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  • A Question for Calendar Buffs and Mathematicians!

    Hi, everyone! In the "Crucial Time" thread, Roelof and Ananias and I started discussing an issue that I'd like to ask your help on. It relates to the following:

    1. Using the Gregorian calendar, 2016 surely appears to be the end of a 28-year cycle--the 72nd since Christ's birth. That would be His birth at 1 BC.

    2. But if Jesus was born in 7 BC, then it appears the 28-year cycle would end in 2009.

    3. However, the 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy (from the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem in the book of Nehemiah to the triumphal entry of Jesus in Jerusalem before His crucifixion) would equal 483 years. Using the Gregorian calendar 444 BC to 33 AD is short by 7 years. Using the Hebrew Calendar, 444 BC to 33 AD fits perfectly with 483 years. The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy would be yet to come. The Jewish calendar uses 360-day years, rather than 365 days, so there is exactly 7 years more in that time span of 444 BC to 33 AD.

    4. But how does that affect the actual year Jesus was born? If He was born in 7 BC and died in 33 AD, that would make Him 40 years old, rather than 33 years old.

    5. Also, how does that affect our 28-year cycles? Where would we be right now in the cycle if we use the Jewish calendar?

    Personally, I believe God has used both the Gregorian and Jewish calendars to help us understand His timing. I'm sort of trying to find a way that this can mesh together so we can understand the relation to the year 2016. May I ask for your insights into this? This feels like a logic problem to me, and I was never very good at those in the crossword books. I'll keep researching too, though!

  • #2
    Hi Wombat!

    I don't have much time before bed, so I will leave these links for you. They may or may not be of help.

    Derek Walker

    http://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk/pages/books/end-time-prophecy/times.php


    The other is Chuck Missler mp3's. I heard him speak on tv, and I think this is were he gave "from the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem" down to the very day of when Jesus entered Jerusalem

    http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP006/

    Hope this helps!

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Using the Gregorian calendar, 2016 surely appears to be the end of a 28-year cycle--the 72nd since Christ's birth. That would be His birth at 1 BC.
      Explain why you're using 1 BC.

      Both Matthew and Luke state Jesus was born sometime during the rule of Herod I, who died in 4 BC. Jesus, Biblically speaking, couldn't have been born in 1 BC.

      2. But if Jesus was born in 7 BC, then it appears the 28-year cycle would end in 2009.
      Explain why you picked 7 BC.

      3. However, the 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy (from the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem in the book of Nehemiah to the triumphal entry of Jesus in Jerusalem before His crucifixion) would equal 483 years. Using the Gregorian calendar 444 BC to 33 AD is short by 7 years. Using the Hebrew Calendar, 444 BC to 33 AD fits perfectly with 483 years. The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy would be yet to come. The Jewish calendar uses 360-day years, rather than 365 days, so there is exactly 7 years more in that time span of 444 BC to 33 AD.
      What is the significance of 444 BC?

      Did you take into account that the Jewish calendar also has a whole extra month every so many years, to balance out the fact that their regular year is only 360 days long? It's their version of our leap year. Wouldn't X-number of extra months over the course of 483 years offset your counting (assuming you didn't take it into account)?

      4. But how does that affect the actual year Jesus was born? If He was born in 7 BC and died in 33 AD, that would make Him 40 years old, rather than 33 years old.
      5. Also, how does that affect our 28-year cycles? Where would we be right now in the cycle if we use the Jewish calendar?
      I'm a little behind, I suppose - where are you getting a 28-year cycle? What exactly is being "cycled"?

      Personally... I place 458~457 BC as the starting year. This works (mathematically) for a few reasons:

      1. It could place Jesus' birthyear as 5~4 BC, fitting Him into being born before Herod I had died.
      2. It the 483 years would end in 26~27 BC, coinciding with Jesus' 30th year of age, and His baptism - Jesus' baptism is His anointing (this is when God declares "This is My Son"). "Messiah" (the anointed) is to appear at the end of the 483 years, so Jesus is baptized (and subsequently anointed by God) at the start of His ministry.
      3. Mathematically speaking, since this would be the end of the 483 years, it would be the start of the final 7 years. Daniel 9 says that the Messiah was to be "cut off" following the 483 years (i.e., within the last 7 years), and that the sacrifices would be finished halfway through the last week. Daniel 9 also says that "the prince" (notice that the Messiah is called "Messiah the prince") would make a covenant in this last 7 years. Jesus declared that He was making a New Covenant, and Jesus was crucified halfway through these final seven years ("cut off"), and His sacrifice, theologically speaking (read Hebrews 9-10), put an end to the temple sacrifices.
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wombat
        3. However, the 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy (from the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem in the book of Nehemiah to the triumphal entry of Jesus in Jerusalem before His crucifixion) would equal 483 years. Using the Gregorian calendar 444 BC to 33 AD is short by 7 years. Using the Hebrew Calendar, 444 BC to 33 AD fits perfectly with 483 years. The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy would be yet to come. The Jewish calendar uses 360-day years, rather than 365 days, so there is exactly 7 years more in that time span of 444 BC to 33 AD.

        4. But how does that affect the actual year Jesus was born? If He was born in 7 BC and died in 33 AD, that would make Him 40 years old, rather than 33 years old.
        The reason why you are having chronology problems is because you are following the system developed by Sir Robert Anderson. (Published 1898) Anderson’s dates are in error. The crucifixion of Christ was 7th April AD 30 – not AD 33 as previously thought.

        I’m inclined to think Jesus was born BC 6 but even that would make him 39 years old at his death. 39/40 years old cannot possibly be right because he was said to be about thirty at the time of his baptism. (Luke 3:23) IMO he was thirty-one but if we follow dispensational chronology he would be about thirty-four or thirty-five at the beginning of his ministry.

        You really need to ask your self a hard question bro. How far are you prepared to stretch the word ‘about’ before you are willing to chuck out Sir Roberts theory?

        Cyber
        "Your name and renown
        is the desire of our hearts."
        (Isaiah 26:8)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
          I will leave these links for you. They may or may not be of help. Derek Walker
          http://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk/pages/books/end-time-prophecy/times.php
          The other is Chuck Missler mp3's. I heard him speak on tv, and I think this is were he gave "from the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem" down to the very day of when Jesus entered Jerusalem
          http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP006/
          Hope this helps!
          Thank you, Partaker of Christ! I found the information on the 2520 days very interesting!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by markedward View Post
            Explain why you're using 1 BC. Both Matthew and Luke state Jesus was born sometime during the rule of Herod I, who died in 4 BC. Jesus, Biblically speaking, couldn't have been born in 1 BC. Explain why you picked 7 BC. What is the significance of 444 BC?
            Did you take into account that the Jewish calendar also has a whole extra month every so many years, to balance out the fact that their regular year is only 360 days long? It's their version of our leap year. Wouldn't X-number of extra months over the course of 483 years offset your counting (assuming you didn't take it into account)? I'm a little behind, I suppose - where are you getting a 28-year cycle? What exactly is being "cycled"?
            Personally... I place 458~457 BC as the starting year. This works (mathematically) for a few reasons:
            1. It could place Jesus' birthyear as 5~4 BC, fitting Him into being born before Herod I had died.
            2. It the 483 years would end in 26~27 BC, coinciding with Jesus' 30th year of age, and His baptism - Jesus' baptism is His anointing (this is when God declares "This is My Son"). "Messiah" (the anointed) is to appear at the end of the 483 years, so Jesus is baptized (and subsequently anointed by God) at the start of His ministry.
            3. Mathematically speaking, since this would be the end of the 483 years, it would be the start of the final 7 years. Daniel 9 says that the Messiah was to be "cut off" following the 483 years (i.e., within the last 7 years), and that the sacrifices would be finished halfway through the last week. Daniel 9 also says that "the prince" (notice that the Messiah is called "Messiah the prince") would make a covenant in this last 7 years. Jesus declared that He was making a New Covenant, and Jesus was crucified halfway through these final seven years ("cut off"), and His sacrifice, theologically speaking (read Hebrews 9-10), put an end to the temple sacrifices.
            Hi, MarkEdward! Here's some extra information to help answer.

            The year of 1 BC was just based on the idea that Jesus was 33 years old when He was crucified. If that happened in 33 AD, then He would have been born in that 1 BC or 1 AD time period. If I understand correctly from some things I've read, you would use the 1 BC because you don't count year 0. That could be incorrect on my part, and that would be 1 AD instead. Now, I've been unable to locate the Scripture that tells Jesus' age. Does anyone know of one? I thought for sure I had seen it in the Bible that He was 33 years old when He died, but perhaps that is just tradition rather than Scripture?

