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  • Post Trib Believers...Questions???

    I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

    I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

    Blessings...
    "...For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict, or resist...Luke 21:15"...I am looking for the remnant....sigpic

  • #2
    One thing that comes to mind for me is that yes indeed Christ will come as a thief in the night even for us post tribbers. Let me give you an analogy, if you live in a high crime area, even those high risk areas thieves come silently in the night. Just because you know that there are going to be thieves does not mean that you know exactly when he will come. And I believe that we as Christians will know the end is near but there will be great hardships that will test our faith.

    God Bless

    Comment


    • #3
      Ok, I believe that the first portion of the question needs to be answered biblically.


      For instance, the dispensational definition of "Rapture" is the point in time when Lord Jesus takes all of the believers to heaven. That definition is unbiblical. Here is why.

      Everytime that the Lord or an Apostle mentions anything concerning the retrieving of Believers, He does not mention where the believer goes. It is only mentioned that they are brought to Him, and that they will forever be with Him. Take a look at some of these scriptures.

      For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


      Notice that the Lord descends from heaven, and we are brought to Him in the air. The meeting place is in the air, and the Lord actually descends. This is the same as what Lord Jesus told the Disciples in Matthew 24.


      And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -verses 30-31.

      In these verses, the Lord says that He descends and then sends His angels to gather His people. This is the exact same language as what Paul used.

      Now, going back to what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, let's see what he called this event that he described.

      For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. -1 Thessalonians 4:15

      As you can see, Paul callls the event when He descends and retrieves us "the Coming of the Lord". It is not a "rapture", but the gathering that comes with the Coming of the Lord, the very same gathering that Lord Jesus Himself told the Disciples.

      Now understand this, the word rapture is unbiblical, because of the connotations that it is separate than the return of the Lord. It is not separate, but as Lord Jesus and Paul stated, they are one and the same.

      With that in mind, we have to ask the question, "when is the coming of the Lord?" We look yet again to Matthew 24 for the answer. Jesus tells us exactly when He is coming, and we need to understand this concept.

      Matthew 24:29
      Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

      Which tribulation? The one He describes from verse 21-28. This is what we call, the Great Tribulation. And so, this is why Jesus will wait until after the Tribulation in to come and retrieve all of us. Because the Bible tells us that this is the time in which He will return.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, third hero is 100% spot-on.

        The trouble with this whole idea of "the tribulation period" or "seven-year tribulation period" is that neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament know the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" period" or "the great tribulation". The term "the great tribulation" and the word "tribulation" has been falsely used by many prophecy teachers in the last 100 years or more to describe the period during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world.

        The only three times the Greek New Testament mentions megas thlipsis (great tribulation), these are in the context of the trib of the saints at the hand of the world - and the great trib of the saints at the hand of the beast immediately precedes the wrath of God.

        The Greek words thlibo and thlipsis have been translated as "tribuation" or "affliction" or "distress" or "suffering" etc in the English Bibles. But the word thlibo is always used to describe the trib of the saints, and only two of the roughly 29 times that the word thlipsis appears, is it in the context of the trib of the world at the hand of God, namely, once where Paul says that at the time of the return of Christ, God will repay the world with tribulation (thlipsis) because of the tribulation (thlibo) the world had brought upon the saints; and once where Paul says "tribulation (thlipsis) and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil".

        The rest of the time, the New Testament references to thlpsis and thlibo (tribulation) are in the context of the trib of the saints - not of the "trib" of unbelievers.

        The "trib" of unbelievers is consistently called wrath in the New Testament - not "tribulation".

        We will be saved from God's wrath - not from tribulation or from the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of antichrist.

        Remember that Noah was told to get himself and his family into the ark seven days before the wrath of God was poured out in the form of the flood - and Noah and the redeemed family remained until the seventh of seven days, and on the seventh of seven days, God shut the door of the ark, and the wrath of God began to be poured out upon the world in the form of the flood. No-one could enter into the ark after God shut the door on the seventh of seven days:

        "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His authority. And no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." (Rev.15: 8).

        ananias
        "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

        And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

        Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
        (Mat.23: 8-10)

        AND

        "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

        By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
        (Joh.13: 34-35)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lady Ashanti View Post
          I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

          I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

          Blessings...

