Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Daniel and the End Time

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Daniel and the End Time

    I'll start by asking people if you have ever given thought to that we are not look for ten horns as a group first, but instead - 13?

    You may think that Daniel 7 shows ten horns and the man of sin. Okay, I agree - but is there something else there that is a major key?

    Why do I think there are 13?
    Daniel 7
    Daniel saw several visions. He did not just see one continuous message.

    V7
    "After this I saw in the night visions..."
    After what?
    After he had already seen the vision that came first in this chapter.
    Notice that V7 says "visions" and V2 "vision".

    Daniel is seeing a second set of events at V7.

    Daniel 7:1
    "In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions..."
    V2
    "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night..."
    V3
    "...four great beasts came up from the the sea..."


    So in V7 is the same fourth beast being seen?
    In verse 7, the 4th beast there has ten horns and is stated as "diverse from all the beasts that [were] before [it]..."
    V7's 4th beast vision is not quite like the one that happened in verses 2-6.
    It is diverse - diverse from all the others that Daniel has already seen.

    Daniel 7:3
    "And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another."
    V7
    "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast...diverse from all the beasts that [were] before [it]; and it had ten horns."

    So in the second vision time is where Daniel tells about a second fourth beast and it has ten horns.
    So how many horns were on the 4th beast during the first vision of this night?

    Daniel began the chapter by letting us know that he will tell the sum (essential content) of the matters. I take this as we are to understand that Daniel has not written it all out detail by detail. Daniel would just give us an overall summary as to what things were shown that night.


    Daniel 7:1
    "...visions..."
    So we have to go in and break them down. We have to dig deeply and see what Daniel has actually told us.

    V2
    "....I saw in my vision..."
    ///So here comes a summary of vision one.
    four great beasts
    came up from the sea
    diverse from one another

    vision one
    first - like a lion
    second - like a bear
    third - leopard
    fourth????
    Daniel skipped over this one's description.
    Why did he do that? Why didn't Daniel tell us about the looks of the fourth beast for the first vision of that night? Because - he would get a second vision that had a quite similar one - and will link their stories together.

    vision - 2
    We get a fourth beast description given to us, and this 4th beast has ten horns.
    "...there came up among them another little horn..."

    Daniel sees "another little horn". But Daniel has seen this dude already once in this chapter.
    "...before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots..."
    We now know what happened as to the 4th beast in vision 1 of this night. Daniel saw 13 horns and three were plucked up by the roots of this "another little horn" person. (that has "eyes like the eyes of man and a mouth speaking great things)

    Verses 11-13 tell what Daniel saw in the time of the second fourth beast vision - "then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake...till the beast was given to the burning flame..."

    Notice that the other vision of the little horn lasted clear till the books were opened.
    V10
    "...the books were opened."

    So where are the 13 horns that will get three of their group plucked up by a king of another place?

    I don''t know. I have watched euro nations - right now there are 13 - in Europe (on the land) and 2 in the isles.
    If the island ones were gone - as in taken over first, then that could leave only 13, but I don't know, so I just keep watching.
    Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 24th 2008, 04:56 PM.
    http://prophecyinsights.com

  • #2
    7:17-18
    "These great beasts which [are] four kings...But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom..."
    So my question is?
    Isn't anyone else wondering why Daniel only described three of them to us?
    Where did he see the little horn here that he watched till the saints took the kingdom?
    All four great beasts were to be diverse from one another/ per verse 3.

    Then if this is to be considered - one of those same four - Why did Daniel add the part as to "diverse" - for we would have already known that?

    V19
    "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast which was diverse from all the others..."

    Sounds as if we have five beasts pictured in this story.
    The little horn seems to be seen by Daniel twice.
    Daniel beheld the little horn with a mouth and eyes...till the books were opened.
    And we get a story of how he beheld the horn till his body was given to the burning flame.

    See what I'm saying?
    Daniel took us clear to the time of the books were opened in V10, and then in V11 begins to refer to the horn again and watches things till the beast is given to the burning flame.
    Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 24th 2008, 04:11 PM.
    http://prophecyinsights.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Explain more clearly why you believe that the fourth beast (the one that is "dreadful and terrible and exceedingly strong and had huge iron teeth ... and it had ten horns") is not the fourth of the four beasts of 7:1-3.

      Because, as far as the text goes... it was.

      1:3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

      1:4 The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.

      Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number one.

      1:5 And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear.

      Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number two.

      1:6 After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard.

      Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number three.

      1:7 After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

      Daniel says he saw four beasts: hand-count, this is number four. Daniel directly states this beast. Hand-count, this is the fourth of four, exactly the number Daniel originally saw. There is no reason to interpret the text to say that Daniel has, without warning, switched to a new vision with a different fourth beast. That's eisegesis: Daniel mentions no skipping between multiple visions, he originally said he saw four beasts, we read, consecutively, four beasts, and the whole narration has a continuous flow, so for you to claim that Daniel had multiple visions and that he jumped between the two of them is completely unfound in the text.
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi markedward

        What version are you using, because most that I have seen make the word vision - become plural at V7?

        "After this I saw in the night visions...diverse from all..."
        Now he sees another diverse beast.
        How come?

        Ch 7
        V3
        "And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another."
        V17
        "These great beasts, which are four..."
        V19
        "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others..."

        Daniel tells us.....
        V21-23
        "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. Until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints..."
        So - the same horn story is seen clear till the time of the ancient of days, and the saints judge and possess the kingdom.
        V10 takes it clear till the books get opened.
        as - in all the way to the great white throne time

        Yet - V11 begins an account of a time only lasting tlll when he is cast into the burning flame.

        At verse 13 does your bible version show the word "visions"?
        ///as in now another - a third vision is being seen by Danel that night
        Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 24th 2008, 05:13 PM.
        http://prophecyinsights.com

        Comment


        • #5
          I wish I could see (if it is correct) what the common theory is as to Daniel 7's meaning - as to 10 horns. But I read it - and saw there were 13 and the little horn that is very mouthy.

          Maybe you guys can tell me - once Daniel saw the little horn - what happened?
          As in - the little horn was seen - and then how did that vision end?

          I ask because I see two different vision endings being shown once that little horn came on the scene.
          one - lasts till the books get opened
          the other - till the beast is cast into the fire

          Daniel heard him mouthing off in two different Daniel 7 visions.
          Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 24th 2008, 05:16 PM.
          http://prophecyinsights.com

          Comment


          • #6
            The common interpretation just doesn't seem to fit for me.
            Why does Daniel seem to only tell us about three beasts - then the second vision of the night starts? Daniel refers to as a fourth beast..and before the chapter ends, he tells us two different times that he saw the mouthy little horn - alongside other horns.

            summary
            visions

            vision
            v2
            four great beasts
            diverse from one another

            v7
            visions
            a fourth beast
            diverse from all the others
            has ten horns
            and aother little horn came up ( the same little horn that plucked up three horns earlier)

            beheld - a vision with that horn in it
            till the books were opened

            and also - till the beast was cast into the flame

            V13 gives us yet another vision time.
            "And I saw in the night visions, and behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,...his dominion is an everlasting dominion..."

            V15
            "...the visions of my head troubled me."
            Last edited by vinsight4u8; Sep 24th 2008, 05:22 PM.
            http://prophecyinsights.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
              I wish I could see (if it is correct) what the common theory is as to Daniel 7's meaning - as to 10 horns. But I read it - and saw there were 13 and the little horn that is very mouthy.

              Maybe you guys can tell me - once Daniel saw the little horn - what happened?
              As in - the little horn was seen - and then how did that vision end?

              I ask because I see two different vision endings being shown once that little horn came on the scene.
              one - lasts till the books get opened
              the other - till the beast is cast into the fire

              Daniel heard him mouthing off in two different Daniel 7 visions.

              hi,

              i see what you are saying. dont agree with it thou.

              daniel only speaks of the four beasts. the prophecy does not end with fourth beasst. the little horn plucks up 3 horns, boast a little. Then the court room setting. then the little horn boasting again for a short while. then the beast in fire.

              it is all one prophecy Dan7:1-11.
              It has an begining point in time and a ending point in time. Nothing in the middle that constetute a new prophecy. No mess no fuss


              bennie

              Comment


              • #8
                Rev 13 also includes these same beasts. Although the Eagles wings are not there.
                Wise men
                still seek Him
                ---------------------------
                * 1 cross
                + 3 nails
                = 4 given
                ------------------

                It is best to;
                Build your belief around the bible
                Do Not build the bible around your belief !!!!
                You will then find yourself on solid ground.[/color]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Throughout Daniel chapter 7 the word chezev/vision is used.

