Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Identity Of Babylon

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Information The Identity Of Babylon

    The Identity Of Babylon

    “Babylon” is mentioned only in four books in the New Testament. The first book is the gospel of Matthew. The author is recapping Jesus’ ancestry, and mentions the historical exile to Babylon. The second book is the Acts of the Apostles. Stephen (soon to be the first martyr) makes a defense to the Sanhedrin, and also references the exile to Babylon. The third book is the first epistle of Peter. The author says that “[s]he who is in Babylon … sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.” The fourth book is the Revelation. The author presents Babylon as a persecutor of the followers of Christ, and a great evil-doer. The first and second books are of no problem at all. But the third and fourth books can cause a good deal of confusion to the student who is trying to identify their respective “Babylons.” I maintain that in both cases, “Babylon” is actually the city of Jerusalem.

    Peter’s Babylon

    I Peter 5:13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

    Peter, according to tradition, left Judea and traveled to the city of Rome. This tradition has led to the belief that when Peter wrote “Babylon” in his epistle, he was really referring to Rome. But just for the sake of it, let’s examine the Biblical record of Peter’s ministry.

    On the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit is poured out on the followers of Christ, Peter takes the lead at this “founding” of the ministry in Jerusalem. Peter and John are called before the Sanhedrin as the main representatives of the Christians in Jerusalem. When persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, they all fled the city – except for the apostles, including Peter. Following the conversion of many people in Samaria, John and Peter were sent from Jerusalem to preach to them; after this, they each returned to Jerusalem. Peter leaves for Caesarea to witness to Cornelius, and then he returned to Jerusalem. After the death of James, the brother of John, Peter was arrested in Jerusalem by King Herod. Paul says that three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem to see Peter, and that he stayed with him for fifteen days (from this we can infer that Peter was living in Jerusalem). Paul then says he returned to Jerusalem fourteen years later, and again he saw Peter there.

    When Paul and Barnabas were in Antioch, they were sent back to Jerusalem to discuss the differences between Jews and Gentiles; when they arrived in Jerusalem, Peter was one of the members of the church who met with them. Notably, when Paul was sent up from Antioch, he was sent “to see the apostles and elders.” Only James and Peter were specifically mentioned as part of the group that Paul was sent to see, and James and Peter sent back a letter in reply, saying it was from “the apostles and elders.” That the people of Antioch expected apostles (Peter being one of them) to be in Jerusalem – and that Peter’s and James’ response attests to this – indicates that Jerusalem was where Peter was making his permanent home. Finally, Peter says that Mark was also sending greetings; (assuming this is the same Mark (called John) in Acts) Peter, following his prison-break, went to Mark’s residence, which is known to have been in Jerusalem (hence we can also infer that Mark was in Jerusalem with Peter).

    The New Testament very clearly shows that Peter resided in Jerusalem for his ministry. The manner in which Acts and Paul speak of him, it seems that despite Peter was occasionally seen to travel for his ministry it was a well-known fact to most Christians that he had made Jerusalem his permanent residence. In fact, Paul says that when he went to Jerusalem after fourteen years of being away, he met with the people who were considered “pillars” there, including Peter.

    Although Acts depicts Peter as one of the first few people to appeal to the Gentiles, Paul’s letters maintain that Peter continued in his ministry to the Jews, which is especially evident in the Bible’s continual depiction that (A) he resided in Jerusalem and (B) always returned to it if he left. Reading earlier in I Peter, our author is seen addressing the dispersed Christians. But who was dispersed? It seems plausible that Peter may well have been writing to the Jewish-Christians who had been scattered when persecution began in Jerusalem, as seen in Acts. As one writer put it, “[h]ow natural it would be for Peter to write to the Jewish diaspora from their national capital and their ‘mother church’ in Jerusalem,” and another says “[t]hus his salutation makes perfect sense for someone who is writing from Jerusalem to those who had previously left; and makes no sense if he were writing from Rome.” Further notice is made of Peter’s mention of Mark in I Peter, who was seen to have had a residence in Jerusalem, and Peter’s mention that his scribe was Silas, who is also seen in Acts as a member of the church in Jerusalem; these each help to point to Jerusalem as being the location from which I Peter was written.

    Given the sturdy amount of support that Peter had made his permanent ministerial home in Jerusalem, it is very probable, then, that Peter’s “Babylon” was Jerusalem.

    John’s Babylon

    The Great

    Revelation 17:5 This title was written on her forehead: Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of Abominations of the Earth.

