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The Ethnos of Antichrist

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  • Discussion The Ethnos of Antichrist

    There is much to say about the nationality of Antichrist. I'm interested to hear some different ideas about where he is from. I humbly request that we not speak of current leaders (in America and the countries abroad) as being the Antichrist (and let's not put the Catholic beliefs on the chopping block ). Let's use scripture to support our ideas.

    From what I can see these are the most popular views concerning his ethnicity:

    1. ) He is Roman - or part of the revived roman empire (European)

    2. ) He is Arab

    3. ) He is Jewish - or at least partially

    4. ) He is Russian


    I believe that there are clues hidden in the bible to his national identity; either the country, but probably the race/people group that he may be from). I find it interesting to examine some of the nations that have persecuted Israel - mainly the ones that are mentioned in Daniel and Revelation.

    For the sake of brevity I'm listing the nations, and their general interpreted identities that are mentioned.

    Egypt - Assyria - Babylon - Medo Persia - Greece - Rome - the 7th empire mentioned by John, possibly Nazi Germany? - Antichrist empire

    I find it interesting to note that after the Babylonian persecution and captivity of the Jews it is mostly European nations that have persecuted the Jewish people (i.e. descendants from Japheth - white people).

    Why is this?

    Psa 2:2, 3 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    David is shown a future, yet not future event. What does that mean? David is not simply shown a future event, but he is given a dual revelation - 1.) of the future Antichrist empire and confederation of armies, and 2.) a view into the heart of man that is set against the Lord Himself.

    The ultimate rebellion of man against God manifests in these 2 ways. The latter is the spirit of the antichrist, while the former being the full manifestation of that spirit - embodied in Antichrist the person.

    We can see from the text that the kings of the earth, who represent humanity at large, have set themselves against God's anointed - Jesus. It goes something like this: God has chosen Jesus to be King; man has rejected God's choice. It is through this reality that mankind will bring forth the ripe fruit of rebellion - a man who is their choice over God's.

    In Genesis 3:15 God told Satan that through the seed of the woman He would ultimately break his dominion. So we know that God's Anointed would come from mankind. In Genesis 9:18-27 Noah (another of God's anointed) is defamed by his son Ham. Ham, in essence, did not agree with God's choice of Noah. God, through the voice of Noah, curses Ham and then gives the blessing to Shem. Japheth is the odd one out; his portion is to dwell in the tents of Shem, or, to be in submission to God's anointed. Therefore, the chosen Seed that would come from Eve now would come through the lineage of Shem.

    Now to refer back to my earlier observation - Japheth then gains strength over his brother Shem and begins to persecute him. We can see this manifest throughout history in many ways.

    Is is possible that through the lineage of Japheth the fullness of mankind's rebellion will rise and give birth to their anointed (chosen) - Antichrist?
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  • #2
    The man of sin will be the vile person of Daniel 11:21 and come back to finish the years that are left for the kings of Babylon.

    So -Jeremiah 25:11 can be over.
    Right now this prophecy sits as started - but now hangs in limbo till the end days of the final week of Daniel 9:27.
    where a he
    shall desolate Jerusalem

    Iraq
    http://prophecyinsights.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
      The man of sin will be the vile person of Daniel 11:21 and come back to finish the years that are left for the kings of Babylon.

      So -Jeremiah 25:11 can be over.
      Right now this prophecy sits as started - but now hangs in limbo till the end days of the final week of Daniel 9:27.
      where a he
      shall desolate Jerusalem

      Iraq
      Iraq is the Antichrist? Or AC is Iraqi?

      The desolations of Jer. 25:11 were already fulfilled by the 70 years of Jewish captivity in Babylon and subsequent release. Daniel sees the 70 years in captivity coming to end as prophesied by Jeremiah, so he prays that the word would come to pass. It did, and Israel was released at the fall of Babylon to the hands of the Persians, thereby fulfilling the 70 years of desolations prophesied by Jeremiah.
      From Azubah to Hephzibah.

