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  • #16
    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Where then is the kingdom of God in which we shall dwell with God and God with us?

    Firstfruits
    I guess our differences in when the kingdom of God shall come.

    Luke 22:

    16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

    17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

    Matthew 26:
    29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom

    Acts 10:
    40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
      Where then is the kingdom of God in which we shall dwell with God and God with us?

      Firstfruits

      Jesus answered this same question....

      It began a long time ago...

      Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

      It concludes and is completed at His return.

      II Timothy "4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        This is how I interpret it also. Can't imagine why some folks interpret this non literally.
        We've talked about why that is, so I'm not sure why you can't imagine why some interpret it that way. Can you tell me when you think this will happen:

        2 Peter 3
        10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
        12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
        13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by John146 View Post
          We've talked about why that is, so I'm not sure why you can't imagine why some interpret it that way. Can you tell me when you think this will happen:

          2 Peter 3
          10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
          12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
          13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


          2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
          11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
          12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
          13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
          14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


          The first thing that comes to my mind, why do you treat this passage as 100% literal? If this same passage was in the book of Revelation, my guess would be that you would treat it metaphorically, such as you do with Rev 19 and the feast of the fowls.

          Look at verse 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things. Ok, let's stop there for a second. What is he specifically referring to?

          Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
          It would have to be this.

          And now the rest of that verse. be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
          What is this in relation to?

          10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
          11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
          12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

          Now look at verse 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.

          All of what things shall be dissolved? the earth also and the works that are therein.

          The first question to ask, how are works literally burned up? That couldn't possibly be literal, so why would the part about the earth burning up be literal, if the other part isn't? Why would we treat one part of verse 10 as literal, when we treat another part metaphorically, especially since both parts are in relation to being burned up?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
            I guess our differences in when the kingdom of God shall come.

            Luke 22:

            16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

            17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

            Matthew 26:
            29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom

            Acts 10:
            40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
            41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
            According to the following scripture, John sees the new Jerusalem after the first heaven and earth are passed away. Whether you want to say it is only changed or whatever, it must happen before the New Jerusalem is seen.

            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

            Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

            Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

            God bless you!

            Firstfruits

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
              Jesus answered this same question....

              It began a long time ago...

              Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

              It concludes and is completed at His return.

              II Timothy "4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"
              Would you say that the kingdom of God that Jesus spoke of and the New Jerusalem that John saw are not the same?

              Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

              Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

              Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

              Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

              Are they the same?

              Firstfruits

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
                11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
                12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
                13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
                14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

                The first thing that comes to my mind, why do you treat this passage as 100% literal?
                Because it relates to something that Peter earlier compares to what happened in the flood.

                2 Peter 3
                5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
                6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
                7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

                If this same passage was in the book of Revelation, my guess would be that you would treat it metaphorically, such as you do with Rev 19 and the feast of the fowls.
                You're probably right because Revelation is filled with metaphorical language while 2nd Peter is not. We should interpret scripture based on the style of writing that is being used. We shouldn't always interpret it literally or always interpret it metaphorically. It contains a mix of literal and metaphorical language.

                Look at verse 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things. Ok, let's stop there for a second. What is he specifically referring to?

                Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
                It would have to be this.
                Agree. Wouldn't the new heavens and new earth be the end result of the current heavens and earth burning up?

                And now the rest of that verse. be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
                What is this in relation to?
                It's similar to what he says in verse 11.

                11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

                He's warning them to make sure they are not among those who will have the fire come down upon them on the day of the Lord when the Lord comes.

                10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
                11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
                12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

                Now look at verse 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.

                All of what things shall be dissolved? the earth also and the works that are therein.

                The first question to ask, how are works literally burned up?
                You do realize how funny this is that you are questioning me as to why I'm taking something literally, right? It's usually the other way around.

                Anyway, I believe "the works that are therein" refers to all the things that man has made being burned up (houses, boats, cars, skyscrapers, etc.).

                That couldn't possibly be literal
                I didn't think I'd ever see you say this.

                so why would the part about the earth burning up be literal, if the other part isn't? Why would we treat one part of verse 10 as literal, when we treat another part metaphorically, especially since both parts are in relation to being burned up?
                I believe both are literal. Why was it directly compared to the flood if it's not literal?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                  According to the following scripture, John sees the new Jerusalem after the first heaven and earth are passed away. Whether you want to say it is only changed or whatever, it must happen before the New Jerusalem is seen.

                  Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

                  Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

                  Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

                  God bless you!

                  Firstfruits
                  So you disagree that Jesus drink the fruit of the wine and eat meat with his disciples after his resurrection. When scripture has given eye witnesses. Jesus himself said, that He wouldn't drink the fruit of the wine unto the kingdom of God come, in another verse it says "until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom"

                  We find the eye witnesses account in Acts 10:41
                  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

                  Are you saying He didn't drink the wine in his kingdom???

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                    How do you view the Marriage supper of the Lamb?

                    In Revelation 19 it tells of them that are called and then tells of Christ coming. Given reference to the fowls that come and gather together unto the supper of the great God.

                    Revelation 19:

                    7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
                    8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
                    9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


                    Revelation 19:
                    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
                    18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

                    Can this be view as in the Lord's supper were Jesus spoke of his body that we were are to eat and drink his blood?

