Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

wrath vs tribulation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • wrath vs tribulation

    This subject came up and began to be debated in the "Foxes Book of Martyrs thread" and the person who started that thread respectfully asked that we debate the issue in a separate thread.

    1 Tribulation

    "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world
    you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33)


    "... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that
    through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act 14:22)

    2 Wrath

    "Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9)

    "He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but
    the wrath of God abides upon him.
    (Joh 3:36)

    The New Testament does not refer to the period during which
    God's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" or "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation"

    Check it out for yourselves:

    Greek: "megas thlipsis" (
    great tribulation):

    In Rev.2: 22, the Lord Jesus warns THE CHRISTIANS at Thyatira that unless they repent of following the doctrines of the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself will throw them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works (Rev.2: 18-23).

    Rev.7: 14 identifies the multitude of saints who had come out from “the great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    In Mat.24: 21-22 the Lord states that the days of the final and greatest period of “great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) will be shortened FOR THE ELECT’S sake – and in Mat.24: 29-31, He clearly states that the gathering of His elect at the time of His return will occur immediately after the great tribulation.

    The tribulation experienced by the saints:


    (Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27) etc, etc, etc.


    The wrath of God being poured out upon the world:


    Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5 (translated into English in some Bibles as "vengeance"); Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15; Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.

    The only two New Testament verses where the Greek word thlipsis ("tribulation") is in the context of what is to be experienced by the world are the following two verses:


    1. “Tribulation (thlipsis)and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Rom.2: 9).
    2. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2Thes.1: 6-7).


    Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".


    The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.



    It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period"


    ananias
    Last edited by ananias; Sep 28th 2008, 08:24 PM. Reason: parts were not legible - too small
    "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

    And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

    Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
    (Mat.23: 8-10)

    AND

    "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

    By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
    (Joh.13: 34-35)

  • #2
    Originally posted by ananias View Post
    This subject came up and began to be debated in the "Foxes Book of Martyrs thread" and the person who started that thread respectfully asked that we debate the issue in a separate thread.

    1 Tribulation

    "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33)


    "... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act 14:22)

    2 Wrath

    "Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Rom 5:9)

    "He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.
    (Joh 3:36)

    The New Testament does not refer to the period during whichGod's wrath will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation" or "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation"
    But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.

    Check it out for yourselves:

    Greek: "megas thlipsis" (great tribulation):

    In Rev.2: 22, the Lord Jesus warns THE CHRISTIANS at Thyatira that unless they repent of following the doctrines of the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself will throw them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works (Rev.2: 18-23).

    Rev.7: 14 identifies the multitude of saints who had come out from “the great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    In Mat.24: 21-22 the Lord states that the days of the final and greatest period of “great tribulation” (megas thlipsis) will be shortened FOR THE ELECT’S sake – and in Mat.24: 29-31, He clearly states that the gathering of His elect at the time of His return will occur immediately after the great tribulation.
    This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.

    The tribulation experienced by the saints
    :


    (Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27) etc, etc, etc.


    The wrath of God being poured out upon the world:


    Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5 (translated into English in some Bibles as "vengeance"); Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15;Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.

    The only two New Testament verses where the Greek word thlipsis ("tribulation") is in the context of what is to be experienced by the world are the following two verses:
    1. “Tribulation (thlipsis)and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Rom.2: 9).
    2. “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2Thes.1: 6-7).


    Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".


    The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is an invention of a certain sector of the Christian church. There is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.
    What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?

    It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period" - fullstop.
    What does “fullstop” mean?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
      But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.

      This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.

      What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?

      What does “fullstop” mean?
      I dunno, looking up. I'll take the word "fullstop" out, which is supposed to mean that although the wrath will God will be poured out upon the world (just as it is written that His wrath will be poured out upon the world), the New Testament doesn't refer to this period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the seven year tribulation". I guess "fullstop" might sound like debate about that statement is closed, so I'll go take the word out right now.

      Many Christians here will argue that Danilel's 70th week was already fulfilled at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus, and that Jesus was crucified in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. I think they're right - but I also think that time moves in cycles, history moves in time and prophecy is linked to history.

      God bless,

      ananias
      "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

      And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

      Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
      (Mat.23: 8-10)

      AND

      "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

      By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
      (Joh.13: 34-35)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
        But these verses about wrath also do not refer to the period which God’s wrath will be poured out upon the world. John 3 verifies that the wrath of God continues to abide upon those who do not believe the Son. That wrath which abides will continue after the unbeliever dies.