    The identity of John’s Babylon has been a great debate, but all of the clues to its identity are in the Revelation. A careful reading of the passages concerning Babylon, and comparing them to the rest of the New Testament, can reveal who exactly Babylon the Great is. Here are the verses in the Revelation that refer to “Babylon.”

    Revelation 14:8 A second angel followed and said, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

    Revelation 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

    Revelation 17:5 This title was written on her forehead: Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of Abominations of the Earth.

    Revelation 18:2 With a mighty voice he shouted, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.”

    Revelation 18:10 “Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry, ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!’”

    Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: “With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.”

    Babylon is referred to six times in the Revelation. Four of those six verses also mention “the great city,” three of which say Babylon is “the great city.” In fact, in chapter 17, the angel tells John “[t]he woman [Babylon the Great] you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    When reading through the Revelation, it is plainly obvious that John speaks of a singular “city,” not multiple cities. He always uses the article “the” to show it is a specific city, and repeatedly calls it “the great city” throughout the book, so it should be evident to all that he speaks of just one “city.” Here are the verses in the Revelation that refer to the “city.”

    Revelation 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    Revelation 11:13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    Revelation 14:20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

    Revelation 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

    Revelation 17:18 “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    Revelation 18:10 “Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!’”

    Revelation 18:16 “and cry out: ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!’”

    Revelation 18:18 “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’”

    Revelation 18:19 “They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin.’”

    Revelation 18:21 “Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.”

    First, when reading the “Babylon” verses along with the “city” verses, it’s easily seen that Babylon is “the great city,” especially since Babylon is directly called “the great city” multiple times. Aside from that, Babylon is called “Babylon the Great” four times or so; the very title of the harlot directly relates it to the city: “Babylon the Great” is “the great city” seen throughout the book.

    Second, take note of the Revelation 11:8; this is the first mention of “the great city,” and it is directly called “where [the] Lord was crucified.” This, of course, is Jerusalem. The only objection I have ever heard to this is that Jesus wasn’t crucified “in” Jerusalem. John, however, never says this either. He only says that “the great city” is “where” Jesus was crucified. Even if His crucifixion took place outside of the city gates, it is undeniable that His death is automatically associated with Jerusalem, simply because He was sentenced to death there, carried His cross from there, and was executed outside of the walls.

    What we see in the Revelation so far can be summarized in a brief “equation” of sorts:

    Jerusalem = where the Lord was crucified = the great city = Babylon the Great

    A simple reduction of the “equation” leaves us with this:

    Jerusalem = Babylon the Great
    To This Day

  • #2
    The Blood

    In Matthew 23, especially in verses 33-35, Jesus places the blame of the blood of the prophets and the righteous directly on the Pharisees and the Jews in Jerusalem. In verse 36 Jesus outright says that the consequences of those sins would be enacted upon that generation of Jews, and that their “house” (the temple of Jerusalem) would be left to them “desolate.” In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus describes the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2) and of the city Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-22), and that it would be “days of vengeance” (Luke 21:22) and “wrath against this people” (Luke 21:23). If there can be a summary of Jesus’ eschatological prophecies, it was that He prophesied destruction would come upon Jerusalem as “vengeance” and “wrath” as the culmination of their sins that they held over the few righteous followers of God.

    In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is said to be “drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus,” the same reason for which Christ placed judgment upon Jerusalem. Further, “the city” faces similar judgment as was prophesied on Jerusalem. In 14:20 the city is “trampled in the winepress [of God’s wrath].” In 16:19, when “the great city” splits apart, it is then said that “God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her … His wrath.” The entirety of chapter 18 is about how “Babylon the Great,” “the great city,” had fallen, how “doom [had] come” with “such violence.”

    Some of what Jesus prophesied over Jerusalem is parallels a statement found in the Revelation:

    Revelation 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.

    Matthew 23:34-35 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth

    Take specific notice of the part in red in Jesus’ prophecy as compared to the Revelation verse – both Jesus and John are placing the blame for the deaths of all of the righteous people of the earth upon the condemned city. Jesus places the blame on Jerusalem, whereas John places the blame on Babylon. But both Jerusalem and Babylon are being assigned the same blame, so it is entirely plausible that they are one and the same city.

