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  • #76
    Re: The White Horse

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    What do you mean by a "foreign" conqueror?

    God's wrath is indicated by the 7 vials not of these four horseman. This is wrath from Satan.

    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
    The wrath is from God. See Romans 2:5, Colossians 3:6, 1 Thess 2:16, etc.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: The White Horse

      Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
      What do you mean by a "foreign" conqueror?

      God's wrath is indicated by the 7 vials not of these four horseman. This is wrath from Satan.

      And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
      Foreign because he is a conqueror, and a king does not conquer his own land.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: The White Horse

        Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
        The wrath is from God. See Romans 2:5, Colossians 3:6, 1 Thess 2:16, etc.
        Rom 2
        5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

        The "day" spoken here is the "day" of the Lord revealed from above ie the second coming. Notice the four seals are already opened before this day!

        12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
        16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
        17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: The White Horse

          Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
          I agree with the first part of your statement, that the seals match up with the beginning of birth pangs of Matthew 24.

          I disagree with the second part of your statement (saying these occurred in the events surrounding 70ad) because of the following:

          --Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 are "the beginning of birth pangs" (in all three passages, though only "named" as such in the first two of these passages and only "described" in the third of these passages);

          --in the third of these 3 passages (Lk21:8-11; SAME "beginning of birth pangs"), verse 12 goes on to say, "But BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE all these 'beginning of birth pangs']" the following section of things MUST OCCUR FIRST (and in vv.12-24a describes "the events surrounding 70ad," with v.24b following on from there); this means that "the events surrounding 70ad" MUST come "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs that were just listed [and incld'g v.24's "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"];

          --in Matthew 24, that portion of His Olivet Discourse STARTS OFF with "the beginning of birth pangs" (which are the equivalent of Lk21:8-11; and recall, these come AFTER "the events surrounding 70ad" [incld'g "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"]) and after STARTING with "the beginning of birth pangs" (which are the equivalent of the "seals") goes on to tell what FOLLOWS THOSE (including the verses 15-21 re: "then shall be GREAT tribulation" i.e. what kicks off the mid-point of the 7-yrs);

          --this means that the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Luke 21:12-24a's section re: "the events surrounding 70ad" is NOT THE SAME "SEE-then-FLEE" of Matthew 24 (which is the "far-future" one, that FOLLOWS "the beginning of birth pangs" rather than PRECEDES "the beginning of birth pangs" as in the Lk21:12-24a section!) Completely distinct!

          --Revelation 1:1 says, "...things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (comp 1:1 with the wording in both 1:19c and 4:1 each re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book, and one can see that from 4:1 [and the Seals of chpt 6] ALL that follows that point "fits" into the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [the 7-yrs], RATHER THAN something that unfolds upon the earth over the course of some 2000 years, as we could say of 1:19b [/chpts 2-3; "the things WHICH ARE"] instead [which indeed is the longer period of time, some 2000 yrs approx.])

          --these SEQUENCE issues are consistent with the same, in other passages (relating)

          --I conclude that the SEALS (i.e. "the beginning of birth pangs") do not START until the BEGINNING of the future 7-yr period; and that ALL of Matthew 24 takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture (all of it taking place WITHIN the future trib years [7]); and that the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"; 2Th2:9a,8a,3b [/Dan9:27a(26)--"for ONE WEEK"])]" is, of course, the FIRST of those [i.e. SEAL #1], with many more "birth pangs [plural]" to follow on from there, also in the trib years]


          When we pay close attention to the SEQUENCE issues of the various Olivet Discourse passages, it becomes clear that "the 70ad section" is not the equivalent of the "far-future section," though a number of things are very similar-sounding!
          The reason that there are some differences in Matthew 24 Mark 13 Luke 17 & 21 is because Matthew, Mark And Luke were not present when Jesus said these words only Peter James Andrew and John were present

          Jesus was telling the four deciples (Jesus was talking to them and used the word you) in verse 12 that they would be persecuted before 70 AD and we see some of that in the book of acts and know what happens to them in history.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: The White Horse

            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            Rom 2
            5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

            The "day" spoken here is the "day" of the Lord revealed from above ie the second coming. Notice the four seals are already opened before this day!

            12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
            16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
            17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
            Yes, and the wrath is from God. The four horsemen is a warning about a coming conquering king who will bring war, famine and death.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: The White Horse

              Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
              Yes, and the wrath is from God. The four horsemen is a warning about a coming conquering king who will bring war, famine and death.
              The four horseman are not a warning. How can you say such? These kings do physical harm. These kings are evil and not the wrath of God!