      Comment


      • #4
        Nazi Germany was a type of end time antichrist [Hitler] rule and state worship of the beast [Nazi party] but obviously not THE coming antichrist and worldwide beast power. Hitler created a state religion that all loyal Germans had to follow to prove their allegiance to him. Watch the History channel series on Hitler and how he rose to power and was able to convince a whole nation to hate Jews. It's a real eye opener. I'd like to add another possible candidate to the list, a resurging 4th reich under German rule now that germany is reunited and growing stronger all the time as a leading nation in the EU. If you do a little digging you will find germanic people are indeed descendants of the Assyrians.
        JESUS CHRIST, often imitated, never duplicated.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Marc B View Post
          Nazi Germany was a type of end time antichrist [Hitler] rule and state worship of the beast [Nazi party] but obviously not THE coming antichrist and worldwide beast power. Hitler created a state religion that all loyal Germans had to follow to prove their allegiance to him. Watch the History channel series on Hitler and how he rose to power and was able to convince a whole nation to hate Jews. It's a real eye opener. I'd like to add another possible candidate to the list, a resurging 4th reich under German rule now that germany is reunited and growing stronger all the time as a leading nation in the EU. If you do a little digging you will find germanic people are indeed descendants of the Assyrians.
          Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

          Indeed. All who seek understanding of Antichrist should do some study into the 3rd Reich.

          I think the Assyrians are actually descendant from Shem. I believe that the descendants of Shem make up most of what are now Jews and Arabs. Where can I find more info on Germanic tribes descending from Assyria?

          Here's an interesting site that has some info on the table of nations from Gen 10 - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGham.htm. Please note I do not support or oppose the views expressed on this website.
          Last edited by Joyfulparousia; Sep 5th 2008, 01:30 PM. Reason: added website link
          From Azubah to Hephzibah.

          Comment


          • #6
            Antichrist's Hijacking of Islam, Part One of Two

            Antichrist’s Hijacking of Islam



            First, a word about the Koran (or Q’uran or however you wish to spell it): Please understand that I do not place for one instant any sort of authority in the Koran’s pronouncements such as I would give to the Bible. It is not the Word of God or anything close to it. However, most Christians would agree that Islam is a creation of Satan’s, so perhaps the Koran might offer some insights into the Satanic mindset. In fact, Mohammed’s personal account of how he was given the contents of the Koran is quite remarkable in this regard. History tells us that Mohammed was at least somewhat acquainted with the contents of the Old Testament and at least part of the New Testament, so he knew of Biblical stories of encounters with angels among other things. Invariably whenever an angel appears in the Bible, the first thing they do is to reassure the person they are visiting and to calm any fears they might have. (“Fear not.”) They do not want the person to be alarmed and to consequently miss the message. However, Mohammed’s account describes sleeping in a cave and being violently startled and grabbed harshly by an angelic creature who actually strangled him almost to the point of blacking out. Not surprisingly, Mohammed said he was terrified. This creature introduced himself as “Gabriel”. (Does this sound like the Gabriel who appeared to Daniel and later to Mary?) Rather than attempting to calm Mohammed down, “Gabriel” spoke to him in a very condescending, insulting manner and ordered him to share the contents of what Mohammed was told in this encounter. Mohammed was threatened with dire consequences if he failed to do so. He claimed that words appeared in his mind that he was compelled to pass on. These words supposedly make up a substantial portion of the Koran. For a time afterwards, Mohammed was convinced that he was “demon-possessed”. This hardly seems like the story that a person acquainted with the Old Testament would manufacture. It is so different from the Biblical accounts that it would seem to make Mohammed’s account unlikely if he were simply trying to give added credibility to his teachings. In addition, Muslims try their best to keep this account of Mohammed’s out of public knowledge. Salmon Rushdie’s infamous book, The Satanic Verses, actually discusses this account of Mohammed’s and this is precisely why the ayatollahs sentenced Rushdie to death. The reason that book is called “The Satanic Verses” is because it discusses the possibility of at least part of the Koran coming directly from Satan himself. Why do the Muslims feel so threatened by this story if they don’t believe there is any truth to it? Wouldn’t they simply dismiss it out of hand as being the imagination of “infidels”? If there is any truth to Mohammed’s account, it could be easily argued that he had a direct encounter with a demon, if not with Satan himself. (More details about the “Satanic Verses” can be found at http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm . So with this information, it is possible that the Koran could be viewed, to a certain extent, as being demonically inspired. That is why the Koran could offer some insight into the Satanic mindset. (More details, including information from actual Islamic teachings regarding this incident, can be found at http://answering-islam.org/Silas/demons.htm.) So going on from there, I’ll tell you what I have learned about Islamic “prophecy”.