    The Harlot

    Since it is imperative to recognize that there are numerous references in the Revelation to the Old Testament (some say hundreds), likewise a careful study of Old Testament Israel (and Jerusalem specifically) shows that “she” is continually symbolized as a “harlot,” a woman seeking to do sin. In Ezekiel 16, Jerusalem is very metaphorically described as God’s “queen.” Later in the chapter, however, Jerusalem becomes a “prostitute,” seeking to take part in the sins of other nations, directly stated to be committing adultery. And finally, God’s wrath is kindled against the “prostitute” Jerusalem, and the nations she sinned with return to her to destroy her.

    Continuing on in Revelation 18, we see that Babylon claims she “sit[s] as queen” and that she is “not a widow.” This is a further metaphoric representation of Babylon as a “harlot.” If it is seen that Babylon is Jerusalem, then what is her claim that she is “not a widow” about? Could it be that she killed her Husband (Jesus)? And that she clings to the idea that she is still the “queen” that God originally had her to be? It certainly seems so. And as Ezekiel says that Jerusalem committed “adultery” with other nations, likewise Babylon is said to have “committed adultery” with “the kings of the earth.” And again, as Ezekiel says that the other nations returned to destroyed adulterous Jerusalem, so is adulterous Babylon brought “to ruin” and “left naked” by the beast (and its kings) that she had been riding upon in her mad drunken fervor.

    Jerusalem (and Israel as a whole) is continually given the adulterous prostitute image in the Old Testament: Leviticus 17:7, 20:5-6; Numbers 14:33, 15:39; Deuteronomy 31:16; Judges 2:17, 8:27; I Chronicles 5:25; II Chronicles 21:11; Psalm 73:27; Hosea; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20, 3:2,9,13, 5:7,11, 13:27; and Ezekiel 6:9; 16; 23; 43:7,9.

    On a final, minor parallel; in Matthew 12:43-45, Jesus says that when “this wicked generation” would be rid of an unclean spirit, that seven more unclean spirits would return to live there; that is to say, the amount of wicked spirits would build up upon “this wicked generation.” Likewise, Babylon is said to have “become the home for demons, and a haunt for every unclean spirit.”

    In my opinion, it can’t be any clearer that John’s Babylon is Jerusalem in a specific sense.

    Revelation’s Theme

    In the opening of the Revelation, John writes down a very specific statement.

    Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

    A good number of Christians and non-Christians alike have recognized this as being the definitive theme of the Revelation. John, here, is making a sort of amalgamation of other statements found in the Bible. Aside from the most well-recognized one (“even those who pierced Him”), the “He is coming with the clouds … and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him” directly goes back to Jesus’ prophecies in the Olivet Discourse. Simply said, John’s Revelation is being directly connected with the Discourse’s prophecies. In the opening to the Discourse, Jesus is asked by His disciples when the second temple of Jerusalem (this should be hint number one) would be destroyed. Jesus gives a lengthy response to this question, culminating in “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.”

    The parallels between the Revelation statement and Jesus’ Discourse statement are undeniable. The original context of the whole Discourse was the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem. That Jesus was making a prophecy as an extension to His prophesied catastrophe looming over Jerusalem’s second temple, and that He states that it would be “wrath against this people,” then for John to hearken to Jesus’ “coming on the clouds” proclamation lends credence to the theme of the Revelation being, succinctly, the judgment of Jerusalem. Hence, the judgment upon Babylon “the great city” from Revelation 11 and onward is seen as one of the prime aspects of the book, which draws upon the theme we find in verse 1:7, which in turn draws upon Jesus’ prophecy against Jerusalem for “days of vengeance.”

    Something that some people do not seem to consider, is that the Revelation was not written in a vacuum, where John was shown arbitrary symbols with no context. John was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew, and God was the God of the Jews. Everything in the Revelation can be found in previous Scripture, the majority of which being the Old Testament. Aside from the harlot being a common symbol assigned to Jerusalem in the Old Testament, and aside from other various motifs drawn from the ancient prophets, the Revelation's theme, as presented above, fits perfectly in context with the old prophets. When Ezekiel and Isaiah and Jeremiah and Daniel and Zechariah and Joel et al. prophesied judgments upon people... who were their books primarily focused upon? Yes, the Gentiles played key parts, but the Jews were always the main context of the prophecies, and, if one notices, were always the ones being assigned the blame and having judgment prophesied against.

