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  • What is the sign of the Return?

    Now, I know that the POV's in this forum vary, from the pre-trib rapture people to the post-trib amils out there, and even some that aren't even in the sphere of mainstream.... (and we know who we are, don't we! hehehehehehehe).

    Anyway. What is the sign of His coming, and how can we tell that He is coming? I base this question on 1 Thessalonians 5. Here's the verses.

    1Thes 5:1-3
    But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Ok. We see that the Lord cometh as a thief in the night, right?

    1Thes 5:4-6
    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

    Now, looking at this, I get the impression that we are not to be ignorant as to the Coming of the Lord. Paul seem to indicate that there are signs by which we are to look for, hence the phrase, "let us WATCH, and be sober". Is Paul a liar?

    Of course not! Jesus said the same thing!
    -And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. -Matthew 24:4

    -When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand -Matthew 24:15

    -Behold, I have told you before. -Matthew 24:25

    -Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. -Matthew 24:32-33

    So....
    What is the sign of His coming? I mean, what event can we all point to that screams out, "Here He comes!"? I am very interested in reading what is out there.

  • #2
    Matthew 24:27-31/Luke 21:28 -

    "As lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    "Immediately after the distress of those days
    " 'the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
    "

    I defy anybody to give me a reason why Jesus was not addressing the infant Church at this point. He was no more addressing "Israel" than he was addressing the Cherokee Indians.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ok.
      According to the scriptures you cited, the sign of the Lord's return is when He is coming in clouds of heaven.

      Right after that, you show scripture that says that immediately after the distress of those time, the sign would come. Luke.... why did you open this door? Does that mean that we are to watch for something other than the Him coming in clouds of heaven?

      Comment


      • #4
        I think this is the winner.

        -When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand -Matthew 24:15
        Acts 17:11

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by third hero View Post
          Ok.
          According to the scriptures you cited, the sign of the Lord's return is when He is coming in clouds of heaven.

          Right after that, you show scripture that says that immediately after the distress of those time, the sign would come. Luke.... why did you open this door?
          I didn't open it, Jesus did. That was a word-for-word quote from Jesus. I thought He was quite clear.
          Originally posted by third hero View Post
          Does that mean that we are to watch for something other than the Him coming in clouds of heaven?
          You're talking about "immanency"? "Immanency" is a myth. Just because there are other things that will happen before the 2nd Coming does not mean that we are not to be looking forward to the 2nd Coming. Jesus Himself told us that when you see the fig tree sprouting leaves, the time is near. Sounds like Jesus was espousing exactly the same thing to me. What's the confusion about?
          ----------------------------------------------
          When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Khoolaid View Post
            I think this is the winner.

            -When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand -Matthew 24:15
            That quote is instructions for run for the hills - read the next phrase - "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". That doesn't sound like instructions to "lift your heads, because your redemption draws nigh." Jesus says to run for your life at that point. That hardly sounds like the moment of the triumphant 2nd Coming to me.
            ----------------------------------------------
            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

            Comment


            • #7
              One "sign" to look for is scoffers.
              As there were scoffers after Y2K, so I think it will be after 2012.

              Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

              And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
              2 Peter 3:3,4


              For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
              But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
              1 Thes 5:3,4

              Comment


              • #8
                The reason why there were scoffers after Y2K and that there will be scoffers after 2012 is because there are those who thought that the imminent return of the Lord was to happen right before a major "catastrophic" event, neither of which happpened in Y2K, and, Lord willing, not in 2012 either.

                This is exactly why I have created this thread, because like some have already said, which I agree with, Jesus has left us with clear signs to watch out for. One thing that I noticed is when this question is presented, a lot of times, I get either totally unbiblical answers or something that causes the koo-koo bird in my head to go off.

                All of which leads me to ask yet again: What are the things that we are to look out for that signal the return of the Lord?

                Is it the Abomination that causes Desolation? What about the mission of the two lampstands? And the period of darkness that the Beast's kingdom falls into, where mankind loses it and begins to slaughter each other, is that what we are to look for?

                Jesus says that He is coming as a thief, and Paul mentions the same thing, and yet both of them mention to us that we are to watch. If He is suddenly going to just pop up out of nowhere, then why would our Lord tell us to watch?

                Anyway, these are some things to chew over right now, especially for those exhausted from the ethnic Israel debates.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I take the Peace and safety part as being when the wicked people will send gifts to each other, as foretold by the angel in Rev. 11.