            (Please remember my earlier statement that I do not consider Islamic “prophecy” to be genuine. It is not to taken as any kind of divine revelation. For those who understand the Bible to be the only true Word of God, Islamic “prophecy’s” only use is to get insider information about Satan and his mindset.)

            The whole purpose behind Iran’s efforts to cause so much trouble around the world is to hasten the appearance of a person from Islamic theology called the “Mahdi” (pronounced “mah-dee´”). (Their president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has specifically said so publicly many times, including during a speech to the United Nations General Assembly on September 26, 2007.) The Mahdi is essentially Islam’s Messiah, to borrow the Jewish term. (In fact, if you were speaking to a Muslim and referred to the Mahdi as Islam’s “Messiah” they would usually agree with you that the usage is appropriate and would have no problem with it.) There are a number of prophecies about the Mahdi in the Koran and in another set of Islamic teachings called the “Hadiths”. The Hadiths are a set of oral teachings from Mohammed that were not recorded as early as the writings in the Koran. Therefore, they are not considered to be word-for-word inviolate such as the Koran’s writings, but their substance is considered to be just as “holy” and sacred. The Hadiths have become standardized over the years and for all intents and purposes are studied by faithful Muslims just as diligently as the Koran itself. Between these two different sources we get a fairly detailed set of prophecies about the Mahdi including these highlights: (Please remember, these are not what I say, but rather are what Islamic theology says.)

            1. The Mahdi has (supposedly) already been alive once a number of centuries ago, but died prematurely when he “fell down a well”. His appearance would constitute a supposed return from the dead.
            2. The Mahdi will appear in a time of great stress in the world (hence Iran’s efforts to deliberately cause great stress in the world – this is why Iran appears to be unresponsive to reason – in their way of thinking, they are behaving entirely logically).
            3. The Mahdi will be the “wisest” person who has ever lived.
            4. He will be a direct descendant of Mohammed. (There are direct descendants of Mohammed known to be living at this moment, including the King of Jordan among others.)
            5. The Mahdi will take over many different nations in the Middle Eastern area.
            6. The world will be amazed at the Mahdi’s wisdom, skills at problem solving, and diplomacy.
            7. The entire world will give themselves up to the Mahdi.
            8. His career will last for somewhere between 7 - 9 years.
            9. The Mahdi will make a treaty with the west that will be for exactly seven years and this treaty will be moderated by a Jew of the priestly line of Aaron. (Remember, this is what Islamic theology says. Does this remind you of Daniel 9:27? It is indeed possible today to identify the Aaronic priestly line. There are Jews throughout the world with the surname “Cohen” and other names very similar. This name has been used since the Roman dispersion of 70 AD to identify the priestly line for future use.)
            10. Muslims believe the Mahdi is represented in the book of Revelation in a passage that has not been a victim of the rampant corruption and distortions that Muslims say pollute much of the rest of the Bible. This passage is Revelation 6:2 – “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” (Apparently, it doesn’t seem to bother Muslims that this passage is claimed by Christians to refer to the Antichrist. It is very interesting that the author of the Koran/Hadiths would choose to represent the Mahdi with this passage.)
            11. The Mahdi will establish his world capital in Kufa, Iraq (which is about fifty miles north of Babylon and about fifty miles south of Baghdad).
            12. He will later move his seat of power to Jerusalem after he conquers the Jews.
            13. He will be very successful at convincing Jews and Christians to convert to Islam (not necessarily voluntarily). (Again, remember, this is what Islam teaches, not me.) Curiously, the Islamic prophecies only mention these two particular religions, Christianity and Judaism. Buddhism, Hinduism and other belief systems are completely ignored. This would only make sense in a system that was designed for the express purpose of opposing the true God of Judaism and Christianity, since the other religions would not be considered a threat by Satan.
            14. At the end of the seven year treaty, he will defeat the “Dajjal”, Islam’s equivalent of the Antichrist. (Remember this person, he’ll be important in a few minutes.)
            15. The Mahdi’s reign will be a time of unparalleled peace, tranquility, and prosperity throughout the world.

            Wait, there’s more. There’s another personality in this scenario I need to tell you about. His name is “Isa”. A Muslim speaking to an English-speaking Christian of this person would call him “Jesus”. Muslims are convinced that this person, “Isa”, is the true Jesus that is written about in our New Testament, except that our New Testament is supposedly full of distortions and fantasies that have been added over the years. The prophecies about “Isa” are just as astounding as the ones about the Mahdi.