        This refers to a specific period of tribulation. All believers experience general tribulation. Even John wrote that he was experiencing “the tribulation” with them (Rev. 1:9) but certainly they were not experiencing the tribulation (great or otherwise) of Daniel’s 70th week.

        What about Dan. 9? The 70th week? That was already fulfilled?

        What does “fullstop” mean?
        I agree with you that Mat.24: 21-22 and Rev.7: 14 refer to a specific period of tribulation - namely, the coming period of great tribulation of the saints at the end of this age immediately before the return of Christ and the wrath of God begins to be poured out upon the world.

        Yes, it's true there was a period of great tribulation at the beginning of the church age and for the first over 200 years of the church age and at many other times - such as the time of the Reformation. But time moves in cycles and history moves in time and prophecy moves with history.

        "immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mat 24:29-31)

        IMO to read the above verses in any other way except as referring to the end of this age and the tribulation of the saints, is wishful thinking.

        BUT everyone is welcome to disagree - because what will be will be, regardless of my opinion, interpretation or understanding or of anyone else's opnion, interpretation or understanding.

        ananias
        "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

        And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

        Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
        (Mat.23: 8-10)

        AND

        "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

        By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
        (Joh.13: 34-35)

        Comment


        • #5
          Honestly, in my opinion, the connecting of the Great Tribulation and the Seventieth week in Daniel is overrated. Here's why I say this.

          1. Daniel 9:24-27 was concerning Israel, and the great city Jerusalem. The seventty decreed weeks were determined not for all mankind, but for Israel. Yes, there are connections, like the fact that the middle of the seventieth can be confirmed as the beginning of the Great Tribulation, but other than that, the goals of the seventy weeks are outlined in verse 24.

          2. Israel, when the covenant is broken in the middle of the seventieth wek, will have 1260 days to repent of their forefather's sins, and accept the grace and peace that comes with the acknowledgement that He, Lord Jesus, is their Savior and Lord. After the abomination that causes desolation, Israel will temporarily be removed from the world scene, and the embodiment of Israel, or as Revelation 12:17 says, the children of Israel will take center stage, and the Evil one and His representatives will attempt to wipe us out.

          3. While Israel will be in hiding in the wilderness, the Lord will finish his work with Israel, fulfilling with the remnant the promises that He gave Daniel in verse 24, preparing them for the Return of our Glorious Lord and Savior.

          My point? The seventieth week has very little to do with our plight. It is only a point in which we can say, the Great Tribulation is possibly represented there.

          It is my opinion that the misuse of the seventieth week is what led to the whole "tribulation versus wrath" thing in the first place, because dispensationalists have determined that the seventieth week is the week of tribulation, which no where in the Bible is that even mentioned. The seventieth week was not determined for the church, for Lord Jesus never mentioned anything about there being a week of years of suffering. Besides, the first portion of the seventieth week is suppose to be a week of peace, as the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem makes a deal with Israel and many peoples. The first half of that week is suppose to be peaceful, many nations honoring the covenant that the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem enacted. This is not a period of tribulation.

          Jesus said that when you see the abomination that causes desolation, as spoken by Daniel the prophet, then, and only then, can we say that any sort of "tribulation" is upon us. This is the only connection between us, the saints, and the "seventieth week", which deals primarily with Israel.

          Ananias, when people mention the seventieth week, they are referring to Daniel 9:24-27. That s where you can see what I am talking about. It is also the place where you can begin your research into the seventieth week topic. I hope this helps you a little.
          Last edited by third hero; Sep 28th 2008, 07:52 PM. Reason: corecting spelling errors

          Comment


          • #6
            The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is an invention of a certain sector of the Christian church. There is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.
            ananias
            Just a reminder here folks, there is a huge difference in believing scripture teaches a certain thing with a passage and "invention".

            Everyone - - remember to give others views/understandings the same respect you would like your own views/understandings to have.


            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
              Just a reminder here folks, there is a huge difference in believing scripture teaches a certain thing with a passage and "invention".

              Everyone - - remember to give others views/understandings the same respect you would like your own views/understandings to have.
              true. will correct it

              ananias
              "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

              And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

              Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
              (Mat.23: 8-10)

              AND

              "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

              By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
              (Joh.13: 34-35)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by third hero View Post
                Honestly, in my opinion, the connecting of the Great Tribulation and the Seventieth week in Daniel is overrated. Here's why I say this.