                    If not how do you view the Marriage supper?
                    MY COMMENTS: Seemingly, the time is close to the coming of Messiah Jesus, for the Bride of the Lamb (IMO, the believing disciples during Jesus earthly ministry, then during most of the Acts period, and finally those during the tribulation) is getting herself ready for the coming marriage which will take place on the earth, evidently a short time after the return of Christ in power and great glory to defeat his enemies and rescue believing Israelites.

                    While written in the same chapter, the feast prepared for the birds of heaven is when Christ destroys the armies gathered in Armageddon, who then march down to Jerusalem. Yes, it would be metaphorically speaking to say they were destroyed by the 'sword of his mouth', but I believe the death of the Satan led armies, and the feast of the birds on their bodies is literal.

                    If you read carefully Ephesians chapts 1-3 one will see that the future of the body of Christ will be in the heavenlies for the next ages to come (after the rapture). We know that Chrst's millennial reign is the age to come on the earth. Therefore, my friends, the church/body of Christ is not the 'Bride of the Lamb'.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Bick:
                      If you read carefully Ephesians chapts 1-3 one will see that the future of the body of Christ will be in the heavenlies for the next ages to come (after the rapture). We know that Chrst's millennial reign is the age to come on the earth. Therefore, my friends, the church/body of Christ is not the 'Bride of the Lamb'.
                      Note that Ephesians chapters 1-3 do not contradict the fact that the church is the bride of the Lamb, Jesus Christ: "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32).

                      Also, nothing in Ephesians chapters 1-3 contradicts the fact that the church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the coming millennium: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).

                      "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

                      "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4-6).

                      At the second coming of Jesus, the rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds to have a meeting with Jesus in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he kills the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). Then the birds will eat their carcasses (Revelation 19:17-18) while Jesus makes the wedding feast (Revelation 19:9) for the just-resurrected-and-married church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus will then set up his millennal kingdom on the earth with the church and they will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

                      It won't be until after the 1,000 years are over and then the subsequent Gog/Magog event is over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) that the current heaven and earth will be done away at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15; 2 Peter 3:10).

                      After the great white throne judgment, God will create the new heaven and new earth, and New Jerusalem will descend from heaven to the new earth, and the church will then live with God forever in New Jerusalem (the Father's house) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                        So you disagree that Jesus drink the fruit of the wine and eat meat with his disciples after his resurrection. When scripture has given eye witnesses. Jesus himself said, that He wouldn't drink the fruit of the wine unto the kingdom of God come, in another verse it says "until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom"

                        We find the eye witnesses account in Acts 10:41
                        Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

                        Are you saying He didn't drink the wine in his kingdom???
                        I do not disagree that Jesus ate after his resurrection, however Jesus spoke of the new Jerusalem in the regeneration, the new earth.

                        Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

                        God bless you!

                        Firstfruits

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                          I guess our differences in when the kingdom of God shall come.

                          Luke 22:

                          16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

                          17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

                          Matthew 26:
                          29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom

                          Acts 10:
                          40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
                          41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
                          Acts 10 simply states witness to the resurrection. Context. It does not say 'kingdom' as the other verses do. To say Acts 10 is a fulfillment of the other three that say 'kingdom' is pure assumption. The reference in Acts 10, is it to fruit of the vine -wine- and bread? Or fish and bread -Luk 24:42; Joh 21:9-14? We are not told what they drank. If this is fulfillment, where's the wine for confirmation and how did fish get in there?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                            Acts 10 simply states witness to the resurrection. Context. It does not say 'kingdom' as the other verses do. To say Acts 10 is a fulfillment of the other three that say 'kingdom' is pure assumption. The reference in Acts 10, is it to fruit of the vine -wine- and bread? Or fish and bread -Luk 24:42; Joh 21:9-14? We are not told what they drank. If this is fulfillment, where's the wine for confirmation and how did fish get in there?
                            I undestand that assumption.
                            What then is the meaning in verses Luke 22:15-16

                            15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
                            16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until [it] be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

                            What is Jesus refering to when He said "until it" be fulfilled in the kingdom of God?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                              I do not disagree that Jesus ate after his resurrection, however Jesus spoke of the new Jerusalem in the regeneration, the new earth.

                              Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

                              God bless you!

                              Firstfruits
                              Is not Jesus on his throne now? After he ascended.

                              17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                                I undestand that assumption.
                                What then is the meaning in verses Luke 22:15-16

                                15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
                                16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until [it] be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

                                What is Jesus refering to when He said "until it" be fulfilled in the kingdom of God?
                                Did Jesus say the kingdom appointed to Him by the Father is the kingdom He was appointing to them at that time?
                                Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
                                Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
                                Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
                                Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
                                Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
                                Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
                                Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
                                Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
                                No. He said He is appointing them a kingdom of servitude and endurance/patience, that they may eat and drink at His table in His kingdom yet to come. No one gets a free ride. Jesus didn't, why would we? Jesus reigns and will reign because He suffered, endured, and has risen. We follow Christ, or we do not and will not reign with Him after we have risen.

                                The meaning of "I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer" pointed to Him being our Passover sacrifice. There's no reason to think "before" in v15 is then fulfilled in us by His resurrection for we too must serve, suffer, and endure to, in finality, enter the kingdom.
                                Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

                                Comment

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