          Hi Lady Ashanti. Just here to say I find it interesting that you've gone from pre to mid-trib, just as I've gone from mid to pre-trib. I do however, agree with you about knowing...probably not to the hour, but I think those of us who believe AND watch will have a better and better idea of when as the time grows ever closer.

          Can't say as I've ever understood a post-trib position. Unless we're talking about those who become believers during the trib.

          Good subject, though! I'll be following this thread.

          Comment


          • #6
            I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

            Blessings...
            Good morning Lady

            Im a post trib because --
            the rapture cannot happen before the ressurection, and the ressurection happens the last day.
            Why is it called the last day?

            [QUOTE MATT 24] "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky[/QUOTE]


            "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
            36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
            37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
            [QUOTE 2PET 3]The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

            10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
            11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
            12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
            13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells[/QUOTE]

            [QUOTE JOB 14]"But man dies and lies prostrate.
            Man expires, and where is he?
            11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
            And a river becomes parched and dried up,
            12 So man lies down and does not rise.
            Until the heavens are no longer,

            He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
            13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
            That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
            That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
            14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
            All the days of my struggle I will wait
            Until my change comes. [/QUOTE]

            [QUOTE 2THESS 1]This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
            6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
            7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
            8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
            9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
            10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day,
            and to be marveled at among all who have believedófor our testimony to you was believed.[/QUOTE]

            All quotes in red suggest that all tribulation will be past ,when the Lord comes to get us.

            For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
            There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
            26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
            27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
            28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lady Ashanti View Post
              I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer, [also do not believe that the coming of our Lord will be like a thief in the night to us, only to those who are unbelievers], however...

              I have questions because this is something I really do not understand, and would like to see your point of view, [not trying to be rude, or sarscatic], what would be God's purpose for rapturing His people up after the tribulation, [everything is all over]? What scriptures brought you to a post-trib conclusion?

              Blessings...
              The purpose of the Post-Trib Rapture is to protect us from the wrath of God that will occur just after the Tribulation, during the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord and the Tribulation are not the same thing.

              As for Scriptures, you really don't want me burying this thread in an avalanche of Scriptures......

              If you're really interested, I'll start another thread.
              ----------------------------------------------
              When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lady Ashanti View Post
                I used to be a Pre-Trib believer, however now I am a Mid-Trib believer,
                Lady

                I also changed from pre-trib to mid -trib beacuse I believe the wrath of God will be exercised during the last part of the Tribulation.

                and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

                It may sound funny to many people but nowadays I believe after intensive study that the Final Trib will not be 7 years, but will be "conditioned based" and God will determine the length of it.

                There will definitely be a Rapture:

                Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

                John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
                1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

                Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

                Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise.
                Last edited by Roelof; Sep 29th 2008, 03:15 AM.

                my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                Comment


                • #9
                  His purpose of a post-trib rapture?
                  The church will be spared the vials of God's wrath time, unitl the one that brings the battle of Amrageddon. Then "armies" of saints will come from heaven (that were also in the Rev. 19 marriage.

                  Of those "armies" of saints- only one will continue on to fight at Armageddon as to taking down the beast.
                  (the trib saints army already was victorious over the beast by refusing to follow him)


                  Acts 24:15
                  "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

                  John 5:29
                  "And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

                  The vials will be the last set of seven plagues. But the church went home to heaven following the start of the 7th trumpet.
                  Daniel 12 shows there will be two sections of time - 1290 days and then 45 more days.
                  The vials will take place during those extra 45 days.

                  Rev. 11:18 shows several events that when the 7th trumpet sounds.
                  The 24 elders can't sit any longer/ it is time to judge the dead {see 2 Timothy 4:1}.
                  {Luke 14:14}
                  time to reward His servants
                  Rev. {3:23} "...all the churches shall know...I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
                  V25
                  "...hold fast till I come."
                  salvation = when Jesus Christ appears
                  Hebrews 9:28
                  Rev. 12:1-12
                  Rev. 7 9-11
                  Rev. 19:1
                  http://prophecyinsights.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The word we use to interpret the event we call the rapture is harpazo.

