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  • Discussion Two Witnesses in Revelation

    I am a new member to this site and I accepted christ almost two years ago, since that time I have had a strogn calling on my life to study Revelation and the end times.

    Now to the topic of the two witnesses, I know that alot of people feel that they will be Elijah and Moses. I agree that one will be Elijah and be his promised return, however I feel that the other will be Enoch. Simply because Elijah and Enoch are the only two humans in the history of Earth to be raptured away to heaven and never die.

    I am interested to hear your opinions no matter who you think the witnesses will be. I just want to knwo why you feel the way you do so I can look mor ein to it my self.

    Thanks

  • #2
    You are right about Elijah and Enoch – that's a possibility

    The other possibility, as you know, is Elijah and Moses:
    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    When Jesus was asked about Elijah, he said Elijah (John the Baptist) has already come.
    (When John was asked, he didn’t claim to be Elijah.)

    Nobody recognized John as Elijah, so I don’t know that we would be able to recognize Enoch or Moses either.

    Still, the two witnesses will come and will speak and do as God has said.
    The world will not know them – nor will they listen.
    Instead, they’ll have a party and give gifts when the Antichrist has them killed.

    Richard

    Comment


    • #3
      My thoughts on Elijah and Enoch as being the two witnesses is if they are brought back they are going to be two very old men fighting a major battle against the beast. Does time stop in heaven? What would a several thousand year old man look like? Also, if Elijah and Mosses were the two witnesses then why didn't John not call them by name in his vision? He saw them standing beside Jesus the night of his transfiguration so he knew their faces. I think they are going to be two men who have the same love for the lord as Elijah or Enoch or Mosses. But not necessarily them.

      Comment


      • #4
        Personally,
        Moses and Elijah - the law and the prophets.

        They testify to Jesus.
        Mat 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
        Mat 11:14 And if you are willing to receive, he is Elijah, the one going to come.

        Richard

        Comment


        • #5
          I would rule out Moses because of this scripture:

          Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

          As we know Moses has already died and the witnesses also die and this would make Moses die twice.

          Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

          Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

          But I'm not sure it would be Elijah and Enoch or some other people not born before at all.

          Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

            My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.

            Rev 11:9 seems to speak of bodies of men, but did Israel even grieve over the passing away of their covenant hope? With their priesthood & temple removed, they quickly turned to the Pharisees, and Judaism is no longer the same religion it once was.
            Robin

            Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
            And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
            Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
            Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SoldierOfChrist View Post
              I would rule out Moses because of this scripture:

              Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

              As we know Moses has already died and the witnesses also die and this would make Moses die twice.

              Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

              Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

              But I'm not sure it would be Elijah and Enoch or some other people not born before at all.

              Michael
              Yer right about dying once, Michael.
              That rules out Moses. LOL

              The Jews set a place at the Sader (passover table) for Elijah, but as Jesus said. Elijah has already come. ...And they (actually... the Romans) cut off his head!

              That rules out Elijah.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

                My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.
                Metaphorical dead bodies seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would say they will Enoch and Elijah. Rev. 11 refers to symbols that show people that started something will finish it. It speaks of how the two will finish their testimony. John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.
                  The angel described the last two woes that will come.

                  the temple - John saw and measured

                  "And there was given me a reed...."

                  But from the point of doing the measuring of things - John was only hearing a story by an angel.

                  the angel stood saying
                  I will give power unto my two witnesses
                  The angel only told how Gentiles will tread under the holy city for 42 months.

                  You never see where John writes as to having seen any of that.

                  Thus, after the angel tells about the last two woes - the 6th and 7th trumpet, he lets John know things - including that the third woe will come quickly.
                  The two witnesses are to rise at the same hour as the third woe earthquake.
                  http://prophecyinsights.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
                    I would say they will Enoch and Elijah. Rev. 11 refers to symbols that show people that started something will finish it. It speaks of how the two will finish their testimony. John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.
                    Thought I would throw out this also as it does say who will finish it.

                    Zechariah 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

                    I can't remember who is the other one is that many think will come, that is spoken of in Zechariah?

                    Michael

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Zerubbabel was an example - as in being the candlestick and olive trees - as he started a job and will finish it.
                      Zec.4
                      Verse 11 speaks of two more - the two that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

                      the two anointed ones

                      Rev. 11:4
                      "...the two...standing before the God of the earth."


                      Hebrews 11 shows that Enoch was translated at the time he had a testimony.

                      Rev. 11:7
                      "And when they shall have finished their testimony..."
                      http://prophecyinsights.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        John didn't name the people, because John was only hearing a prophecy being given by an angel.


                        Revelation 1:1-2 LT Revelation 1:1 ¶ This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, 2 who faithfully reported everything he saw.

                        This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone saying that Revelation was something other than a vision. However, I have always interpreted a vision as something like a dream where you witness something in your mind and have full conscience of the surroundings. I may be wrong but the following lines really indicates John was witnessing what he was seeing not just hearing.
                        Revelation 11:12 2 Then a loud voice from heaven called to the two prophets, "Come up here!" And they rose to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched.