    Jerusalem is found specifically in numerous Old Testament judgment prophecies (and Israel is found generically in many of these as well), so it is not inconceivable that the Revelation follows in suit. Even Jesus prophesied judgment upon Jerusalem in the same vein that the Old Testament prophets did, and John's Revelation draws upon Jesus' prophecies as well. Case in point, the theme of the Revelation can be definitively found in both Jesus' prophecies, can be definitively grounded in the Old Testament prophecies, and can even be found in small portions throughout the New Testament epistles. Bluntly: "judgment upon Jerusalem" carries the strongest Biblical evidence for being the Revelation's theme. And since Babylon is seen as the prime target of God's vengeance, then combined with all of the other arguments, one doesn't reach very far at all to say Babylon is Jerusalem.

    Conclusions

    In any case, I believe there is sufficient evidence, drawing from all portions of Scripture, to show that the “Babylon” spoken of in the New Testament is the city of Jerusalem. Summarized points:
    1. Peter is described throughout the New Testament as living in Jerusalem for his entire ministry – nothing in the Bible says he ever permanently left the city, let alone for Rome (as alleged). So, when Peter said he was writing from “Babylon,” this can be taken as referring to Jerusalem.
    2. John’s Revelation provides multiple reasons for Jerusalem being Babylon.
    a. Babylon is called “the great city,” which in turn is identified as the place “where our Lord was crucified.” Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem, so it is logical to follow this through and connect Jerusalem with Babylon.
    b. Babylon takes on the symbolism of being an adulterous harlot. “She” claims she is a queen, and not a widow. The Old Testament contains a number of passages likening Jerusalem to a harlot. Directly, many of the statements made about Babylon in Revelation 17 parallel the things said about Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16. In both of these chapters, the city is symbolized as an adulterous woman who prostitutes herself to foreign nations, each is said to have committed murder, each is mentioned as a “queen,” and each is destroyed by her former lovers.
    c. Jesus prophesied vengeance and judgment upon the people of Jerusalem, and made a particular “on the clouds” statement in reference to His prophecy of the destruction of the second temple of Jerusalem. John’s Revelation begins by drawing upon Jesus’ “on the clouds” prophecy, showing that John is setting the theme for the Revelation as the judgment upon Jerusalem. Likewise, the Revelation, assuming Babylon is Jerusalem, strongly follows the style of prophecies the Old Testament prophets made. Since the Revelation places a prime focus upon Babylon’s judgment, the connection between Babylon’s judgment and Jerusalem’s judgment in Jesus’ prophecies, along with the parallels between the Revelation and the ancient prophets, is strong enough to consider that Babylon is Jerusalem.
    Last edited by markedward; Sep 12th 2008, 03:54 AM. Reason: [Added verse. Minor corrections.]
    To This Day

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree. What most folks overlook is that the whole context of Matthew 24 is in response to Jesus telling the disciples that the temple would be destroyed. The whole chapter has to do with events surrounding the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

      Also this chapter is following on the heels of Jesus having told the Jewish leaders the parable about the stewards of the vineyard being destroyed and their vineyard given to others (representing the Jewish nation as the landowners). This is exactly what Jesus is continuing to explain.

      Comment


      • #4
        I Peter 5:13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.


        I have been meaning to research further what evidence there truly is that Peter ever travelled to Rome, let alone that he wrote the book of Peter from there. This verse also means that Peter's son, Mark, had to also have travelled to Rome at the same time--which makes for an interesting situation, if Peter was crucified upside-down there. You would think his son, Mark, would have made the history books in some way if he was witness to his own dad being crucified.

        We DO know, though, that Peter's chartered ministry was to Judea. I think it's a 75/25 chance Babylon was Jerusalem here, not Rome.

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting study. And mostly I agree.
          One question:
          This verse says that 'the great city' rules over the kings of the earth.
          Revelation 17:18 “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
          At what point in history has Jerusalem, or the Jews, ruled over the kings of the earth? Certainly not in Jesus' time, nor in 70 AD. Rome ruled over Jerusalem then.

          Comment


          • #6
            One question:
            This verse says that 'the great city' rules over the kings of the earth.
            Revelation 17:18 “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
            At what point in history has Jerusalem, or the Jews, ruled over the kings of the earth? Certainly not in Jesus' time, nor in 70 AD. Rome ruled over Jerusalem then.
            If you do a study of Zionism, Zionists view themselves as the "rudder of the ship". They're the itty-bitty thing, under the water, secretly nudging, steering the "kings of the earth" around. You can see that behavior in the Gospels; particularly, the interactions between the Pharisees and the Romans concerning the Crucifixion. They thought they had the Roman authorities wrapped around their little finger. Also, in Acts you can see Jews at the forefront of Christian persecution, and that was all over the Roman Empire--not just in Judea.

