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It seems this would support the amil view . . .

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  • It seems this would support the amil view . . .

    In 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 it talks about the order of the resurrection. It states that Jesus Christ is the first fruits and then those at his second coming will be resurrected. It states then that the end is to come where He hands the Kingdom over to the Father, and He puts an end to all rule and authority and power. Then in verses 25 and 26 it states that He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet, and the last enemy that must be destroyed is death. Paul later goes on to describe when death will be defeated when he tells them the "great mystery".

    1 Corinthians 15:51
    Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    So, what we have here is the statement that death is the final thing that is defeated, and it is defeated when we are all resurrected (or changed in a twinkling of an eye if you are one of those who are alive and remain) in an incorruptible body that has put on immortality. What it is also saying is that Jesus Christ's reign will carry through until death has been defeated. Therefore, the end of Jesus Christ's reign and the defeat of death is happening at the same time at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ when we are all resurrected with glorified bodies. That would mean that Revelation chapter 20 is happening right now, and His reign will continue until His return when He finally puts that last enemy (death) under His feet. Once death is defeated, Jesus Christ's reign is over and the Kingdom is ready to hand back over to the Father.

    Thoughts?
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  • #2
    I agree.

    That is the most natural reading of I Cor 15's account.
    It also harmonizes well with Isaiah 24-25's similar account of the
    2nd Coming and of the time of the resurrection "when death is swallowed up in victory" that Paul quotes from.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
      In 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 it talks about the order of the resurrection. It states that Jesus Christ is the first fruits and then those at his second coming will be resurrected. It states then that the end is to come where He hands the Kingdom over to the Father, and He puts an end to all rule and authority and power. Then in verses 25 and 26 it states that He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet, and the last enemy that must be destroyed is death. Paul later goes on to describe when death will be defeated when he tells them the "great mystery".

      So, what we have here is the statement that death is the final thing that is defeated, and it is defeated when we are all resurrected (or changed in a twinkling of an eye if you are one of those who are alive and remain) in an incorruptible body that has put on immortality. What it is also saying is that Jesus Christ's reign will carry through until death has been defeated. Therefore, the end of Jesus Christ's reign and the defeat of death is happening at the same time at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ when we are all resurrected with glorified bodies. That would mean that Revelation chapter 20 is happening right now, and His reign will continue until His return when He finally puts that last enemy (death) under His feet. Once death is defeated, Jesus Christ's reign is over and the Kingdom is ready to hand back over to the Father.

      Thoughts?
      I would agree. This would seem to suggest that the new earth will be free of corruption. In fact this is backed up by I Corinthians 15:50, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is clearly man’s final deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. It would seem to indicate “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

      I feel Romans 8:19-23 supports that, saying,For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

      This would also appear to suggest that death and all the result of the fall is removed when we are glorified ("the redemption of our body”).

      How might this be done?

      I feel the answer is in 2 Peter 3:10-13, it says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

      The whole import of this narrative is the unexpected and climactic nature of the Lord’s Coming. This is a truth that is presented several times in the New Testament – most notably by Christ Himself.

      Paul

      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

      WPM

      Comment


      • #4
        I do have a question, though. When would be the time when Satan is released for one last round of deceit? Is that what is being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 where He who is restraining the son of perdition will remove His restraint?

        It seems to me that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of there are those who refuse to accept the truth. It seems it's not talking about one person but rather a group of people. It seems Paul indicates as much when he states that "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work". It says that this "man of lawlessness" will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, and if you think about it, that is what mankind is doing right now. It says that he will sit as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Well, the temple in the New Testament is not an actual physical temple sitting in Jerusalem right now. Christians are called the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 6:19. So, it would seem to me that the man of lawlessness will reject God's presence in his temple, and try to exalt himself above all that is God.

        So, it would seem, basing my opinion off this view, that the "man of lawlessness" or "son of perdition" is mankind in a condition of apostasy.