                    From Strong's:
                    726. harpazo, har-pad'-zo; from a der. of G138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

                    It is found 18 times in 13 verses in the NT:

                    Matthew 11:12
                    Matthew 13:19
                    John 6:15
                    John 10:12
                    John 10:28
                    John 10:29
                    Acts 8:39
                    Acts 23:10
                    2 Corinthians 12:2
                    2 Corinthians 12:4
                    Jude 1:23
                    Revelation 12:5

                    But this is the one we want to understand:

                    (1 Th 4:16-18) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

                    We have 3 examples for what this catching away in 1 Thes 4:17 may be like from Phillip, Paul and John who experienced it:

                    (Acts 8:39-40) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

                    (2 Cor 12:2-4) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. {3} And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth {4} How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

                    (Rev 4:1-2) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. {2} And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

                    In each case, this catching away did not involve leaving the earth permanently, though Phillip was literally moved to another location. Paul seems to think his catching up to the heavenly vision he was given may have been an OOBE or NDE experience, but he is not sure. What does seem clear though is they were brought into the heavenly realm to see things not otherwise visible in the earth.

                    1 Thes seems to be a similar experience the living saints will undergo when the dead are raised in that heavenly realm where we would not see such things otherwise. Is the language not similar to these others who were caught up to a vision, employing OT symbology for things concerning the spiritual realm?

                    If we have been born again then we know the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us and that we will be with Him always. But there was a time before the old covenant age ended that the dead saints had yet to receive this promise which we have. And it seems that the security and knowledge that the promise of the spiritual kingdom had indeed come was not to be manifested until the old temple was no longer standing.

                    (Heb 9:8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

                    We know the veil was torn at the cross and that Jesus entered into heaven, but what was not known was whether the way into heaven had been made available to the OT saints or whether the firstfruits from the NT who had died before the temple came down had received their hope yet.

                    Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus were trying to say that the resurrection had already ocurred and Paul rebuked them (1 Tim 1:20; 2 Tim 2:17). How could they have deceived anybody with this news unless such a thing were to be an unseen spirtual event rather than a physically visible one? What they failed to consider was the prophecy which had not yet been fulfilled in that day when the temple was still standing. The sign of which when that was about to be accomplished, was the armies surrounding Jerusalem.
                    Robin

                    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                    Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Correct me if Im wrong... but... isnt the reign of the antichrist 7 years, and the first half of it is peace and prosperity and the last half (shortened by God) of terror and turmoil?

                      It seems to my simple mind that the trib itself is not 7 years long at all! But I am probably just confused-often am!
                      Dragonfighter1
                      Vivo est Ministro

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dragonfighter1 View Post
                        Correct me if Im wrong... but... isnt the reign of the antichrist 7 years, and the first half of it is peace and prosperity and the last half (shortened by God) of terror and turmoil?
                        That is a commonly held misconception that has no basis in Scripture.
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I use this as my barometer (2nd to the word of God of course). Why would we escape trials and tribulation and a gruesome death when Jesus went through much more than we ever could??
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joe King View Post
                            I use this as my barometer (2nd to the word of God of course). Why would we escape trials and tribulation and a gruesome death when Jesus went through much more than we ever could??
                            These things can't be escaped in this world, but we have hope, peace with God, His protection and a glorious inheritance; where the world has none of these things:

                            (John 16:33) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

                            (John 17:15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

                            (John 17:24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

                            It is not that there is nothing fearsome to face in this world, the difference is that we can face those things with faith that the Lord will bring us thru them unscathed - even death - because He has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us and will be with us always (Heb 13:5; Mat 28:20).
                            Robin

                            Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                            And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                            Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                            Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                              That is a commonly held misconception that has no basis in Scripture.

                              What is? My question or my confusion? Is the trib 3.5 yrs approx, or 7 yrs??
                              Dragonfighter1
                              Vivo est Ministro

                              Comment

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