                It is my opinion that the misuse of the seventieth week is what led to the whole "tribulation versus wrath" thing in the first place, because dispensationalists have determined that the seventieth week is the week of tribulation, which no where in the Bible is that even mentioned. The seventieth week was not determined for the church, for Lord Jesus never mentioned anything about there being a week of years of suffering. Besides, the first portion of the seventieth week is suppose to be a week of peace, as the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem makes a deal with Israel and many peoples. The first half of that week is suppose to be peaceful, many nations honoring the covenant that the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem enacted. This is not a period of tribulation.

                Jesus said that when you see the abomination that causes desolation, as spoken by Daniel the prophet, then, and only then, can we say that any sort of "tribulation" is upon us. This is the only connection between us, the saints, and the "seventieth week", which deals primarily with Israel.

                Ananias, when people mention the seventieth week, they are referring to Daniel 9:24-27. That s where you can see what I am talking about. It is also the place where you can begin your research into the seventieth week topic. I hope this helps you a little.
                Thanks, third hero. I am familiar with the passage. I've just never made up my mind about Dan.9: 27 - the 7th week. I have an idea (I could be wrong) that it's one of those prophecies that gets to be fulfilled around the time of both the first and second coming of the Messiah.

                I agree 100% with the parts of your statement above that I changed to bold/underlined, and to red letters. As to a covenant being made with Israel near the time of the Lord's return, I've never been able to make up my mind either way - I've mused, "I guess the fulfillment of Dan.9: 27 is one of those prophecies that will only be able to be accurately assessed with hindsight after the end of this age"

                "The abomination of desolation" standing in "the holy place" could just as well refer to a "great" Christian miracle-working leader setting himself up in the church - there's a distinction made in the Greek N.T between "naos" (the holy place) and "hieron" (the temple building in Jerusalem and its outer courts).

                Naos is used only in reference to (a) the holy place of the Jerusalem temple, and (b) the body of Christ, and ( c ) our bodies as well as the church as the "nass" - the body of Christ.

                But the last time "naos" is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is at the time of the crucifixion of the Lord. After that, "naos" is only used in reference to our bodies and the church as the naos (temple) of God, and "hieron" is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem.

                "... who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple ("naos") of God, setting himself forth, that he is God." (2Th 2:4).

                This doesn't necessarily preclude the antichrist also building himself a physical temple in Jerusalem.

                Therefore I've decided to wait and see what "the holy place" is referring to in the words "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)..." (Mat 24:15)

                ananias
                "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

                And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

                Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
                (Mat.23: 8-10)

                AND

                "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

                By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
                (Joh.13: 34-35)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ananias View Post


                  The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.

                  Good summary.

                  The idea that God takes the church, and then tortures people in a 7 year tribulation is not well supported. It came about in the early 1900’s with the dispensational hypothesis. This takes Daniel’s 70 consecutive weeks, and inserts an undetermined period of time – more than 2000 years – before the last week (the 7 year tribulation). It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the Messiah would bring a new covenant. It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the sacrifices and offerings in the temple would cease with Jesus.

                  Let me illustrate. The link below contains links to many Bible commentaries written over hundreds of years. Many of these include the Old Testament. Look at each of these: Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, etc. and they all conclude Daniel 9:27 already occurred. It is not until 1917 with the Scofield Reference Notes, that we see the prophecy turned upside down and suddenly Daniel 9:27 is about future events. Scofield was heavily influenced by Darby and the Dispensational hypothesis.

                  http://www.studylight.org/com/

                  Daniel's 70 weeks is a powerful and beautiful example of prophesy, literally ripped apart by the dispensationalists. It fits so perfectly as 70 consecutive weeks of years that there is no need for this extraordinary interpretation.
                  In Christ,

                  -- Rev

                  “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Revolvr View Post
                    Good summary.

                    The idea that God takes the church, and then tortures people in a 7 year tribulation is not well supported. It came about in the early 1900’s with the dispensational hypothesis. This takes Daniel’s 70 consecutive weeks, and inserts an undetermined period of time – more than 2000 years – before the last week (the 7 year tribulation). It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the Messiah would bring a new covenant. It requires we believe God forgot to tell Daniel that the sacrifices and offerings in the temple would cease with Jesus.