        Am I off my rocker here?
        "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

        -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
          I do have a question, though. When would be the time when Satan is released for one last round of deceit? Is that what is being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 where He who is restraining the son of perdition will remove His restraint?

          It seems to me that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of there are those who refuse to accept the truth. It seems it's not talking about one person but rather a group of people. It seems Paul indicates as much when he states that "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work". It says that this "man of lawlessness" will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, and if you think about it, that is what mankind is doing right now. It says that he will sit as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Well, the temple in the New Testament is not an actual physical temple sitting in Jerusalem right now. Christians are called the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 6:19. So, it would seem to me that the man of lawlessness will reject God's presence in his temple, and try to exalt himself above all that is God.

          So, it would seem, basing my opinion off this view, that the "man of lawlessness" or "son of perdition" is mankind in a condition of apostasy.

          Am I off my rocker here?
          I would agree. I would take 2 Thessalonians 2 to correspond with Satan's little season in a final end-time battle, Gog and Magog represening the wicked from all nations surrounding the camp of the saints - the Church.

          Paul
          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

          WPM

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok, so I'm back to the End-Times forum again. The thread title caught my attention...and I find myself agreeing with what it says (sorry Rookie!). Interesting...
            Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

            Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
              Ok, so I'm back to the End-Times forum again. The thread title caught my attention...and I find myself agreeing with what it says (sorry Rookie!). Interesting...
              I don't mind so much. There are a hundred other passages that support the premillennial view.
              The Rookie

              Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                I don't mind so much. There are a hundred other passages that support the premillennial view.
                In Revelation chapter 23, and Hezekiah chapter 2 mostly though.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                  In Revelation chapter 23, and Hezekiah chapter 2 mostly though.
                  Hey, those are some of my favorites in a theological street fight
                  The Rookie

                  Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                    In Revelation chapter 23, and Hezekiah chapter 2 mostly though.
                    Dave

                    I think you are being unfair on Premillennialism. There are a few problematic passages for Amillennialism in 1st and 2nd Imaginations.

                    Paul
                    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                    WPM

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                      I do have a question, though. When would be the time when Satan is released for one last round of deceit? Is that what is being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 where He who is restraining the son of perdition will remove His restraint?

                      It seems to me that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of there are those who refuse to accept the truth. It seems it's not talking about one person but rather a group of people. It seems Paul indicates as much when he states that "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work". It says that this "man of lawlessness" will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, and if you think about it, that is what mankind is doing right now. It says that he will sit as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Well, the temple in the New Testament is not an actual physical temple sitting in Jerusalem right now. Christians are called the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 6:19. So, it would seem to me that the man of lawlessness will reject God's presence in his temple, and try to exalt himself above all that is God.

                      So, it would seem, basing my opinion off this view, that the "man of lawlessness" or "son of perdition" is mankind in a condition of apostasy.

                      Am I off my rocker here?
                      You are right...this is what Coffman says on it:
                      http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bc...th&chapter=002
                      Verse 3
                      let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,


                      There is no hint here regarding the length of the time interval between the time Paul wrote and the actual coming of Christ in the Second Advent. In the light of intervening events, we now know that centuries and millenniums of time were to elapse before the final judgment; but as regards the actual date, we are no better off than were they. The event is still scheduled for a time yet future; and, as the mystery of lawlessness was working then, so it is now; but no man can know how long it will be before the Lord comes.

                      The man of sin ...
                      See excursus on this at the end of the notes on this chapter. He is the same as the "lawless one" in 2 Thess. 2:8, with this distinction, that "the man of sin" refers to a progressive development of an anti-Christian influence, whereas "the lawless one" is thought by many to refer to some terminal and final embodiment of evil. The interpretation presented here is that the man of sin has indeed appeared. The man of sin sitteth in the temple; he exalts himself; he is a false apostle, the son of perdition; names of blasphemy are upon his head; and he is drunken with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus; but his course is not yet run. The final usurpation of the place of God himself has not yet taken place.

                      The son of perdition ...

