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  • Discussion Two judgments, two resurrections

    When Jesus comes, he will separate the inhabitants of earth into two groups, those that meet him in the clouds and those that are left behind (eg in the fields). This is a judgment because the population of earth has been judged to be worthy forever, or unworthy forever. This judgment occurs while the earth exists, while clouds and fields exist. This judgment relates to the resurrection of the righteous when we receive our resurrection bodies when we meet Jesus in the clouds.

    Yet there is another judgment and another resurrection that occurs after the earth has passed away:
    20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


    One judgement and resurrection when the earth exists, another judgment and resurrection when the earth has ceased to exist.

    Therefore there are two separate judgments and two seperate resurrections.

  • #2
    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    When Jesus comes, he will separate the inhabitants of earth into two groups, those that meet him in the clouds and those that are left behind (eg in the fields). This is a judgment because the population of earth has been judged to be worthy forever, or unworthy forever. This judgment occurs while the earth exists, while clouds and fields exist. This judgment relates to the resurrection of the righteous when we receive our resurrection bodies when we meet Jesus in the clouds.

    Yet there is another judgment and another resurrection that occurs after the earth has passed away:
    20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


    One judgement and resurrection when the earth exists, another judgment and resurrection when the earth has ceased to exist.

    Therefore there are two separate judgments and two seperate resurrections.
    There is only one judgment.

    They speak of the same judgment which includes two seperate resurrections, first the godly thereafter the ungodly.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
      When Jesus comes, he will separate the inhabitants of earth into two groups, those that meet him in the clouds and those that are left behind (eg in the fields). This is a judgment because the population of earth has been judged to be worthy forever, or unworthy forever. This judgment occurs while the earth exists, while clouds and fields exist. This judgment relates to the resurrection of the righteous when we receive our resurrection bodies when we meet Jesus in the clouds.

      Yet there is another judgment and another resurrection that occurs after the earth has passed away:
      20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
      20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


      One judgement and resurrection when the earth exists, another judgment and resurrection when the earth has ceased to exist.

      Therefore there are two separate judgments and two seperate resurrections.
      Of That day no one knows, but there will only be one.

      Matthew 24:36-44
      36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
      37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
      38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
      39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
      40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
      41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
      42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
      43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
      44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

      Jesus returns as a thief once.

      1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

      1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

      2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

      Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

      Only one second coming.

      Firstfruits

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        When Jesus comes, he will separate the inhabitants of earth into two groups, those that meet him in the clouds and those that are left behind (eg in the fields). This is a judgment because the population of earth has been judged to be worthy forever, or unworthy forever. This judgment occurs while the earth exists, while clouds and fields exist. This judgment relates to the resurrection of the righteous when we receive our resurrection bodies when we meet Jesus in the clouds.
        Those who are left behind will be physically killed just as in Noah's day.

        Matt 24
        37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
        38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
        39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


        The very day that Noah entered into the ark, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers. As Jesus said, "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be". On the day He returns He will physically destroy all unbelievers.

        Yet there is another judgment and another resurrection that occurs after the earth has passed away:
        20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
        20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


        One judgement and resurrection when the earth exists, another judgment and resurrection when the earth has ceased to exist.

        Therefore there are two separate judgments and two seperate resurrections.
        There is only one future judgment day. God has appointed a day to judge the world, not days.

        Acts 17
        30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
        31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

        So, there's one judgment and it will occur on the appointed day. That's it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DurbanDude
          When Jesus comes, he will separate the inhabitants of earth into two groups, those that meet him in the clouds and those that are left behind (eg in the fields) ...
          Well Durb, if getting fried is a judgment, then you are right about the group that gets left behind.
          "Your name and renown
          is the desire of our hearts."
          (Isaiah 26:8)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post

            Jesus returns as a thief once.
            True
            Only one second coming.

            Firstfruits
            True

            One second coming, two judgments, two resurrections.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              There is only one judgment.

              They speak of the same judgment which includes two seperate resurrections, first the godly thereafter the ungodly.
              How can it be the same judgement when one occurs while the earth exists (the great seperation), and one occurs after the earth has ceased to exist?(the judgment of deeds of the dead)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by John146 View Post
                Those who are left behind will be physically killed just as in Noah's day.

                Matt 24
                37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
                39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                The very day that Noah entered into the ark, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers. As Jesus said, "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be". On the day He returns He will physically destroy all unbelievers.

                There is only one future judgment day. God has appointed a day to judge the world, not days.