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: The White Horse

                Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                Yes, and the wrath is from God. The four horsemen is a warning about a coming conquering king who will bring war, famine and death.
                Are you suggesting God does not kill or send war and destruction? There are too many examples to cite, but one that puts it clearest I think is Matt 10:28 -- “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: The White Horse

                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  The four horseman are not a warning. How can you say such? These kings do physical harm. These kings are evil and not the wrath of God!
                  God uses evil people in their own evil ways to do HIs will

                  Revelation 17:16
                  16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: The White Horse

                    Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                    God uses evil people in their own evil ways to do HIs will

                    Revelation 17:16
                    16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled
                    I agree but that does not mean it is God's wrath, there is evil in the world today but is it God's wrath? No.

                    God's wrath are in the 7 vials a short period of time prior to the second coming.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: The White Horse

                      [QUOTE=ross3421;3542107]

                      God's wrath is indicated by the 7 vials not these four horseman.
                      These 4 horsemen clearly bring divine wrath.

                      Rev 6.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

                      Originally posted by ross
                      "operating through'?. Rather these four horseman are four kings in Satan's government whereas the four living creatures are four king's in God's government. They are opposing forces.

                      Yes they are angelic (spirit) outside this realm but men on earth.

                      Satan's government is a counterfeit of God's.
                      I don't see anywhere that the 4 horsemen are called "Satan's henchmen?"

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: The White Horse

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        I agree but that does not mean it is God's wrath, there is evil in the world today but is it God's wrath? No.

                        God's wrath are in the 7 vials a short period of time prior to the second coming.
                        He causes his sun to shine on evil people and good people. He sends rain on those who do right and those who don’t. In other words, God sends good and bad things to both good and bad people. That's not evil, that's testing.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: The White Horse

                          Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                          I agree but that does not mean it is God's wrath, there is evil in the world today but is it God's wrath? No.

                          God's wrath are in the 7 vials a short period of time prior to the second coming.
                          But it was Gods wrath on Babylon the great see the verses below

                          revelation 14:"8-11
                          8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

                          9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: The White Horse

                            [QUOTE=randyk;3542709]
                            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                            These 4 horsemen clearly bring divine wrath.

                            Rev 6.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
                            I look at this a little differently. I do not necessarily believe that the horsemen(s) were the ones bringing forth the wrath, but the wrath was more so as a result of what was set forth in each of the seals. The seals determined what was coming down the pipeline, so to speak.

                            If you read in the book of Zechariah, there are horseman that bear a similar resemblance to those in Revelation. Here, an angel of the Lord told Zechariah regarding the horseman, "These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth." So these were messengers of the Lord who traveled up and down making assessment of the conditions. It seams as though the wrath was carried out by the angel of the Lord, who was most likely the "Word" of God. I believe the same is true for Revelation and the 1st of the (4) seals.

                            Zechariah 1:
                            7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
                            8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
                            9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
                            10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
                            11 And they answered the angel of the Lord that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

                            In Zechariah 6, you can read more about similar horseman with chariots that bear a similar resemblance.

                            I don't see anywhere that the 4 horsemen are called "Satan's henchmen?"
                            I agree, I do not think they were Satan's henchmen.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: The White Horse

                              Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
                              I look at this a little differently. I do not necessarily believe that the horsemen(s) were the ones bringing forth the wrath, but the wrath was more so as a result of what was set forth in each of the seals. The seals determined what was coming down the pipeline, so to speak.

                              If you read in the book of Zechariah, there are horseman that bear a similar resemblance to those in Revelation. Here, an angel of the Lord told Zechariah regarding the horseman, "These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth." So these were messengers of the Lord who traveled up and down making assessment of the conditions. It seams as though the wrath was carried out by the angel of the Lord, who was most likely the "Word" of God. I believe the same is true for Revelation and the 1st of the (4) seals.

                              Zechariah 1:
                              7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
                              8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
                              9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
                              10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
                              11 And they answered the angel of the Lord that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

                              In Zechariah 6, you can read more about similar horseman with chariots that bear a similar resemblance.

                              I agree, I do not think they were Satan's henchmen.
                              Yes, the horses in Zechariah prepared the way for the fulfillment of prophecy in his time. And I believe, if I remember right, that those horses represented military actions that enabled a temporary peace on the earth. War quiets those who represent obstacles in God's path.