                    Let me illustrate. The link below contains links to many Bible commentaries written over hundreds of years. Many of these include the Old Testament. Look at each of these: Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, John Wesley, etc. and they all conclude Daniel 9:27 already occurred. It is not until 1917 with the Scofield Reference Notes, that we see the prophecy turned upside down and suddenly Daniel 9:27 is about future events. Scofield was heavily influenced by Darby and the Dispensational hypothesis.

                    http://www.studylight.org/com/

                    Daniel's 70 weeks is a powerful and beautiful example of prophesy, literally ripped apart by the dispensationalists. It fits so perfectly as 70 consecutive weeks of years that there is no need for this extraordinary interpretation.
                    True. But I also think that we mustn't overlook the following verses which all speak of three and a half years:

                    "... And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months." (Rev 13:5)

                    "... And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11:3)

                    "... And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12:6-7)

                    All we need is to link (whether correctly or incorrectly) the above verses with 2Thes.2: 4, Mat.24: 15 and Dan.9: 27, and we wind up with the "seven-year tribulation" theory - except that the New Testament doesn't call the wrath of God "tribulation"!

                    That's why I said that it's quite possible that time moves in cycles, history takes place in time, and prophecy is linked to history.

                    At least some prophecies have more than one fulfillment in time. I firmly believe that, even though I know that many would disagree with me and think it's a load of nonsense but respectfully have not said so.

                    I think that Dan.9: 27 is a prophecy whose fulfillment/s we will only be able to fathom with full assurance after the end of this age.

                    ananias
                    "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

                    And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

                    Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
                    (Mat.23: 8-10)

                    AND

                    "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

                    By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
                    (Joh.13: 34-35)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ananias View Post
                      True. But I also think that we mustn't overlook the following verses which all speak of three and a half years:
                      Yes indeed, and that is how to approach it. You bring up 4 periods of 3.5 years each - 14 years. What is not clear to me though is what of these durations may overlap each other.

                      I also don't think there will be a clear event that marks the start of the tribulations. Not everyone will feel the tribulations at the same time. It's not as if there is no tribulation, and then instantly there is tribulation. It expands across the globe over time. Even now there are Christians who no doubt could see themselves in these times - where they cannot live safely, cannot buy, sell, get jobs, etc.

                      The other thing to consider is that not all events in Revelation represent God's wrath. Many people see God's wrath beginning at the 7th seal. Events prior to this, such as the arrival of the two beasts, the decision to accept or not, the mark of the beast - as happening prior to God's wrath.

                      My personal view is the build-up to God's wrath has begun, and things keep getting worse for some indeterminate period of time. Like birth pains, these events will become stronger and more frequent. Then we will begin to clearly see the events of Revelation, the humble moderators will lift their restrictions on naming the AC and setting dates , and shortly thereafter, His Wrath will begin. I suspect the Wrath part will be much less than 7 years.

                      I don't think anyone could put together a detailed timeline of exactly what happens. We are given enough to know it when we see it but not enough to predict and set dates. We've been given enough to watch, prepare, and recognize false teachings, while we do the important stuff God wants: to live our lives as ambassadors to Christ.
                      In Christ,

                      -- Rev

                      “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ananias View Post

                        The idea of a "seven-year tribulation period" is the understanding/interpretation of one sector of the Christian church. IMO there is no such thing. The final seven years of the age is just that and only that - the final seven years of the age.

                        It may be that the antichrist will reign on the earth for the final three and a half years - but nevertheless the New Testament does not refer to the final seven years of the age as "the tribulation period"

                        I'd like to say technically you are correct about the term tribulation. But I think where you may not be correct is that the term is an idiomatic expression or colloquialism that has been adopted and accepted as a term for Daniel's 70th week. With that being said when someone mentions "the tribulation" most people know exactly what is being spoken of.
                        Acts 17:11

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ananias View Post
                          Understand that the New Testament does not refer to the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world as "the tribulation period" or "the great tribulation".
                          Luke 21 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

                          Matthew 24 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

                          Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel accounts of the same prophecies. Whereas Luke 21 calls the time period of the attack on Judea a "great distress" and "wrath", Matthew 24 calls the time period "great tribulation."
                          To This Day

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by markedward View Post
                            Luke 21 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

                            Matthew 24 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

                            Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel accounts of the same prophecies. Whereas Luke 21 calls the time period of the attack on Judea a "great distress" and "wrath", Matthew 24 calls the time period "great tribulation."
                            So according to you, these two statements are the same:

                            And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? Luke 21:7

                            And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? -Matthew 24:3

                            I mean, the Lord said the same thing in both accounts right?

                            And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. -Matthew 24:1-2

                            And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. -Luke 21:5-6

                            Jesus, in both accounts, state that the temple is going to be destroyed. Now look again at Luke 21:7.

                            And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?