                Acts 17
                30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
                31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

                So, there's one judgment and it will occur on the appointed day. That's it.
                In your reply, I don't see any explanation for the fact that the two groups are seperated while the earth exists, and yet the great white throne judgment occurs after the earth has ceased. The seperation itself is a judgment, yet this is not the judgment of the deeds of the dead. This seperation judgement is while the unrighteous still live, then they are killed, then they receive judgement, the order of events is clear.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                  Well Durb, if getting fried is a judgment, then you are right about the group that gets left behind.
                  Aah, in a way you are proposing 3 judgements:

                  1) The seperation of the two groups (this has to be a judgement because eternal destinies are established at that moment)
                  2) The judgment of fire on earth (I relate this more specifically to Jehoshaphat, the great winepress, the destruction of the gathered armies of earth, and the great earthquakes and bowls of wrath that destroy most of the earth's population, you probably relate this to all of earth's inhabitants, am I right?)
                  3) the great white throne judgment of all the dead, after earth has passed away.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    True


                    True

                    One second coming, two judgments, two resurrections.
                    How does the following give us two judgments, since Jesus comes back once at judgment day?

                    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

                    Firstfruits

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      How does the following give us two judgments, since Jesus comes back once at judgment day?

                      Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

                      Firstfruits
                      Rewards are only for the righteous, there are no rewards for the unrighteous. The unrighteous only experience the GWT judgement after the earth has passed away. Those rewards are for the resurrected saints who rise up to meet Jesus in the clouds, and then are presented before the Father in heaven.

                      As I have said before,the righteous are resurrected while the earth exists. This is at the second coming.
                      The rest of the dead are resurrected after the earth has passes away, therefore they are not resurrected at the second coming. And why would God give them rewards? Their destiny is the lake of fire.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                        Rewards are only for the righteous, there are no rewards for the unrighteous. The unrighteous only experience the GWT judgement after the earth has passed away. Those rewards are for the resurrected saints who rise up to meet Jesus in the clouds, and then are presented before the Father in heaven.

                        As I have said before,the righteous are resurrected while the earth exists. This is at the second coming.
                        The rest of the dead are resurrected after the earth has passes away, therefore they are not resurrected at the second coming. And why would God give them rewards? Their destiny is the lake of fire.
                        Not according to the following scriptures.

                        2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                        The rewards are heaven or the lake of fire.

                        Matthew 25:32-46
                        32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                        33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                        34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
                        35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
                        36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
                        37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
                        38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
                        39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
                        40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
                        41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
                        42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
                        43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
                        44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
                        45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
                        46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

                        So as you can see there is one gathering for judgment.

                        Firstfruits

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                          Not according to the following scriptures

                          2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
                          Yes we will all appear there, but Jesus comes with rewards when he comes. The order of events for the saints are
                          1) Jesus comes
                          2) the righteous dead come alive- resurrection, while earth exists
                          3) they are immediately presented before the father

                          This is different to the order of events for the unrighteous:
                          1) Jesus comes
                          2) unrighteous are left behind
                          3) they are destroyed by fire
                          4) the earth passes away
                          5) the dead come alive - resurrected
                          6) they are judged at the great white throne judgment
                          7) cast into the lake of fire

                          So agreed, they will all be presented before the judgment seat, but for different reasons at different times.

                          The rewards are heaven or the lake of fire
                          .
                          I would not call the lake of fire a "reward".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                            Matthew 25:32-46
                            32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                            33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                            34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
                            35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
                            36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
                            37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
                            38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
                            39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
                            40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
                            41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
                            42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
                            43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
                            44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
                            45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
                            46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

                            So as you can see there is one gathering for judgment.

                            Firstfruits
                            Hi Firstfruits,

                            When heaven and earth flee away, where are the dead in Christ? They are living resurrected believers. They come alive at the second coming, before the earth flees away.
                            Who then are the dead that come alive after the earth flees away? The righteous dead are all alive, already resurrected at this time. The dead who come alive for the great white throne judgment, HAVE TO BE THE UNRIGHTEOUS DEAD, the righteous dead are alive already, not still dead at that time.

                            20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

                            Therefore going back to the sheep and goats judgment , this includes believers and non-believers (sheep and goats) therefore this HAS TO be referring to the second coming and the seperation of the resurrection of the saints into the clouds, and CANNOT be the great white throne judgment. The great white throne judgment is a judgment of the DEAD, not a judgment of the LIVING.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Yes we will all appear there, but Jesus comes with rewards when he comes. The order of events for the saints are
                              1) Jesus comes
                              2) the righteous dead come alive- resurrection, while earth exists
                              3) they are immediately presented before the father

                              This is different to the order of events for the unrighteous:
                              1) Jesus comes
                              2) unrighteous are left behind
                              3) they are destroyed by fire
                              4) the earth passes away
                              5) the dead come alive - resurrected
                              6) they are judged at the great white throne judgment
                              7) cast into the lake of fire

                              So agreed, they will all be presented before the judgment seat, but for different reasons at different times.

                              .
                              I would not call the lake of fire a "reward".
                              Can you supply the scriptures to the events you have given?

                              Firstfruits

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