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Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

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  • Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

    First things first: what led me to start this thread.

    Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

    Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

    Rev 4:1...The Rapture of the Church (Phase I of CHRIST’S 2nd Coming)
    I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of

    After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
    heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
    said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

    depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

    For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

    (Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

    Christ's chronology
    Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

    Matthew 10
    In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

    Matthew 13
    In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

    Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

    So...

    Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
    Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
    Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
    Enemy = the devil (Satan)

    Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

    "Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

    According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

    Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
    Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:
    1. False christs, wars and rumors of wars
    2. Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
    3. Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
    4. Then persecution of the followers of Christ
    5. Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
    6. The gospel preached to all
    7. Then the end will come
    8. Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
    9. The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
    10. At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
    11. After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
    12. At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

    First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

    Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

    The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



    Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

    Paul's chronology
    Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

    John's chronology
    John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

    Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

    Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

    Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

    Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

    Summary
    So let's take all of the above together:

    According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

    According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

    According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

    Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".
    Last edited by markedward; Oct 2nd 2008, 07:28 AM. Reason: [A few changes and corrections.]
    To This Day

  • #2
    Today is another day closer, whatever we believe about the rapture.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dworthington View Post
      Today is another day closer, whatever we believe about the rapture.
      This doesn't exactly help a person come to a better understanding of the rapture, though. Personally, I don't find this very contributable to a discussion.

      Many Christians believe they'll be whisked away to safety before the hard stuff hits. What will they do if they believe that and when stuff actually happens, "Uh-oh, we're still here... But God promised we'd be taken out of the world before this stuff was going on!" Would it shake their faith? Would some feel like they were abandoned? Hence why I believe Christians should recognize that the Bible teaches a "post-tribulation" rapture and not a "pre-tribulation" rapture.

      Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Markedward:

        I agree with you. I also was pretrib. I started my own indepth study for the same reasons you did, in that the pretrib view requires one to "read in" things that are not directly stated in the scriptures.

        I also believe that it IS vitally important to not have the attitude, " it dosen't matter what you believe about rapture timing." Why? Because Jesus gave us all of these details of the last days for the protection of our faith and our souls, so that we would be mentally, emotionally and spiritually prepared to endure the most terrible times His followers will ever face.
        Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
        ********************************************
        MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by markedward View Post
          What will they do if they believe that and when stuff actually happens, "Uh-oh, we're still here... But God promised we'd be taken out of the world before this stuff was going on!" Would it shake their faith? Would some feel like they were abandoned? Hence why I believe Christians should recognize that the Bible teaches a "post-tribulation" rapture and not a "pre-tribulation" rapture.

          Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.
          Those familiar with the post-trib view will adjust their position accordingly. I'm more concerned about those who only know the pre-trib view. Let's be honest, a certain amount of apostasy is bound to occur.

          P. S. I'm going to edit the private message that I sent you earlier and post it here later. You're right, it is worth others reading.

          Comment


          • #6
            My only question with your research, did you pray to God for the answer? Our knowledge and wisdom is only given by Him and that includes our understanding of the bible and its words.

            People post about how they have researched it themselves. I only care about the person who has prayed and prayed for understanding from God.

            My humble opinion.

            Comment


            • #7
              I still believe the Word teaches a Pre-trib rapture of church. The biggest reason I believe many do not is they really do not realize how much persecution the Christians will have to endure before the Rapture. I believe we will see persecution to equal or exceed that of the apostles, early church persecution, & present day persecution in the God hating countries of world right now.
              The Tribulation then will be the wrath of God that has never been seen in the history of the world & cannot be imagined by the mind of men.
              Flood, Babel, Sodom & G, Babalonian Captivity, all a walk in the park compared to Trib wrath.

              Pre-Trib belief does not preclude or even minimize Christian persecution prior to the Rapture.

              My .02cents & some think it worth half that.
              LT

              Comment


              • #8
                Pre-Trib belief does not preclude or even minimize Christian persecution prior to the Rapture.
                That's true. When I leaned toward pre-trib, I felt that the Rapture CAUSED the Tribulation. The complete absence of anyone saved on the planet left Man to their own ways, causing all manner of suffering.

                While that all made perfect sense, in my mind, I just never found any Scriptural basis for it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There is no promise find anywhere in Bible saying that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. In John 16:33 tells us that we must suffer tribulation, but we should be cheer because Christ overcame them at calvary. Also, Paul said that we must go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

                  These tribulations will not be finish till immediately after the days of tribulation - Matt. 24:29. Christ shall come right after tribulation.

                  You have to find prove clear verse anywhere in Bible that, it saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation. If you know the clear verse, then please prove it to us.