                            What are the "these things in which the people are asking Lord Jesus about? Is it not the destruction of the temple? According to Luke, they never even mention anything concerning the "end of the age", and yet, Luke wrote in some of the early signs of the end of the age while explaining the means in which the temple will be destroyed. There are several things that were not mentioned.

                            1. The abomination that causes desolation
                            2. Great Distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world and never to be equalled again


                            In other words, the end of the age was NOT the topic of Luke 21. Matthew makes no bones as to what the topic of his version would be, and that would be the End Times signs, hence his addition of the phrase, "and the end of the age". Ask any English composition teacher what the topic of Luke 21 is and you get the same thing as what I am saying. The wording of these passages makes all the difference in the world.

                            For those wanting to show congruency of the Gospels by saying that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are synonymous are not english professors. By the wording of each version, we see that Luke was writing about the signs surrounding the destruction of the temple while Matthew went straight for the end times signs.

                            Seriously, you do not find wordings in Matthew's version that you find in Luke's version. Phrases like "but before all these" are not found in Matthew's version. Luke talks about he desolation of Jerusalem, and not the abomination that causes desolation. Also, the Daniel reference is not in the Luke version because the people that told Luke of the Olivet discourse were more worried about their religious city than they were on the end times. To them, the destruction of Jerusalem was the "end of the world".

                            Is it rather funny that in Luke's version, Jerusalem is taken by Gentiles AFTER it's desolation happens? In Matthew's version, Jesus returns "immediately after the distress of those days" whereas Luke's version has a period of time where their religious capital would be "trampled" on by the Gentiles until another age is complete. According to Luke's version, something called the "Age of the Gentiles" had to be fulfilled before Christ would return, which is after the desolation of Jerusalem. we can clearly see that through history, the age of the Gentiles lasted a really long time, about 1900 years.

                            I mean, if you want ot continue to say that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are talking about the same events, then go right on ahead. However, several grammar changes and detail changes have to take place in order to make that statement a true one.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hey all,


                              I’m not saying that the Church (Body of Christ) will not experience tribulation. That much we can see to be very true. But it seems clear that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Mat. 24:21 refers to Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. 30). Although Jer. doesn’t tell us this lasts 7 years, we know there are 7 years left for Daniel’s people according to Dan. 9. Reading Jer. 30 tells us the purpose of this period of time. One purpose is to chasten Israel (vs. 11) in order to purify her to receive her coming King, and the other purpose is to destroy the nations who reject her and her coming King (vs. 11). The Lord destroys these nations in His wrath. The Church is neither Israel who needs purging nor the nations who require destruction through His wrath. The Church is already sanctified, cleansed (Eph. 5:26), holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4; 5:27; Jude 1:24; Col. 1:22).


                              Whether we call the 1st half of the 70th week, tribulation, and the 2nd half, great tribulation, the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, which means the Body of Christ will not be here for it. We can’t say that general tribulation is equal to the wrath of God, but surely we can say that the wrath of God will be a time of tribulation, great tribulation, or great distress.


                              I realize some believe that the wrath of God does not begin until the 6th seal, but I’m not convinced of that. Just because the word “wrath” is not used until the 6th seal doesn’t mean the others are not wrath. All the seal judgments originate in heaven. These seal judgments cannot even take place until Christ alone breaks the seals. Each broken seal is judgment directly from Jesus in heaven. And I can’t help but take note that the Lord STANDS up to go to the Father who is still sitting on His throne. Into whose hands does the Father hand judgment over? The Lord stands to judge and the Lord stands to plead (Isa. 3:13). Which is He about to when He stands to take the scroll? Is He about to judge as He breaks the 1st seal or is He about to allow general tribulation continue on the earth?


                              These judgments are by the hand of God… death by sword, famine, wild animals, pestilence, plague. Look at the judgments of God in Ez. 14:21…


                              "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgmentssword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"


                              The Lord God chose to call sword, famine, wild beasts and plague “My four dreadful judgments”. That's not tribulation; that is wrath.

                              In the book of Rev., I also can’t help but notice that there is such a focus on the Jews and Jerusalem again because God has got unfinished business there. The 144,000 Jews mentioned are even called the 'first fruits' in Rev 14:4 which makes sense to me if this is not the church age. Otherwise, if the church goes through this specific tribulation, why would they be called 'first fruits' unto the lamb? Daniel’s 70th week is the last 7 years in which God deals directly with the nation of Israel (like the first 69) in order to bring that nation to Himself. It is also the time He judges the God-rejecting nations.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X