                  1 Thes. 5:3
                  "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..."

                  The wicked party right before they start to get destroyed at the Lord's coming for His church.
                  Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 23rd 2008, 03:41 PM.
                  http://prophecyinsights.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    People often want to put everything inside the given box.
                    For example: nowhere does it say that the all the seals, bowels, and wrath of Revelation take place within Daniel's 70th week.

                    And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

                    And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
                    Rev 6:5,6

                    'Could be in tomorrow's paper - as things are beginning to look.
                    (I think the "week" begins with something having to do with the treaty or the temple.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
                      I take the Peace and safety part as being when the wicked people of the world will send gifts to each, as foretold by the angel in Rev. 11.

                      1 Thes. 5:3
                      "For when they shall say, Peace and safety,; then sudden destruction cometh upon them..."

                      The wicked party right before they start to get destroyed at the Lord's coming for His church.
                      I agree.

                      A "double" fulfillment? The former scoffers being a shadow?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi third hero

                        If you are want, you can look into this prophecy in Romans 10:19
                        "..Did not Israel know? First Moses saith...I will provoke you...[and] by a foolish nation I will anger you."

                        Do you see this as linked up with what Moses prophesied as to the endtimes in Deuteronomy 32?

                        V21
                        "...I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."
                        V20
                        "I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]..."

                        Could this then end when God shows His face in the 6th seal of Revelation, which causes the wicked to hide?

                        The time of Isaiah 2:10-21?
                        the day of the Lord begins
                        the time of the wicked hide from His glory and His wrath

                        Before this time of the wicked hide - will come the time of the church will flee from the face of Satan.
                        ///for the time of Rev. 12

                        so
                        Let's say that Moses told about a nation that will anger Israel in the end days. Could this nation be what the sealed riders are about in Rev. 6?

                        Thus, the first seal rider was the first ruler of that nation.
                        http://prophecyinsights.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Richard H View Post
                          I agree.

                          A "double" fulfillment? The former scoffers being a shadow?
                          All right, then you know too that when the Word of God comes riding on a white horse in Rev. 19 (time of Armageddon) that this is not when He comes to rapture the church?
                          At Armageddon - the wicked are not about hurrying and purchasing gifts. They are gathered for battle. They are not surprised that Jesus exists - they already saw Him earlier when He came and the church was gathered in the 7th trumpet time.

                          Peace and safety
                          ends with Jesus comes as a thief on them

                          Armageddon troops on the earth gather
                          and Jesus comes with His all changed earlier saints down from heaven.
                          Jesus comes as a thief this time too - but a warning went out for people to keep their garments/// - as in don't die. Jesus won't be changing anybody on this trip!

                          He comes in chapter 19 with His saints as "armies", and then the saints that had yet to defeat the beast - go as one army to take him down.
                          Then all the victors (saints) that overcame the beast - will get to reign for 1000 years.
                          http://prophecyinsights.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by third hero View Post
                            The reason why there were scoffers after Y2K and that there will be scoffers after 2012 is because there are those who thought that the imminent return of the Lord was to happen right before a major "catastrophic" event, neither of which happpened in Y2K, and, Lord willing, not in 2012 either.

                            This is exactly why I have created this thread, because like some have already said, which I agree with, Jesus has left us with clear signs to watch out for. One thing that I noticed is when this question is presented, a lot of times, I get either totally unbiblical answers or something that causes the koo-koo bird in my head to go off.

                            All of which leads me to ask yet again: What are the things that we are to look out for that signal the return of the Lord?

                            Is it the Abomination that causes Desolation? What about the mission of the two lampstands? And the period of darkness that the Beast's kingdom falls into, where mankind loses it and begins to slaughter each other, is that what we are to look for?

                            Jesus says that He is coming as a thief, and Paul mentions the same thing, and yet both of them mention to us that we are to watch. If He is suddenly going to just pop up out of nowhere, then why would our Lord tell us to watch?

                            Anyway, these are some things to chew over right now, especially for those exhausted from the ethnic Israel debates.
                            I'm confused - Jesus' answer is very plain as I posted above. What more do we need?
                            ----------------------------------------------
                            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You have 2 questions, 1 about "one stone not being on another" and 2- what will be be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

                              When you see the abomination- ( jerusalem surrounded by armies ) answers the first.
                              Those are the days or Trib / vengeance that befell the Jews-- in their exile and treatment among th nations

                              The second is answered when Jerusalem is no longer trampled by nations. ( end of their exile perhaps)
                              After the Trib of those days the heavens begin to disintegrate, and through that we see Jesus coming.
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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