            1. Isa will appear on the world scene shortly after the Mahdi and will recognize the Mahdi as having authority superior to his own.
            2. He will (supposedly) be an actual Jew claiming to be the real, actual Jesus, returned from Heaven. (Notice in Revelation 13:11 that the second beast called the False Prophet is seen to rise up out of the “land” as opposed to the first beast who comes from the sea. The sea is representative of the Gentile world and this reference to the second beast coming out of the “land” is usually taken to mean that this beast is Jewish. This would fit perfectly.)
            3. He will “refute” the centuries-old belief that he died on a cross for people’s sins. He will claim that, in fact, he didn’t even really die on the cross at all, rather that he was lifted up off the cross, still alive, into heaven where he has been waiting all this time to return to assist the Mahdi and to finish out his normal lifespan.
            4. He will insist that everyone in the entire world either follow the Mahdi’s teachings or be killed and will abolish Christianity altogether. He will also be especially vicious in his determination to kill the “infidel” Jews who do not convert. (Nice way to treat the relatives, huh?)

            Wait, there’s one last person I need to introduce you to in this Islamic scenario. I mentioned him in the list about the Mahdi: he’s called the “Dajjal” and he is Islam’s equivalent of the Antichrist. See if you can figure out who this is….. The Dajjal will appear at the end of the seven year treaty in the sky over Israel. He will be sent by “Satan” to oppose the “righteous” Mahdi and Isa. He will be accompanied by myriads of “demons” who will be determined to defeat the forces of the “one true god” (Allah), but he will be immediately defeated by the Mahdi through the power of Allah. Hmm, I wonder who that could be?

            Now, I ask you: What are the chances of an uneducated Bedouin like Mohammed coming up with stuff like that on his own without any help? Up until his “encounter”, Mohammed had simply been like all the other Arabs of his day, worshiping a polytheistic system in the Arabian peninsula that was centered around a “magic rock” located in the city of Mecca. (Today, this “magic rock” is Islam’s holiest shrine.) People who knew Mohammed described him as being a successful business person and rather charismatic, but certainly nothing of historical importance or any great religious fervor. His family was moderately wealthy, and he was pretty much just running the family business. Then suddenly, he comes up with all this. And how could he possibly have come up with such a perfect opposite of the prophecies in Revelation? Even Christians of that day (ca. 600 AD) were having so much trouble understanding Revelation that it was subsequently doomed to centuries of being misinterpreted as mostly an “allegorical” work that nobody could understand. It seems very plausible that he had help, just as he said in his account of how he came up with the Koran.

            So based on this information, here are some general conclusions that seem reasonable –

            (to be continued.....)
            ----------------------------------------------
            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

            Comment


            • #7
              Antichrist's Hijacking of Islam, Part Two of Two

              So based on this information, here are some general conclusions that seem reasonable –

              1. Islam is not going to “go away”, in fact it’s going to (briefly) rule the world.
              2. The “West” will either fall or will go along willingly, including the United States.
              3. We won’t have to wait for the antichrist to come along to see people being beheaded – Muslims have already been doing it for centuries, and the beheadings of Revelation will simply be a continuation of an old practice, but far more widespread. (And Muslims don’t use guillotines to make it quick and painless either.)
              4. The Antichrist’s changing of the “set times and the laws” mentioned at Daniel 7:25 will be the “Mahdi” imposing Sharia Law on the world along with Islam’s lunar calendar as opposed to our more traditional solar calendar. Islam is the only religion in the world that has the stated goal (among others) of imposing its calendar on conquered peoples. Buddhists and Hindus and all other religious systems have no interest in changing their subjects’ calendars. Islam is unique in this regard. This is further evidence that the true Biblical Antichrist will have an Islamic origin, because it is the only belief system in existence today that explains this prophecy of Daniel’s.
              5. The teaching of the Antichrist being “Roman” (based on Daniel 9:26) is no problem for this scenario. The Roman Empire, at its greatest extent, went all the way to today’s eastern boundary of Iraq. In addition, there were three Roman legions that destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The largest legion was the 5th Legion, the “Legio V Macedonica”. This was a conscript army, meaning the soldiers were drawn from a particular region. The legion usually bore the name of the region from which the soldiers were drawn. The Legio V Macedonica had soldiers from all over Syria, Jordan, Arabia, Modern Iraq and Iran, and other parts of the Middle East. The actual people (to use the same word as Daniel 9:26) who destroyed the “city and the sanctuary” (as predicted by Daniel) were indeed working for Rome, but they were from areas that are currently Islamic.

