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  • Seven questions on Revelation 20

    Originally posted by John146 View Post
    We'd almost all agree that the general resurrection of all the dead, saved and lost, occurs at the second coming of Christ after the thousand years. We would almost all agree that the day of judgment/reward of all people takes place at that time. The understanding of the first resurrection varies a little bit, but no amil believes that it refers to the physical resurrection of believers that occurs at the second coming of Christ.
    Lay this out for me, because I think Rev. 20 in it's context is clear, but your paragraph here muddies it all up for me:

    1) When is "the first resurrection", and what is it (physical/spiritual)?
    2) Is there a so-called 'second' resurrection ("the rest of the dead did not live again until..."), and when and what is it?
    3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?
    4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?
    5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)
    6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?
    7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it's fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?

    I have more observations and questions about this passage in particular, but I'll leave it at these seven for now.

    Thanks. - Lk.11
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  • #2
    I really do believe that amillennialism will be easy for me to disprove (as the pre-trib doctrine was: see link), but it'll take me awhile to type it all out (now that I see it, there's just so much proof). In the mean time, answer these seven questions for me, if you would. I also don't understand how Satan was bound and cast into the pit at the cross, and yet after Jesus' resurrection He Himself told His disciples that all who believe will cast out demons (Mark 16:17)...? Refresh me: What does amil say to that?

    Thanks. - Lk.11
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      1) When is “the first resurrection”, and what is it (physical/spiritual)?
      The first resurrection is at the 2nd Coming. It is also commonly called the Rapture.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      2) Is there a so-called ‘second’ resurrection (“the rest of the dead did not live again until...”), and when and what is it?
      It is the judgmentof the wicked at the conclusion of the Millennium. It is also known as the Great White Throne judgment.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?
      The first resurrection/Rapture will include the saints from all the previous ages as well as the ones who are alive at the time. The 2nd resurrection will include all the lost from throughout history.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this “thousand years” to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?
      The Rapture/2nd Coming and the beginning of the eternal state described in Revelation 21/22.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)
      Not good enough. Revelation 18-20 are all one continuous sequence.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?
      If they are symbolic, then the Bible has not given us the meaning of the symbol. That would be inconsistent with other Biblical symbols. The Bible always explains its symbols.
      Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
      7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it’s fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?
      The beast is symbolic of a man and his government that will rule the world just prior to the 2nd Coming. The Mark is a literal marking that will appear on the skin of the right hand or the forehead. They are both future as of this writing.
      ----------------------------------------------
      When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
        The first resurrection/Rapture will include the saints from all the previous ages as well as the ones who are alive at the time. The 2nd resurrection will include all the lost from throughout history.
        Do you have proof of this claim? It is very clear who is involved in the first resurrection and who is not, and saints from all previous ages are not mentioned in Rev 20:4-6.

        2 groups of dead are mentioned, the tribulation martyrs and "the rest of the dead"

        The martyrs - first resurrection

        "the rest of the dead" (everyone else who ever died, believers and non-believers) - second resurrection

        I would think that a "literalist" could appreciate this LOL

        Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
        Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

        So the dead are divided into two groups here - the martyrs and everybody else. Every "saint from every previous age" would be included in the "rest of the dead" resurrection because, simply, they aren't qualified to be a "martyr in the Great Tribulation", which is who is raised in the "first resurrection"

        John 5:28-29 is an account of the "second resurrection" or the "rest of the dead" resurrection and it includes both righteous and unrighteous. This resurrection occurs at the end of the millenium....

        Answers to OP.

        1) When is "the first resurrection", and what is it (physical/spiritual)?

        physical resurrection of the tribulation martyrs before Christ's second coming

        2) Is there a so-called 'second' resurrection ("the rest of the dead did not live again until..."), and when and what is it?

        John 5:28-29 and Dan 12:2 are both accounts of the "second resurrection" and this occurs at the end of Christ's millenial reign, at the Great White throne Judgment Day.

        3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?

        first resurrection - tribulation martyrs
        second resurrection - everyone else that has ever died

        4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?

        first resurrection & second resurrection, Christ's second coming & Judgment Day, Beginning of Christ's Millenial reign & end of same

        5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)
        chronological

        6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?
        literal

        7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it's fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?
        future - the mark is a grievous "new" sin that became available after the fall in the garden

        Comment


        • #5
          Both Jesus and the postle John were Jews with Hebrew mind-sets (and Jesus is alive forevermore).