            The 7 BC date for Jesus' birth was suggested by Ananias in the other thread, and this idea appears to have much scholarly support according to my research. And, as you pointed out, Herod died in 4 BC, so the 7 BC date would work out better than a 1 BC or AD date.

            The year 444 BC is the date I discovered for the Decree of Artaxerxes which is described in the book of Nehemiah. This is the Decree that allowed the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem. It started Daniel's prophetic 70 weeks.

            Regarding the Jewish calendar, I hadn't heard that about the extra month. This news hurts my braincells, MarkEdward! May I appeal to anyone out there who knows the Jewish calendar system to clue me in on how it works a little better?

            In the other thread, Roelof pointed out that the year 2016 would hold the end of the 72nd 28-year cycle from Christ's birth. He has worked this out using the Gregorian calendar. That year is also a Jubilee year, according to my research. It will also be the year 5777 on the Jewish calendar, as pointed out by Ananias. It may also be the 6000th year since Creation. Someone here in the End Times group posted this information a long time ago, but I cannot remember who that was--please pardon me for my bad memory and for not being able to give credit where credit is due. I typed it into my personal notebook, but failed to type my source. The person who posted it mentioned that since the fall of Adam in the book of Genesis, there have been 119 Jubilee years. The Jubilee that begins in September 2015 and carries into 2016 will be the 120th. By multiplying 120 x 50 (Jubilee years are the 50th year), you get 6000 years since the fall of Adam.

            As for 458/457 BC, may I ask what occurred in that date? The 70 weeks begin with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, so that is why I'm looking at the Decree of Artaxerxes as a start date. Also, as you might guess from some of my other posts, I believe the last 7 years of the 70 weeks will be the time of the antiChrist.

            Thanks for your help, MarkEdward!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
              The reason why you are having chronology problems is because you are following the system developed by Sir Robert Anderson. (Published 1898) Anderson’s dates are in error. The crucifixion of Christ was 7th April AD 30 – not AD 33 as previously thought.
              I’m inclined to think Jesus was born BC 6 but even that would make him 39 years old at his death. 39/40 years old cannot possibly be right because he was said to be about thirty at the time of his baptism. (Luke 3:23) IMO he was thirty-one but if we follow dispensational chronology he would be about thirty-four or thirty-five at the beginning of his ministry.
              You really need to ask your self a hard question bro. How far are you prepared to stretch the word ‘about’ before you are willing to chuck out Sir Roberts theory? Cyber
              Hi, Cyberseeker! Thanks for the information--I hadn't heard of Sir Robert Anderson before. Can you provide some more details? How does the dispnsational chronology work? I haven't heard of that one before, either.

              Comment


              • #8
                If you are going to count years, you need to forget the whole 365 vs 360 days thing, and just simply count the years. If you count from fall harvest to fall harvest, it doesn't matter how many days there, or who's calendar you are going by, or how may leap years or leap months are involved.
                If you are counting days, however, you are going to run into difficulties.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wombat View Post
                  Now, I've been unable to locate the Scripture that tells Jesus' age. Does anyone know of one? I thought for sure I had seen it in the Bible that He was 33 years old when He died, but perhaps that is just tradition rather than Scripture?
                  Luke's gospel states Jesus was baptized and began His ministry "when He was beginning to be about 30 years" or something to that extent. John's gospel indicates that Jesus' ministry lasted up to a third Passover, so He would thus have been about 33-34 when He was crucified.

                  Regarding the Jewish calendar, I hadn't heard that about the extra month. This news hurts my braincells, MarkEdward! May I appeal to anyone out there who knows the Jewish calendar system to clue me in on how it works a little better?
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_...ar#Leap_months For a quick read.

                  As for 458/457 BC, may I ask what occurred in that date? The 70 weeks begin with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, so that is why I'm looking at the Decree of Artaxerxes as a start date.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_BC See the first event, under "Persian empire".

                  Artaxerxes I issued his decree in his "seventh year" of rule. He began his rule in 465~464 BC, so his seventh year would have been 457 BC.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    I'm a little behind, I suppose - where are you getting a 28-year cycle? What exactly is being "cycled"?
                    I placed a thread a while ago, showing some very important Biblical events happened in 7x4 = 28 years cycles. I will mention a few:


                    4004 BC - The world was created by God according to Dr John Lightfoot, which were 143 of the 28 year cycles before Jesus Christ was born.