            Comment


            • #7
              markedward,

              What about the city written about in Chapter 11 indicates that it is Babylon being described there? I see Jerusalem in Chapter 11, but nothing else in that chapter that would indicate that it is referring to Babylon the Great.

              ServantoftheKing

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
                markedward,

                What about the city written about in Chapter 11 indicates that it is Babylon being described there? I see Jerusalem in Chapter 11, but nothing else in that chapter that would indicate that it is referring to Babylon the Great.

                ServantoftheKing
                This is a good question, but even a cursory read of the Revelation can provide a simple answer:

                11:8 is the first time we are introduced to "the great city." From here onward, John never mentions multiple other "great cities", he continually calls it "the great city" (or simply "the city"), indicating it's singularity and uniqueness. In 11:8 "the great city" is directly stated to be the location at which Christ was crucified.

                In chapter 14, we see that "the city" is being treaded upon by God's wrath. By chapter 14, only one "the city" has been mentioned, being "the great city" of 11:8, so the connection between the two is necessarily contextual. Chapter 14: "the city"? Which city? Oh, right, "the great city" mentioned in 11:8.

                In chapter 16, God's wrath is seen to come upon "the great city." Again, no other city has been mentioned up to this point beyond "the city" of chapter 14 and "the great city" of 11:8. Immediately after chapter 16's reference to "the great city" we are told that God "remembered" Babylon and poured His wrath upon her. So, John is describing "the great city" as being under judgment, and immediately contextualizes it with the retribution that God had sent upon Babylon.

                And, at last, in chapter 17 John is shown the adulterous Babylon, who is directly stated to be "the great city." In the entirety of the Revelation, what "great city" is this? The only description we are given is that it is "where our Lord also was crucified," and given, as I said before, that only one "the great city" is spoken of throughout the book indicates that "the great city" of 11:8 is the same "the great city" found in chapters 16, 17 and 18.
                To This Day

                Comment


                • #9
                  I further note that I forgot to place in my above study.

                  One of the parables Christ told was of a wedding feast. In this parable, Christ likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a wedding feast. The King (Christ) sent out His servants (Christ's followers) to invite other people to the feast (the Kingdom). However, not everyone responded to the servants of the king favorably:

                  The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.'

                  This may seem to be mere parable, but it is much deeper even in the symbols Christ uses. Notice His mentioning of burning the city the evil-doers are from. Following this parable, the Pharisees "laid plans to trap Him in His words." Why? Because the Pharisees knew His parable was about them - they were the murderers from the city that would be burned up. Christians try to help others come to know Christ, the people of Jerusalem kill the Christians. The King (Jesus), in turn, pours His wrath upon Jerusalem, and following Jerusalem's destruction is the wedding feast. This is directly parallel to the final chapters of the Revelation.

                  In bits of the book we see Christians as the servants of Christ, and the Christians are killed. Babylon is then directly stated to be the one responsible for their bloodshed. But in the end, God pours His wrath upon Babylon (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 18), and following this is a victory cry that the servants have been avenged (19:2), and then we see the wedding feast (Revelation 19:9). The two accounts, though obviously containing some differences, are still too incredibly similar to be separate events. The parable of the wedding feast lines up perfectly with the final chapters of the Revelation.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    markedward,

                    I guess we were in different translations. I was in NASB, which did not use the phrase "the great city" in Rev 14:8. It is used in the KJV. i do have another question for you though...and I'm not trying to jab at preterism, I'm trying to understand more of what the partial preterism view teaches. I myself am a post-trib, futurist, leaning towards an amil viewpoint.

                    My next question for you is this: has Babylon the Great already been destroyed? As I understand it, Rev 16:19 makes it clear that the destruction of Babylon comes at the time of Armageddon (which is also the same time that Jesus returns and defeats the armies of Gog and Magog) and Rev 18:21 makes it clear that after the destruction of Babylon, she will not be found anymore. I would like your thoughts on this. Am I reading this correctly? Am I reading it wrong?

                    ServantoftheKing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
                      i do have another question for you though...and I'm not trying to jab at preterism, I'm trying to understand more of what the partial preterism view teaches. I myself am a post-trib, futurist, leaning towards an amil viewpoint.
                      No worries.

