Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Isn't it when verse 15 starts to come to pass, that there will then be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?
    I think it is Ezekiel who used similar phrasing when prophesying the events of the coming Babylonian armies. Each prophet was emphasizing the uniqueness of what was happening, not that nothing would ever happen "after".

    Ezekiel 5:9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again.

    Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

    The best way to describe this is hyperbole... if we take Ezekiel 5:9 at face value we get a false statement - Ezekiel 5:9 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Chaldeans... if we take the "I will do this and never again" part literally, it contradicts the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed again and the temple was destroyed again by the Romans.

    The context of Matthew 24:21 should be obvious: the previous chapter consisted of Christ proclaiming judgment against the wicked (particularly the Pharisees), this chapter opened up with Christ's prophecy that the second temple of Jerusalem would be destroyed (you know, the temple they were pointing at), followed by His disciples asking Him when that (the destruction of the second temple) would happen. Even this verse is immediately preceded by Christ's statement to flee Judea... where the second temple is. Any attempt to take this "great tribulation" and apply it to the final days of earth instead of to the time-period that the context of the prophecy demands falls flat.
    Last edited by markedward; Oct 29th 2008, 01:36 AM. Reason: [Correction; changed "exile" to "armies" in the first sentence.]
    To This Day

    Comment


    • Well,

      Well, I was just worried if other readers will be confused if it's their first time reading these concepts...cause those concepts were created during 18 century..and we don't know which one are true I am really tired to debate about these views but there got to be a Rapture and a Second Coming...
      http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/timeline/index.html
      http://www.apocalypsefoundation.co.z...4_3Rapture.htm

      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Originally posted by Dragonfighter1 View Post
      Hi Shinichi,
      I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying we shouldn't discuss this?
      Shinjitsu wa itsumo hitotsu
      2 Timothy 3:16 Jehovah Jireh Matthew 6:33

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Shinichi Kudo View Post
        Well, I was just worried if other readers will be confused if it's their first time reading these concepts...cause those concepts were created during 18 century..and we don't know which one are true I am really tired to debate about these views but there got to be a Rapture and a Second Coming...
        http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/timeline/index.html
        http://www.apocalypsefoundation.co.z...4_3Rapture.htm

        ------------------------------------------------------------
        Shinichi,
        It can be tiring, but it is important too. All readers need to understand for themselves the options and issues. The guiding hand of the Holy Spirit must be given opportunity to guide. There will be a Rapture and a Second coming but some see these as years apart and some as seconds apart. The ramifications are significant when you consider what it means to suddenly find out you were wrong (on either side).

        Df1
        Dragonfighter1
        Vivo est Ministro

        Comment


        • Okey...

          I understand...
          Shinjitsu wa itsumo hitotsu
          2 Timothy 3:16 Jehovah Jireh Matthew 6:33

          Comment


          • Hi all,
            I just spent the last week reading thru this topic, interesting. My first observation is that most on this topic are “post-trib”, which is fine with me. I do have a question for you. Most of you tend to lean toward a pre-wrath rapture (i.e. after the 7th trumpet, before the 1st bowl). In your opinion/studies, when would that happen? When during the tribulation period would the first bowl occur?
            Just so you know; I am not looking for a specific date (as no one knows this) but a general reference in terms of order. I want to understand your viewpoint.
            In Christ,
            Jerry

            Comment


            • Originally posted by graygm18 View Post
              Hi all,
              I just spent the last week reading thru this topic, interesting. My first observation is that most on this topic are “post-trib”, which is fine with me. I do have a question for you. Most of you tend to lean toward a pre-wrath rapture (i.e. after the 7th trumpet, before the 1st bowl). In your opinion/studies, when would that happen? When during the tribulation period would the first bowl occur?
              Just so you know; I am not looking for a specific date (as no one knows this) but a general reference in terms of order. I want to understand your viewpoint.
              In Christ,
              Jerry
              I personally am not pre-wrath, I believe the surviving Christians at the time of wrath will avoid most of the wrath just by virtue of circumstance, they will know to stay indoors to avoid the heat, they will not be participating in the war in Israel because most will be in jail or in hiding, they will not be at sea because they will be in hiding and not participating in jobs or trade, only those with marks get the sores, probably related to the technology of the mark.