                    2016 BC - Abram was born, which were 72 of the 28 year cycles before Jesus Christ was born. Assume He was born in the year 1 AD according to the Gregorian calendar.

                    28 AD - John the Baptist began his ministry, which were 1 of the 28 year cycles after Jesus Christ was born.

                    1989 - The beginning of the current 28 year cycle was 1989 AD, which were 71 of the 28 year cycles after Jesus Christ was born. The World Wide Web was createdby Sir Tim Berners-Lee in Switzerland. This led to an explosion of knowledge.


                    The year 2014/15 is 28 years after 1986/87, the year I regard as the beginning of the End of the End Times (Last Days).

                    2016 - The end of the current 28 year cycle will be 2016 AD, which will be 72 of the 28 year cycles after Jesus Christ was born. This is 144 of the 28 year cycles after Abram, the father of Israel was born.

                    my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                    If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                    Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wombat View Post
                      Hi, Cyberseeker! Thanks for the information--I hadn't heard of Sir Robert Anderson before. Can you provide some more details? How does the dispnsational chronology work? I haven't heard of that one before, either.
                      The emperor Artaxerxes made a decree in BC 457. This is the one referred to by Mark Edward. The problem is he made another decree in BC 444. Some people think one is right and others go for the other one.

                      The second proclamation is okay in one respect because it dealt with the state of the walls and streets, construction that is clearly predicted in the prophetic description. But the time frame doesn’t fit; it finishes fourteen years too late! This difficulty has led most Bible students to prefer BC 457 as the likely date.

                      However Sir Robert Anderson in his book, ‘The Coming Prince’ produced evidence for a different calendar that has three hundred and sixty days instead of three hundred and sixty-five and, by using this shorter year he calculates the finish of the sixty-ninth week to be the entry of Jesus into Jerusalem just prior to his arrest. He called it the ‘prophetic calendar.’

                      Anderson’s theory should not be entirely written off, but it has to be said that his dating is flawed. First of all, the AD 32 triumphal entry is wrong. It fails to match the known phases of the moon in that year. Dispensational theologians in recent times have realized this error and adjusted Sir Roberts’s dates to fall due in AD 33 instead. However this date is still wrong because Jesus was crucified three years before that in AD 30. Attempts to late-date the cross to AD 33 have created more problems than they have solved and it is now proven beyond reasonable doubt that his death occurred 7th April AD 30.

                      I would go for the BC457 date if I were you.
                      "Your name and renown
                      is the desire of our hearts."
                      (Isaiah 26:8)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Roelof View Post
                        I placed a thread a while ago, showing some very important Biblical events happened in 7x4 = 28 years cycles. I will mention a few:
                        That's all fine and everything but... to make it work, doesn't it require that we actually know with 100% certainty what year the world was created in or when Abram was born? The problem is... we don't. Even appealing to the authority of a Biblical scholar doesn't solve this problem, because there is still a large section of the Bible (namely, between Moses and Samuel) that doesn't have very many time-markers applied to them. So in the end, even that Biblical scholar is entirely guessing on the years.
                        To This Day

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That's the thing about making predictive date guestimations....depending on the system you use, the variables you define them as, and the considerations or lack of considerations that determine your formula; anyone can just about predict anything.

                          That's why in ETC discussions we should avoid these attempts at predictions and datesetting; every one of them is subjective on many levels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                            If you are going to count years, you need to forget the whole 365 vs 360 days thing, and just simply count the years. If you count from fall harvest to fall harvest, it doesn't matter how many days there, or who's calendar you are going by, or how may leap years or leap months are involved.
                            If you are counting days, however, you are going to run into difficulties.
                            Thanks, Kahtar! I have tried it counting years, but I'll have to check on the days aspect.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by markedward View Post
                              Luke's gospel states Jesus was baptized and began His ministry "when He was beginning to be about 30 years" or something to that extent. John's gospel indicates that Jesus' ministry lasted up to a third Passover, so He would thus have been about 33-34 when He was crucified.
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_...ar#Leap_months For a quick read.
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_BC See the first event, under "Persian empire".
                              Artaxerxes I issued his decree in his "seventh year" of rule. He began his rule in 465~464 BC, so his seventh year would have been 457 BC.
                              Thanks, MarkEdward! I'll take a look at these!

                              Comment

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