                      My next question for you is this: has Babylon the Great already been destroyed? As I understand it, Rev 16:19 makes it clear that the destruction of Babylon comes at the time of Armageddon (which is also the same time that Jesus returns and defeats the armies of Gog and Magog)
                      I don't think there's a connection between "Armageddon" ("Armageddon," or more literally Har-Megiddo, is a place known in history as a battle-site, not a time-frame) and the battle with Gog and Magog. There's no clear connection between the two, aside from gathering of peoples to make war. The context of each, however, is different. Revelation 16 shows armies gathering at Har-Meggido and we see the judgment of Babylon (Jerusalem). Revelation 20 shows armies gathering around God's beloved city, and God Himself destroys these armies to protect the city.

                      Revelation 16 shows God destroying a city ("the great city"), while Revelation 20 differs by showing God protecting a city ("the city He loves").

                      and Rev 18:21 makes it clear that after the destruction of Babylon, she will not be found anymore. I would like your thoughts on this. Am I reading this correctly? Am I reading it wrong?
                      I do believe Babylon the Great has been destroyed already (circa 70 AD, of course, as most Preterists tend to believe).

                      Babylon, in the Revelation, is Jerusalem as an empowered people who persecute the Christians. Looking at history - after Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD, have the Jews as a whole been able to persecute the followers of God (in relation to how Christ described them as doing so in Matthew 23, and as Babylon is described in Revelation 17)? The obvious answer is 'no.' Jerusalem lost its religious authority with its fall in 70 AD and, though the city itself is still around, the "Babylon the Great" we see in the Revelation, as a powerful city, drunk with power, persecuting the saints and prophets and apostles is gone.

                      This just reminded me of yet another point: Revelation 18:20 says that Babylon the Great persecuted the "apostles." Throughout the New Testament, the term "apostle" is limited to the Twelve, and Paul. No one else. Since Babylon is said to have persecuted the apostles, this, in my opinion, almost necessarily limits it to the first century, being the time when the apostles were alive.
                      To This Day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I do appreciate the different view. Interesting point about the apostles. Regarding Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog we do know that Armageddon is the 7th bowl, in which we see the following:

                          God's wrath
                          Great earthquake
                          Great hail
                          Mountains and islands removed

                          In the battle of Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel 38 we see the following:

                          God's wrath (Ezekiel 38:18-19)
                          Great earthquake (Ezekiel 38:19)
                          Great hail (Ezekiel 38:22)
                          Mountains thrown down (Ezekiel 38:20)

                          Also following the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 39 we see the birds of the air invited to feast on the flesh and blood of mighty men and princes. It reads a slightly different than Revelation 19's account of the birds being invited to feast on the kings, commanders, mighty men, horses and their riders, free men and slaves, small and great. There are too many similarities between the battle of Gog and Magog and Armageddon as described in the 7th bowl to just be a coincidence. We may need to start a new topic for this one. I don't want to derail the original topic. I'm out for the night.

                          ServantoftheKing

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OK, I can see the line of reasoning here, although I'm not prepared to adopt it, but I'm being open-minded about it. Here's my question, however: In Revelation 18, we see that a whole lot of the world's people seem to be devastated by this city's destruction. The economic impact this city was having on the world at the time of its destruction appears to be considerable. Jerusalem, at the time of the 70 AD Diaspora does not seem to fit this description. There were several other cities around the Roman Empire who were economically far more prosperous than Jerusalem. How do you explain that?
                            ----------------------------------------------
                            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
                              I do appreciate the different view. Interesting point about the apostles. Regarding Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog we do know that Armageddon is the 7th bowl, in which we see the following:

                              God's wrath
                              Great earthquake
                              Great hail
                              Mountains and islands removed

                              In the battle of Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel 38 we see the following:

                              God's wrath (Ezekiel 38:18-19)
                              Great earthquake (Ezekiel 38:19)
                              Great hail (Ezekiel 38:22)
                              Mountains thrown down (Ezekiel 38:20)

                              Also following the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 39 we see the birds of the air invited to feast on the flesh and blood of mighty men and princes. It reads a slightly different than Revelation 19's account of the birds being invited to feast on the kings, commanders, mighty men, horses and their riders, free men and slaves, small and great. There are too many similarities between the battle of Gog and Magog and Armageddon as described in the 7th bowl to just be a coincidence. We may need to start a new topic for this one. I don't want to derail the original topic. I'm out for the night.

                              ServantoftheKing
                              I agree, Ezekiel 38-39 is Armageddon, they are the same. Revelation 20's Gog/Magog is not the same, however. There are too many differences.
                              ----------------------------------------------
                              When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X