              There are a few more things I should explain to answer some inevitable questions that would very appropriately come up. The first is about Mystery Babylon. How is there a connection between Revelation 17’s “Mystery Babylon” and Islam? They seem quite different in our traditional understanding of the two. The old pagan polytheistic system of the tower of Babel would seem, at first, to be quite different from monotheistic Islam and this actually threw me off for quite some time until I did a little reading up. Here are some things I learned: The chief deity in the old Babylonian system was the moon god. The moon was considered to be at its holiest when it was in the crescent stage. (Sound familiar?) One of the most common names given to this moon god was “Al-lah”. So there is indeed a direct connection between today’s Islam and Mystery Babylon. When Mohammed received his “revelation” from “Gabriel”, he concluded that he had received information from the “one true god” and that there could be no other god. So he took the name of the most prominent among the gods he had been familiar with for all of his life, “Al-lah”, and simply crossed the other “gods” off the list. Islam was not at all a totally new religion based on some new wisdom that Mohammed came up with as is often believed, but rather is simply a redressing and refinement of the old polytheism that had been around since before the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

              The next question that needs answering is what about Revelation 17:16, where the beast and the ten kings destroy Mystery Babylon? How could Islam’s most powerful leader of all time destroy his own religion? This has to do with the nature of Allah, as taught to Muslims. You might already be aware that any good Muslim would consider it to be the worst form of blasphemy to suggest that Allah has any sort of physical form. In fact, this is their biggest problem with Christianity, because we claim that a man (Jesus) is God in the flesh. This is anathema to Muslims. Here is the explanation: Anybody who has studied history knows that any human who rises to a position of incredible power lets it go to his head. (“Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”) Hitler, Stalin, and Napoleon are only three examples of this. The Antichrist/Mahdi will be no exception. Halfway through the Tribulation, he will present himself to the world and proclaim that “Oh, by the way, I’m Allah in the flesh.” The first questions a lot of people (including me) would have are “But how could he get away with that? Wouldn’t every Muslim in the world turn on him?”

              The first point that needs to be remembered is that while the Antichrist accomplishes much in the first half of the seven years of his rule, he does not actually demand to be worshiped until after the middle point of the seven years. It will not be until after the Antichrist has achieved several significant victories and gained a great measure of allegiance that he will establish his position of authority in the Jerusalem temple. It is at this time that Paul explains how Antichrist will “set himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4) This is also the time that Paul said, “the man of lawlessness is revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) While many Christians with discernment will already have recognized the Antichrist by this point, it will not be until the middle of the seven years that the Bible says he will be fully “revealed.”

              We need to understand that the Antichrist will not demand worship until well after he has been universally acknowledged and accepted by the Islamic world as the “Mahdi”. The Imams, mullahs, sheikhs, and the Ayatollahs, indeed all of the world’s Islamic leadership will have given their allegiance to him. To deny him at this point would be the ultimate shame for Islam. It would come at a time when Islam will universally be experiencing its greatest rush of vindication and fulfillment. In the midst of all of this incredible elation, to suddenly declare and acknowledge that an absolutely evil charlatan has deceived the entire Islamic world would be unthinkable. Once the deception has taken place it will be impossible to undo. The hook will have been set.

              There will be other very important factors at play here as well. Throughout this time period, the False Prophet, whom the Islamic world will believe to be Jesus, will be working as the Antichrist’s miracle-working “campaign manager” as it were. As Paul the apostle says:

              The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

              The followers of the Mahdi/Antichrist will be already in a deep spiritual state of deception. Add on some miracles that the Bible says will accompany the Antichrist’s career and most people will buy it hook, line, and sinker. When he asks the Islamic community to accept him as Allah in the flesh, most of the world’s people will be happy to accept it based on what will appear to them to be incontrovertible evidence.

              So this is the fulfillment of Revelation 17:16, because the antichrist will no longer be satisfied with the political power of being Allah’s chief representative on Earth. He will decide that he wants to be acknowledged AS Allah. Anybody who opposes him in this will no doubt be destroyed, even if they had previously been a faithful follower.