          According to Jewish tradition surrrounding the Day of Trumpets (Lev.23: 24), it is (among other things)

          (1) the day of the resurrection of the dead;
          (2) the Day God's judgment of the world begins.
          (3) the first day of the 7-day marriage consummation period of God and His bride.

          It begins "the days of awe" which are linked with verses like Joel 2: 31:

          "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." (Joel 2: 31).

          According to the Hebrew mind-set, there are 3 groups of people, and currently there are 3 books:

          (1) The wholly righteous; and
          (2) The wholly wicked; and
          (3) The average person.

          The Day of Trumpets (1st day of the 7th month) is the day of God's judgment, and the decree is sealed on the Day of Atonement

          The wholly righteous have there names written in the book of Life, and will be resurrected on the Day of Trumpets or removed into heaven.

          The average person has until the Day of Atonement (10th day of the 7th month) to repent.

          The wholly wicked will never repent:

          "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." (Rev.16: 9)

          Jesus said,

          (1) "Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of Man." (Luk.21: 36)

          (2) "Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." (Rev.3: 10).

          The following is written about those who will be taken out of the world before the wrath of God is poured out:

          "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20: 4-6).

          So this gives some credit to the "left behind" theory. But I personally would call "the first resurrection" a pre-wrath resurrection, and not a "pre-tribulation" resurrection, because I think the N.T makes a clear distinction between the tribulation (of the saints) which ends with the resurrection (on one hand), and the wrath of God which follows it on the other hand.

          ananias
          "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

          And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

          Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
          (Mat.23: 8-10)

          AND

          "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

          By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
          (Joh.13: 34-35)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
            Lay this out for me, because I think Rev. 20 in it's context is clear, but your paragraph here muddies it all up for me:

            1) When is "the first resurrection", and what is it (physical/spiritual)?
            2) Is there a so-called 'second' resurrection ("the rest of the dead did not live again until..."), and when and what is it?
            3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?
            4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?
            5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)
            6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?
            7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it's fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?

            I have more observations and questions about this passage in particular, but I'll leave it at these seven for now.

            Thanks. - Lk.11
            (1) First resurrection as per my first post.

            (2 and 3) Second resurrection at the close of the thousand years (which is literal) All those who ever lived and died (and who were not raised at the time of the first resurrection) will be raised and stand before God at the GWT judgment. Those who are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire - which is hte second death.

            (4) Thousand years between the second coming of Christ and:

            "then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all. " (1Co 15:24-28)

            (5) Rev 19-20 are chronoligical - the saints are resurrected and taken to heaven at the time of the 1st resurrection - ome back with Christ after the 7-day marriage-consummation to judge the beast and false prophet - Christ binds Satan. Resurrected saints reign with Him 1,000 years over the naturally-born survivors of "the Day of Christ/Day of the LORD", and their naturally-born descendants

            (6) Beheaded martyed are lietral - it corresponds to Mat.24: 9, 21-22 and Rev.7: 14.

            (7) Beast and his image a future event - partly fulfilled in persons such as Nero and the Pope - ultimate fulfillment the end of the age. Beast's image both symbolic and literal - thinking/beliefs/faith (forehead) + actions brought about through the same (right hand) = receiving the literal mark of the beast.

            ananias
            "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

            And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

            Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
            (Mat.23: 8-10)

            AND

            "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

            By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
            (Joh.13: 34-35)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
              Lay this out for me, because I think Rev. 20 in it's context is clear, but your paragraph here muddies it all up for me:

              1) When is "the first resurrection", and what is it (physical/spiritual)?
              2) Is there a so-called 'second' resurrection ("the rest of the dead did not live again until..."), and when and what is it?
              3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?
              4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?
              5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)
              6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?
              7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it's fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?

              I have more observations and questions about this passage in particular, but I'll leave it at these seven for now.

              Thanks. - Lk.11
              1) When is "the first resurrection", and what is it (physical/spiritual)?

              The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

              Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

              Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

              Since Christ has conquered the grave for His redeemed, they can now walk in the fullness of the resurrection life.

              Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

              2) Is there a so-called 'second' resurrection ("the rest of the dead did not live again until..."), and when and what is it?

              General resurrection when Jesus comes. In Christ’s description of the resurrection he seems to depict a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

              There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

              3) Who takes place in each of the respective resurrections?