                              In that sense, the 4 horsemen do represent a form of God's Wrath for me. They are preparing the way for the Kingdom of God by quieting those who are obstacles to God's Kingdom. The world has been trying to set up their own kingdom--their own "Babel," if you will? And God is destroying this pseudo-civilization. They are, in my opinion, God's angels of destruction.

                              In the garden of Eden it was God's angel who God used to prevent Man from getting back into the Garden and prevented him from eating of the tree of life. This was judgment, to prevent the eternal establishment of a false kingdom.

                              But when the Kingdom is based on Christ, the angels will be in favor of it. Only Satan's angels will be in opposition to it. These 4 horsemen are working to further the cause of God's Kingdom, and not working against it. They are prohibiting the Kingdom of Man, in order to make way for the Kingdom of Christ.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: The White Horse

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                Yes, the horses in Zechariah prepared the way for the fulfillment of prophecy in his time. And I believe, if I remember right, that those horses represented military actions that enabled a temporary peace on the earth. War quiets those who represent obstacles in God's path.

                                In that sense, the 4 horsemen do represent a form of God's Wrath for me. They are preparing the way for the Kingdom of God by quieting those who are obstacles to God's Kingdom. The world has been trying to set up their own kingdom--their own "Babel," if you will? And God is destroying this pseudo-civilization. They are, in my opinion, God's angels of destruction.

                                In the garden of Eden it was God's angel who God used to prevent Man from getting back into the Garden and prevented him from eating of the tree of life. This was judgment, to prevent the eternal establishment of a false kingdom.

                                But when the Kingdom is based on Christ, the angels will be in favor of it. Only Satan's angels will be in opposition to it. These 4 horsemen are working to further the cause of God's Kingdom, and not working against it. They are prohibiting the Kingdom of Man, in order to make way for the Kingdom of Christ.
                                I love your response and agree completely. Excellent in every way.

                                But I love to read Zechariah. I believe in this case, is prophecy that will foretell a case of history repeating itself.

                                Notice the similarity. The aggressor is Babylon. Clearly because of Israel's disobedience, God stirred up Babylon to take Israel into captivity. Or perhaps he allowed Israel to become weak, and was overtaken.

                                I have always believed that Babylon in Revelation is symbolic of a spiritual enemy facing mankind during end time events. But if you examine each of the horseman in Revelation, you can see a pattern of how each horse applied during the time of Babylon and Israel prior to Zechariah coming in the picture.

                                1) The white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
                                Most scholars attribute this as unto the Lord. In Zechariah, it appears to be the angel of the Lord on the white horse. But compare how the Lord stirred up Babylon against Israel. But this was the Lords doing due to the transgressions of Israel. I believe this will be history repeating itself against mankind, due to the hearts of man turning away from God. That God will cause spiritual Babylon to take mankind into captivity. Most likely the great tribulation. But notice in Israel that all that were taken were not of Israel. Even Isaiah's concern was that all were cut off. But God told him that a remnant will be saved. That he had 7000 in reserve that would never bow the knee to Baal. So as then, there was a mixed bag of good and bad in Israel. I would not expect to see any difference near the end of time events.

                                2) The red horse: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
                                This no doubt was when Babylon attacked Israel made war against her. We can read of all the terrible things that took place with the killing of the men, how the women were ravished, children were killed. Those that survived were entreated terrible and tortured. I can envision this happening again, by all that I read in Revelation regarding the Beast.

                                3) The black horse: And he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
                                Look at what came next; great famine in the land. No doubt the water was polluted, the fields and crops were burned, disease was spread like wild fire. Yes great famine. It was believe that a penny was a days wages. But notice what the cost of wheat was for a measure (or a quart of wheat). A quart of wheat cost a whole days of work wages. And three measures of barley (3 quarts) cost a days work wages. I expect this to be no different in end time events. Things will definitely be scarce.

                                4) The pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
                                Then comes death. This was pretty much the outcome for the children of Israel. They were all, but wiped off the face of the earth. But not all. A few remained, and God made a provision to return back to their homeland. The same hope as I have in the end. He that remains until the end will be saved. God has made a provision for those who are his own.


                                Revelation 6:
                                1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
                                2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
                                3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
                                4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
                                5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
                                6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
                                7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
                                8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

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