              (I should pause briefly to clarify something about this statement that I made a few paragraphs ago: “While many Christians with discernment will already have recognized the Antichrist by this point, it will not be until the middle of the seven years that the Bible says he will be fully ‘revealed.’”

              There could be some confusion concerning when the Antichrist is “revealed”. When I say that the Antichrist is fully revealed at the middle of the seven years, that does not mean that he is not partially revealed prior to that point. In fact, people who are familiar with Biblical prophecy could possibly even be able to recognize the Antichrist as soon as he appears on the scene, perhaps even prior to the Tribulation. Certainly, with the commencement of the seven year covenant of Daniel 9:27 (which would seem to be parallel with the seven-year treaty predicted for the Mahdi in Islamic theology), anybody familiar with the prophecies of the Tribulation should be able to recognize this individual as the Antichrist at that point. However, many who are not familiar with the Biblical prophecies might not recognize him for who he is until he seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself as “god” (or as “Allah” in the flesh). It will be at this point that the revealing of who he really is will be completed and he will be fully revealed, even to those who had not already figured it out. It will be at that point that the entire world will have to choose sides and accept or reject his “Mark of the Beast”.

              It should also be clarified that the prophecy about the Mahdi being successful at converting Christians and Jews is not what I say, it’s what the Islamic prophecies say. It would seem likely that “Christians” who actually convert to Islam will be those who claimed to be Christian but never had an actual saving experience with the real Jesus. This would be part of Revelation’s exhortations to “patient endurance”.)

              This Mahdi-as-Antichrist scenario also explains a passage that most modern prophecy teachers have never been able to really deal with – Daniel 11:37-38.

              “And unto the god of his fathers he doth not attend, nor to the desire of women, yea, to any god he doth not attend, for against all he magnifieth himself. And to the god of strongholds, on his station, he giveth honour; yea, to a god whom his fathers knew not he giveth honour, with gold, and with silver, and with precious stone, and with desirable things.”

              In the Mahdi-as-Antichrist scenario this otherwise-confusing passage makes perfect sense: He will reject the traditional worship of Allah that his ancestors have practiced and will instead put himself in Allah’s place. He will in essence “hijack” Islam for his own purposes. The religion that has been most associated with hijacking over the years will, in the end, become the biggest hijacking victim of all time. It will be Antichrist’s Hijacking of Islam.

              In addition, it is well known that Muslims’ treatment of women under Sharia Law is inhumanly cruel and barbaric, including the practice of polygamy, hence his ignoring the “desire of women”. As the ruler of the Middle East, he will be in control of the world’s oil supply which will give him a limitless supply of cash and his obsession with power as the world’s leader will lead him to amass incredible military strength to be at his beck and call.

              So now you know how Islam and the Mahdi fit into the big picture of Biblical prophecy.

              If you would like further information about Islamic prophecies concerning the Mahdi, Isa, and the Dajjal, there is an excellent online book that goes into much greater detail at this web address:

              http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/index.htm
              ----------------------------------------------
              When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Whoa - that's a lot of info to chew on and consider;

                For me, the most relevant and prominent passage that nails the "ethnic" identity of the Antichrist is Micah 5:5-7 -

                And this One shall be peace.
                When the Assyrian comes into our land,
                And when he treads in our palaces,
                Then we will raise against him
                Seven shepherds and eight princely men.
                6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria,
                And the land of Nimrod at its entrances;
                Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian,
                When he comes into our land
                And when he treads within our borders.
                7 Then the remnant of Jacob
                Shall be in the midst of many peoples,
                Like dew from the LORD,
                Like showers on the grass,
                That tarry for no man
                Nor wait for the sons of men.


                I included other portions of the passage in case anyone wanted to casually throw in a "Hey! That's been fulfilled!" Point being, the rest of the passage points to a "future Assyrian" leader that will trample Israel and her people; speaking directly to, IMO, the ethnic background of the Antichrist.

                Politically, the traditional "Roman" viewpoint doesn't seem to hold water either, as Daniel 9 isn't that clear that the Roman people were even in view in the passage; it is just as likely that the passage could have been speaking of the prince of the Syrian people - or the actual Messiah himself, depending on how you interpret the passage.