                        I think I am correct on this being a full vision and not just an audible interpretation of what the angel told him. And certainly if John saw Mosses and Elijah he would know their faces and he did not recognize them as the two witnesses. I think the two witnesses will be two men or women of God who love him as much as the prophets as ancient days did. As we all know our bodies wear out and die but love endure all time.
                        1 Corinthians 13:13 3 Three things will last forever-- faith, hope, and love-- and the greatest of these is love.

                        These two men will have a love for God so great that it could be compared to those prophets of ancient days.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mograce2U View Post
                          There is something metaphorical going on here which suggests that it is not literally 2 men we are to see; rather something being personified. Moses and Elijah do represent the Law and the Prophets - the 2 witnesses given to Israel. v6 specifically references the plagues upon Egypt during the Exodus and Elijah praying it not rain when he saw it was time for Israel under Ahab to be judged (1 Kings 17). There is also the references to the 2 olive trees/ 2 candlesticks from Zec 4 which give us the angelic source of how the law and prophecy came to Israel.

                          My opinion is that the Law and Testimony is in view here as coming to fulfillment - just before the word of the Lord returns to the One who gave it (Isa 8:20); having accomplished what it was sent to do. It is the final passing of the old covenant which came in 70 AD.

                          Rev 11:9 seems to speak of bodies of men, but did Israel even grieve over the passing away of their covenant hope? With their priesthood & temple removed, they quickly turned to the Pharisees, and Judaism is no longer the same religion it once was.
                          Why would the beast want to kill the Law and Testimony, Robin? I think we need to let scripture interpret scripture when it comes to interpreting the two witnesses.

                          Rev 11:7
                          And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

                          Rev 13:1,7
                          1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

                          In Rev 11:7, the beast ascends to power and makes war against the two witnesses and overcomes them. In Rev 13:7, the beast ascends to power and makes war with the saints and overcomes them. Therefore, I believe the two witnesses is a symbolic reference for the saints. The two witnesses are called two candlesticks.

                          Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                          So, elsewhere in the very same book we see that candlesticks represent churches. They are also called two olive trees. From reading Romans 11, we can see that believing Gentiles from the wild olive tree, are grafted in with believing Jews in the good olive tree. So, it seems to me that the two witnesses is a symbolic term for the church witnessing to the world with Jew and Gentile believers of the church witnessing together. Jesus sent out His disciples two by two (Luke 10), which could account for why the church is referred to as "two witnesses". Also, it says people around the world can view their dead bodies. That is more evidence that it's not speaking of just two people, but many.

                          Anyway, since it refers to dead bodies which are resurrected and ascend to heaven, I can't see how it could be the Law and Testimony and that it must be referring to actual people that are killed. I believe their ascension represents the dead in Christ rising first and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before those who are alive and remain are caught up with them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Richard H View Post
                            Yer right about dying once, Michael.
                            That rules out Moses. LOL

                            The Jews set a place at the Sader (passover table) for Elijah, but as Jesus said. Elijah has already come. ...And they (actually... the Romans) cut off his head!

                            That rules out Elijah.
                            There may be exceptions to the rule:

                            Lazarus died twice, and other have been raised from the dead.

                            Also those who are remain and are alive at His coming, will they have a death?

                            I have another question:

                            How will they [the two witnesses] be killed?
                            I mean, if it is by some physical means, would it not be possible for anyone to blast them away.
                            For 42 months, they are a torment for many, and it takes the beast to make war with them, and overcome them.
                            I would guess that it is by some spiritual power that they are slayed.

                            Could it be that the two witnesses are not dead, but asleep.

                            Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                              There may be exceptions to the rule:

                              Lazarus died twice, and other have been raised from the dead.

                              Also those who are remain and are alive at His coming, will they have a death?

                              I have another question:

                              How will they [the two witnesses] be killed?
                              I mean, if it is by some physical means, would it not be possible for anyone to blast them away.
                              For 42 months, they are a torment for many, and it takes the beast to make war with them, and overcome them.
                              I would guess that it is by some spiritual power that they are slayed.

                              Could it be that the two witnesses are not dead, but asleep.

                              Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
                              Hi Partaker,
                              Lazarus would be an exception. J

                              It’s interesting how Jesus dallied – even though He was probably not that far away –waiting until Lazarus was dead 2 days.
                              (Past the Jewish idea that someone “might” somehow return.)
                              Like the dead girl you mentioned from Matthew 9, Jesus said He was going to “wake” Lazarus up,
                              but then He had to clarify things and tell people that Lazarus was indeed dead. (John 11)

                              …However he wasn’t dead for thousands of years.



                              Those who survive until right before the bowls will not taste death. (…timing is my opinion, but that seems to be the sequence)
                              Scripture says they will be transformed – given “glorified’ bodies.
                              I suppose you could say that they get to pass directly from life into everlasting life.

                              Blast them (the witnesses) away? That’s sort of funny to me – I guess God would have to put them back together.
                              Scripture does say that their bodies will remain in the streets for 3 days (yes, they are actually dead) and then be raised.
                              The antichrist (Abaddon, the destroyer – the beast from the abyss) is allowed to kill them, so that all will be fulfilled.
                              Their resurrection is their final “witness” to the world.

                              ‘Good questions. Thanks for pointing out Lazarus.

                              Richard
                              Last edited by Richard H; Sep 17th 2008, 12:06 AM. Reason: Added "(the witnesses)"

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