                      Judas is the only other person so designated in the New Testament. Just as he was the object of prior prophecy, so also is the apostle of apostasy.


                      Verse 4
                      he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.


                      This verse is understood as revealing the character of the final lawless one who shall be the culmination of that evil progression, or as marking the true spiritual import of those innovations and corruptions which have been exhibited by the "man of sin" (in a collective sense) as already historically revealed. A strong case may be made out for either view.

                      All that is called God ...
                      A persecutor of the church exalts himself against God in the person of his followers; a perverter of the word of God exalts himself against God in his word.

                      Or that is worshiped ...
                      This indicates the total atheism and unbounded egotism of the ultimate man of sin.

                      Sitteth in the temple of God ...

                      There can be no way that this is a reference to the Jewish temple. Paul, who wrote the Corinthians that "Ye are the temple of God," would never have made that den of thieves and robbers in Jerusalem the "temple of God" historically. First, it means the church of Jesus Christ; but in context it means the apostate church of Jesus Christ, a deduction that is mandatory from the fact of the apostasy being Paul's subject in this paragraph. Therefore, whenever and wherever the "man of sin" appears it will be in the church apostate!

                      Sitteth ...
                      This is a most peculiar verb to be used in such a context; and this writer, who has seen the Pope borne into the Basilica of St. Peter, hoisted above the people and elevated above the high altar upon the shoulders of those who carry him (literally "sitting") into the sanctuary cannot escape the deep. impression that a prophecy of that very spectacle is imbedded in this remarkable verb. Who else, ever, in the history of humanity, always entered the church house "sitting," and even taking the Lord's Supper "sitting"? Luther was outraged by this, and said, "Let the Pope stand up to take the Lord's Supper, like any other stinking sinner."

                      Setting himself forth as God ...
                      The papacy fulfills this in the blasphemous titles of the supreme pontiff, but there may be a more drastic fulfillment of it in the revelation of the terminal "man of sin."
                      ***************************
                      God bless
                      "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                        You are right...this is what Coffman says on it:
                        http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bc...th&chapter=002
                        Verse 3
                        let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

                        There is no hint here regarding the length of the time interval between the time Paul wrote and the actual coming of Christ in the Second Advent. In the light of intervening events, we now know that centuries and millenniums of time were to elapse before the final judgment; but as regards the actual date, we are no better off than were they. The event is still scheduled for a time yet future; and, as the mystery of lawlessness was working then, so it is now; but no man can know how long it will be before the Lord comes.

                        The man of sin ...
                        See excursus on this at the end of the notes on this chapter. He is the same as the "lawless one" in 2 Thess. 2:8, with this distinction, that "the man of sin" refers to a progressive development of an anti-Christian influence, whereas "the lawless one" is thought by many to refer to some terminal and final embodiment of evil. The interpretation presented here is that the man of sin has indeed appeared. The man of sin sitteth in the temple; he exalts himself; he is a false apostle, the son of perdition; names of blasphemy are upon his head; and he is drunken with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus; but his course is not yet run. The final usurpation of the place of God himself has not yet taken place.

                        The son of perdition ...
                        Judas is the only other person so designated in the New Testament. Just as he was the object of prior prophecy, so also is the apostle of apostasy.


                        Verse 4
                        he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

                        This verse is understood as revealing the character of the final lawless one who shall be the culmination of that evil progression, or as marking the true spiritual import of those innovations and corruptions which have been exhibited by the "man of sin" (in a collective sense) as already historically revealed. A strong case may be made out for either view.

                        All that is called God ...
                        A persecutor of the church exalts himself against God in the person of his followers; a perverter of the word of God exalts himself against God in his word.

                        Or that is worshiped ...
                        This indicates the total atheism and unbounded egotism of the ultimate man of sin.

                        Sitteth in the temple of God ...
                        There can be no way that this is a reference to the Jewish temple. Paul, who wrote the Corinthians that "Ye are the temple of God," would never have made that den of thieves and robbers in Jerusalem the "temple of God" historically. First, it means the church of Jesus Christ; but in context it means the apostate church of Jesus Christ, a deduction that is mandatory from the fact of the apostasy being Paul's subject in this paragraph. Therefore, whenever and wherever the "man of sin" appears it will be in the church apostate!