                I really appreciated the OP, however - very helpful perspective on the Gen. 9 passage.
                The Rookie

                Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Joyfulparousia View Post
                  Psa 2:2, 3 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

                  David is shown a future, yet not future event. What does that mean? David is not simply shown a future event, but he is given a dual revelation - 1.) of the future Antichrist empire and confederation of armies, and 2.) a view into the heart of man that is set against the Lord Himself.
                  Read Acts 4. Peter quotes this psalm in reference to Herod, Pilate, and the grouping of Gentiles and Jews who had met together to put a stop to Jesus' ministry. Peter interpreted it's fulfillment as having taken place during the time that Jesus was on this earth.

                  Meaning... Psalm 2:2-3 has already been fulfilled, and it had nothing to do with the antichrist.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    Read Acts 4. Peter quotes this psalm in reference to Herod, Pilate, and the grouping of Gentiles and Jews who had met together to put a stop to Jesus' ministry. Peter interpreted it's fulfillment as having taken place during the time that Jesus was on this earth.

                    Meaning... Psalm 2:2-3 has already been fulfilled, and it had nothing to do with the antichrist.
                    Peter never called it a fulfillment - and it's not the fulfillment - that's at the 2nd Coming.
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                    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                      Peter never called it a fulfillment - and it's not the fulfillment - that's at the 2nd Coming.
                      Why do you believe it's referring to the second coming? If Peter specifically quoted that verse in reference to a specific event... that indicates "fulfillment", or at least "correlation." Otherwise, why would he quote it if it had nothing to do with the event he was referring to?

                      So... why do you believe it's referring to the second coming when Peter used the verse to speak of an event in his past, and not to refer to an event in his future?
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                        Peter never called it a fulfillment - and it's not the fulfillment - that's at the 2nd Coming.
                        Look at the Acts fulfillment and its wording.

                        Psalmic quotation in blue:
                        Notice however, the specific markers Peter uses outside of the Psalms quote; that place the venue in 1st Century A.D. with Jesus' 1st Advent:


                        Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, (Psalms quote starts) Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
                        (Psalms quote ends) 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

                        Peter re-quotes the part about the kings and gentiles being gathered together against Christ; and includes by name Herod and Pontius Pilate.

                        Herod and Pontius Pilate are not going to stand again a second time in the future against Christ, and again gather Israel and the Gentiles against Him.

                        Peter was pretty dadgum clear on this prophetic fulfillment; because he used very specific 1st century names to point to the fulfillment of the Psalmic prophecy.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by markedward View Post
                          Why do you believe it's referring to the second coming? If Peter specifically quoted that verse in reference to a specific event... that indicates "fulfillment", or at least "correlation." Otherwise, why would he quote it if it had nothing to do with the event he was referring to?
                          I would agree completely that there is certainly a correlation - just not fulfillment.
                          Originally posted by markedward View Post
                          So... why do you believe it's referring to the second coming when Peter used the verse to speak of an event in his past, and not to refer to an event in his future?
                          Because Psalm 2 portrays Christ as ruling the world with a rod of iron - and that ain't happened yet.
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                          When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                            Look at the Acts fulfillment and its wording.

                            Psalmic quotation in blue:
                            Notice however, the specific markers Peter uses outside of the Psalms quote; that place the venue in 1st Century A.D. with Jesus' 1st Advent:


                            Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, (Psalms quote starts) Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
                            (Psalms quote ends) 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

                            Peter re-quotes the part about the kings and gentiles being gathered together against Christ; and includes by name Herod and Pontius Pilate.

                            Herod and Pontius Pilate are not going to stand again a second time in the future against Christ, and again gather Israel and the Gentiles against Him.

                            Peter was pretty dadgum clear on this prophetic fulfillment; because he used very specific 1st century names to point to the fulfillment of the Psalmic prophecy.
                            He used those names as examples of how the application of Psalm 2 was appropriate at that moment, but that doesn't make this event the final fulfillment of Psalm 2.
                            ----------------------------------------------
                            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                            • #15
                              I'm honestly confused right here.

                              Your signature quote says "When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense." The plain and simple sense of why Peter quoted two verses and then explicitly followed that passage up by referring to events that fit those two verses to the T shows that he was interpreting those two verses as being fulfilled by that event. That is the "plain sense" of what Peter was saying.

                              Claiming "Peter was just saying their names as examples," despite that Peter never indicated as such, and that "Those verses speak of the second coming," despite that Peter applied them to the first coming, means you're entirely reaching for a meaning other than the "plain sense" of what was being said.
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