                  In Christ
                  Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by longtooth View Post
                    The Tribulation then will be the wrath of God that has never been seen in the history of the world & cannot be imagined by
                    the mind of men.


                    I agree with you. The wrath of God will be like that. But what does the trib and the wrath of God have to do with one another? The trib is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of satan. Keep in mind, during the trib many believers are going to be persecuted and killed. Does this sound like the wrath of God? No it doesn't. But it sure sounds like the wrath of satan, wouldn't you agree?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What year do you believe that Paul wrote his writings? What year do you believe that John wrote revelations?
                      If my understanding is correct Paul wrote his writings sometime in the 60 AD
                      Where John was given his revelation in 90AD. So how would Paul know about the last trumpet?
                      Just trying to figure this all out. Thanks for your response in advance.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I guess I am confused...
                        It seems to say in Rev 11:18 that the time has come to judge the dead and reward the prophets and saints before the Ark of the Covenant. We are Christ believers and we would stand before Christ so he can intercede. The Ark would be important to the OT believers and non believers(This was Gods presence)
                        Does any one else understand this verse the way I see it. It doesn't seem that it is time for the NT believers to be judged and rewarded. Otherwise why is it not mentioned?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by markedward View Post
                          This doesn't exactly help a person come to a better understanding of the rapture, though. Personally, I don't find this very contributable to a discussion...Besides, if the "pre-tribulation" view is wrong (which I obviously believe it is), it should be shown why it is wrong.
                          Maybe what dworthington saw is the same thing I saw when reading your OP. Arguments against another position are not the same as arguments for yours. If I believe something, I must continually justify that belief if I still don't have a peace about it. If I am at peace about it, I don't have the need to convert others to that position or to keep justifying it to myself.

                          You said you are an "ex-pre-tribber". If you find it wrong, then why are you still even talking about it? If it's wrong, it's wrong, and leave it at that. Otherwise the OP appears to be baiting pre-tribbers into the thread. And that wouldn't be discussing, it would be debating.

                          Start a thread on why you believe post-trib is right.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by markedward View Post
                            First things first: what led me to start this thread.

                            Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

                            Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

                            I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of

                            After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
                            heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
                            said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."


                            depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

                            For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

                            (Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

                            Christ's chronology
                            Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

                            Matthew 10
                            In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

                            Matthew 13
                            In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

                            Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

                            So...

                            Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
                            Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
                            Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
                            Enemy = the devil (Satan)

                            Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

                            "Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

                            According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

                            Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
                            Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:

                            1. False christs, wars and rumors of wars
                            2. Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
                            3. Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
                            4. Then persecution of the followers of Christ
                            5. Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
                            6. The gospel preached to all
                            7. Then the end will come
                            8. Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
                            9. The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
                            10. At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
                            11. After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
                            12. At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels
                            First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

                            Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

                            The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



                            Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

                            Paul's chronology
                            Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

                            1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

                            At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

                            John's chronology
                            John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

                            Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

                            Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

                            Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

                            Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

                            Summary
                            So let's take all of the above together:

                            According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

                            According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

                            According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

                            Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".
                            Matt. 24:40 goes along with the wheat and tares parable.
                            Those taken are taken into Judgement just as those taken in the flood perished in judgement.

                            Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

                            Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                            Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

                            Matthew 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

                            Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


                            Judgement always comes before peace.
                            In Christ,
                            Dave


                            Revelations 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              convert me PLEASE

                              I'm post trib. and trying/wanting to be converted to "pre" because of all the trouble it causes me among my Baptist friends. I have begged to be converted but they never seem to be able to sit down and ACTUALLY explain how they come up with it. If you challenge anything they say (in my experience anyway) they get defensive and we end up running all over the place with pointless philosophical arguements).

                              My biggest issue is this: If the dead in Christ are raised first.(Please challenge that if I am wrong), then how do you get around Rev 20:5. There the scripture says that the Devil starts his 1000 yr imprisonment and the saint are resurected in the FIRST resurrection. (presumable immediately after that we who are live are raptured too-since we cant go before them). There cant have been a rapture before then or there would have been a resurrection before then too! and if that was the case then this Rev 20:5 shouldnt be calling it the FIRST resurrection.

                              I did have one witty man say that it wasnt the first resurrection because Christs was the first and several prophets were resurrected with him on that special easter day! But I pointed out that a small local resurrection and a global "all saints included" resurrection surely shouldnt be referred to as the first or the "pre-first" resurrection LOL!

                              Please if you are pre trib (and I am not trying to start a fight at all, please show me how to believe as you do.
                              I am serious. But...Scripture required.
                              Dragonfighter1
                              Vivo est Ministro

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