                        Sitteth ...
                        This is a most peculiar verb to be used in such a context; and this writer, who has seen the Pope borne into the Basilica of St. Peter, hoisted above the people and elevated above the high altar upon the shoulders of those who carry him (literally "sitting") into the sanctuary cannot escape the deep. impression that a prophecy of that very spectacle is imbedded in this remarkable verb. Who else, ever, in the history of humanity, always entered the church house "sitting," and even taking the Lord's Supper "sitting"? Luther was outraged by this, and said, "Let the Pope stand up to take the Lord's Supper, like any other stinking sinner."

                        Setting himself forth as God ...
                        The papacy fulfills this in the blasphemous titles of the supreme pontiff, but there may be a more drastic fulfillment of it in the revelation of the terminal "man of sin."
                        ***************************
                        God bless
                        Whilst I believe El Papa is part of the anti-Christ system I believe he cannot be viewed as part of the temple of God. This relates to the rerdeemed of God alone. I believe this refers to the spirit of anti-Christ operating within the true Church in the last days – evidenced by the notable growth of false doctrine and unscriptural practices, signs and wonders. That is not to suggest that this anti-Christ spirit can possess the true believer – I don't believe so – but he can influence the believer to accept, expound and walk in error.

                        Paul
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here's one thing that is confusing to me, though. Revelation 20 states that after the thousand years have expired Satan will be loosed. Would that mean that Satan is going to be loosed after the reign of Jesus Christ? That doesn't make much sense to me because 1 Corinthians 15:25 states that Jesus Christ must reign until all enemies are put under His feet and death is defeated. Wouldn't that also mean that Satan must be finished off completely then as well? Chapter 20 of Revelation makes it sound as if the resurrection won't happen until after Satan is loosed and defeated. It talks of the sea giving up the dead and Death and Hades delivering up their dead. Will Satan's "thousand year binding" be completed before Jesus Christ's "thousand year reign"?

                          What am I missing here?
                          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                            Here's one thing that is confusing to me, though. Revelation 20 states that after the thousand years have expired Satan will be loosed. Would that mean that Satan is going to be loosed after the reign of Jesus Christ? That doesn't make much sense to me because 1 Corinthians 15:25 states that Jesus Christ must reign until all enemies are put under His feet and death is defeated. Wouldn't that also mean that Satan must be finished off completely then as well? Chapter 20 of Revelation makes it sound as if the resurrection won't happen until after Satan is loosed and defeated. It talks of the sea giving up the dead and Death and Hades delivering up their dead. Will Satan's "thousand year binding" be completed before Jesus Christ's "thousand year reign"?

                            What am I missing here?
                            That challenge exists for all mills. None of the views believe that Christ's reign stops when Satan is released, only that during the thousand yrs period Christ is reigning. Certainly one could argue that He must then 'by implication' stop reigning, but Premils, Postmils and Amils are all in agreement that the reign also exists during Satan's little season although not expressly stated.

                            Paul
                            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                            WPM

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              wpm

                              That challenge exists for all mills. None of the views believe that Christ's reign stops when Satan is released, only that during the thousand yrs period Christ is reigning. Certainly one could argue that He must then 'by implication' stop reigning, but Premils, Postmils and Amils are all in agreement that the reign also exists during Satan's little season although not expressly stated.
                              One satans best doctrines is enviroment.

                              Man is the way he is because of his enviroment; if man had a better enviroment than all will be well.

                              All this fuss to fight global warming and fighting world hunger is doctrine that is not of Christ.

                              There will be perfect enviroment; exactally what the doctrine of man and demons have been says was needed for a perfect world; a return to eden.

                              Satan and man will rebel against that perfect enviroment; thus exposeing that perfect world doctrine as the lie it is.

                              Comment

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