                  2376chezev (Aramaic) { khay’-zev}

                  from 2370; TWOT - 2725a; n m

                  AV - vision 11, look 1; 12

                  GK - 10256 { WzjÔ
                  }*

                  1) vision, appearance
                  1a) vision
                  1b) appearance[1]

                  It is impossible to break Daniel 7 into portions from the Aramaic word ‘chezev’ 2376.

                  [1]Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.


                  PC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gods Child View Post
                    Rev 13 also includes these same beasts. Although the Eagles wings are not there.
                    Hi Gods Child, I am in full agreement with you.
                    Also I agree with your many points on Daniel 7 on another thread but we had some bad storms for three weeks with power cuts and I could not get back to you.

                    PC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Keeping sending the post guys, I am learning !!!

                      my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                      If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                      Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bennie View Post
                        hi,

                        i see what you are saying. dont agree with it thou.

                        daniel only speaks of the four beasts. the prophecy does not end with fourth beasst. the little horn plucks up 3 horns, boast a little. Then the court room setting. then the little horn boasting again for a short while. then the beast in fire.

                        it is all one prophecy Dan7:1-11.
                        It has an begining point in time and a ending point in time. Nothing in the middle that constetute a new prophecy. No mess no fuss


                        bennie
                        So on a timeline - one prophecy start to the finish.

                        and we get - four great beasts up from the sea
                        little horn seen with 10 other horns

                        he boasts - then the books are opened - then the little horn boasts again
                        Is that how you see it?

                        That would mean that at the time long after Armageddon for chapter 19 - where the beast is to get cast into the lake of fire - comes - the books are opened -in chapter 20 - then the little horn beast will start boasting again - and go to the lake again?

                        huh?

                        Where did the little horn come from after the fourth beast desciption message started - he boasted - and it lasted clear to the time of the books were opened.

                        So how is there a little horn left - or even a fourth beast left after this point?
                        The message took us clear to the time of almost the new heaven and the new earth.

                        Next up in Daniel 7 - comes the little horn boasts again?
                        I ask, where Daniel could even get one more from?

                        The 4th beast story began - lasted clear to the judging at the great white throne scene.

                        So - where can Daniel now get another little horn from and have it go around boasting?

                        I say - Daniel saw two fourth beasts.

                        one message - where he entered the picture was - till the books were opened

                        the other

                        till the beast was cast into the burning flame
                        "destroyed and given to the burning flame"

                        So one little horn is destroyed and goes to the fire.
                        (he had been boasting before that time)

                        And one little horn was seen in a message - that message had him in it boasting, but the prophecy picture didn't stop till the books were opened.

                        How can the fourth beast story - have two story endings?

                        one- at the time of the burning flame

                        the other
                        ends - when the books are opened
                        http://prophecyinsights.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here's a site that speaks as to the Aramaic wording in Daniel 7.

                          http://tcliang.im.tku.edu.tw/bible/n...dan7_notes.htm
                          http://prophecyinsights.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There should be a correlation between Daniel and Revlations?:

                            And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1)

                            And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

                            This is where I get the Ten Regions and "kings" from

                            my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                            If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                            Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What if we look at it as this for Daniel 7?

                              We are being told about visions that Daniel saw.

                              V1
                              "...visions...upon his bed..."

                              So now let's find out how many visions he saw?

                              V2
                              "...I saw in my vision by night..."
                              four great beasts

                              V7
                              "After this I saw in the night visions...a fourth beast..."
                              doesn't say - great beast
                              "diverse from all the beasts that were before it"
                              "it had ten horns"

                              So the fourth beast in the previous vision - did not have a total of ten horns?

                              V13
                              "I saw in the night visions..."
                              Now we hear about a vision involving seeing the [one] like the Son of man come with the clouds of heaven.

                              Explanations:

                              V17
                              "These great beasts, which are four..."

                              ---------------------------------------------------------
                              V19
                              "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others.
                              V20
                              "And of the ten horns that {were] in his head..."


                              We were to only get the essential parts to know what went on that night. Okay, then why would we told again - that this in the night and any wording as to "visions" being repeated?

                              saw visions
                              then we get told about a vision

                              then vision -becomes in the plural from -
                              at verse 7
                              then in the night part is repeated again for v13.

                              Since V3 mentions that all the four great beasts are diverse from each other, then why
                              again at V7 mention the part as to "diverse"?

                              I say, it is because we are to understand that four great beasts came up from the sea in vision 1. In vision 2, a fourth beast with less horns was seen. It too is diverse -as in diverse from those of vision 1.
                              http://prophecyinsights.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X