              I believe this because the moment of rapture is repeatedly associated with the war in Israel and especially with a great earthquake, which are the at the end of the bowls of wrath (Rev 16:16+18).

              I believe there is some overlap of the seals , the trumpets, and the bowls: Something like this:

              I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL
              I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
              I------seven bowls--------DOTL

              There is no indication that the three series are consecutive , the sixth seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are all associated with the events surrounding a great earthquake.

              The Day Of The Lord involves the resurrection (traditionally rapture) followed by a great eathquake, and a finalisation of the war already taking place in Armageddon.
              Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 14th 2008, 05:44 PM. Reason: Correcting timeframes

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                I believe there is some overlap of the seals , the trumpets, and the bowls: Something like this:

                I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
                -------------------- I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
                --------------------------- I------sevenbowls--------DOTL
                Great visualization!

                In this timeline above, what does the "I" represent?

                Thanks,
                Jerry

                Comment


                • Originally posted by graygm18 View Post
                  Great visualization!

                  In this timeline above, what does the "I" represent?

                  Thanks,
                  Jerry

                  The starting point , I tried to use blanks before the "I" but it didn't work, I should have rather left justify the 3 timelines,let me try edit it again.

                  Comment


                  • try right justify

                    I------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
                    I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL ........ .
                    I------sevenbowls--------DOTL......... .

                    or set the leading dashes to color white so they are invisible...as....

                    I-------------------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
                    -------------------- I--------seven trumpet----------DOTL
                    --------------------------- I------sevenbowls--------DOTL
                    Dragonfighter1
                    Vivo est Ministro

                    Comment


                    • Thanks, that worked!

                      Comment


                      • DurbanDude,

                        So if "I" represents the begining of the Tribulation Period, do you mean to say this...

                        I-------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
                        I-------------------seven trumpet----------DOTL
                        I------------------------sevenbowls--------DOTL

                        The period begins. Sometime later, the seals are opened. Sometime before the 6th seal (doesn't have to be the 6th seal), the trumpets begin. Sometime before the trumpets end, the bowls are poured out. Then the DOTL (Rapture at this point) and finally the 7th seal.

                        Did I summarize that correctly?

                        If so, what about others on this board that currently define themselves as Post-Trib? Do you also define it this way or are you more incline to Pre-Wrath? Do others have a different timeline they ascribe too?

                        I have to admit, I have never truly studied this viewpoint. I don't want to assume any definitions on the topic without input. I have been Pre-Trib for a longtime. However, you should always review beliefs and biases to ensure they line up with Scripture. By studying other viewpoints one will either strengthen their previous belief or come to understand and believe another.

                        I look forward to chatting with you all.

                        In Christ,
                        Jerry

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by graygm18 View Post
                          DurbanDude,

                          So if "I" represents the begining of the Tribulation Period, do you mean to say this...

                          I-------------six seals--------------------DOTL 7th seal
                          I-------------------seven trumpet----------DOTL
                          I------------------------sevenbowls--------DOTL

                          The period begins. Sometime later, the seals are opened. Sometime before the 6th seal (doesn't have to be the 6th seal), the trumpets begin. Sometime before the trumpets end, the bowls are poured out. Then the DOTL (Rapture at this point) and finally the 7th seal.

                          Did I summarize that correctly?
                          Hi, I just meant that "I" is the beginning of each series, not the beginning of the tribulation. But with your adjusted diagram you did summarise this correctly. I wouldn't know where to place the beginning of the tribulation , I would guess sometime before the first trumpet, during the seals.

                          Comment


                          • DurbanDude,

                            That's what I figured. I was hoping to get that thought through by using the phrase "Sometime Later". My bad for making it sound any other way.

                            In Christ,
                            Jerry

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X