              See above.

              4) Fill in the blanks: You would consider this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between _____ and _____?

              Fill in the blanks: this "thousand years" to symbolize the time between the resurrection and Second Coming.

              5) Could you give a simplified passage construction of Rev. 19-20? (Are these two chapters chronological?)

              The end of Rev 19 is the end of the world/wicked. Coincides with the end of milllennium.

              6) Are the beheaded martyrs symbolic or literal?

              These and others are the dead in Christ now.

              7) Is the beast and his image and mark a past, present, or future event (when is it's fulfillment?), and are they physical or symbolic?

              Ongoing of the world's mark of reprobation.
              Last edited by wpm; Oct 9th 2008, 04:59 AM.
              "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

              http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

              WPM

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello strong one (Sampson)

                Paul has answered your qu well, but id like to add this.

                Jesus teaching on the ressurection


                "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
                26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

                27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

                28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
                29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
                v 25 and 26 suggest a spiritual ressurection ( now is), while v 28 and 29 seem to suggest a physical coming forth from the grave ,of both good and bad people.

                Is this what we see in rev 20?


                REV 20
                Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
                12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
                13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
                Who are the small and the great?

                REV 11
                "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."




                REV 19
                And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."




                PS 115
                The LORD has been mindful of us; He will bless us;
                He will bless the house of Israel;
                He will bless the house of Aaron.
                13 He will bless those who fear the LORD,
                The small together with the great.
                "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
                13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • #9
                  After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. -Revelation 4:1

                  At this point, the writer sees Lord Jesus in heaven, resurrected. The "first resurrection" had already occurred before the writer had received this Gospel. Now, from the moment that this voice summoned the writer to heaven onward, he was to see the future, which is the meaning of the trm, "things which must be hereafter". And so, I ask this question. How is Christ the first resurrection in Chapter 20 when it already states that the ones who were beheaded for the account of Christ whyile not receiving the Mark of the beast or bowing to the beast were? How do you explain that?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by crush View Post
                    Do you have proof of this claim? It is very clear who is involved in the first resurrection and who is not, and saints from all previous ages are not mentioned in Rev 20:4-6.
                    They are not excluded either.

                    I'm basing this on my understanding of the Rapture and correctly interpreted dispensationalism. It could turn into a very, very lengthy discussion to spell it all out. I wrote an article on it several months ago that occasionally collects more material as I come across new things to consider. Right now if I printed it out on standard paper it would be about 17 pages long at a 12-point font, so I'm a little leery to post it here and totally hijack this thread.
                    ----------------------------------------------
                    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by third hero View Post
                      After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. -Revelation 4:1

                      At this point, the writer sees Lord Jesus in heaven, resurrected. The "first resurrection" had already occurred before the writer had received this Gospel. Now, from the moment that this voice summoned the writer to heaven onward, he was to see the future, which is the meaning of the trm, "things which must be hereafter". And so, I ask this question. How is Christ the first resurrection in Chapter 20 when it already states that the ones who were beheaded for the account of Christ whyile not receiving the Mark of the beast or bowing to the beast were? How do you explain that?
                      Revelation 12:5 says, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

                      Do you not agree that John not only describes the incarnation here but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven?
                      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                      WPM

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wpm View Post
                        Revelation 12:5 says, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

                        Do you not agree that John not only describes the incarnation here but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven?
                        Um, my Bible says Jesus is seated at the right hand of the throne, not on the throne itself.
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jesus was caught up to God and his Throne .
                          If he was my dad (and he is) id be sitting on his lap.

                          Seriously
                          Do you not agree that John not only describes the incarnation here but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven?
                          yes it does.
                          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wpm View Post
                            Revelation 12:5 says, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

                            Do you not agree that John not only describes the incarnation here but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven?

                            You got me there wpm. I can not say that the event that you have just persribed did happen in the past.

                            However, just because you have one example does not mean that every example is likened to the first.

                            I must continue to bring this up, because your answer does not satisfy the question that is presented here.

                            And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

                            These scriptures clearly point to a certain people who fulfils the requirements that are clearly spelled out in verse 4. These are the ones who participate in the "First Resurrection". These verses go so far as to say that they LIVE with Christ for 1000 years. According to these scriptures alone, they refer to the tribulation saints, and those are the ones who are resurrected.

                            How can you account for this without changing the verses altogether?
                            Last edited by third hero; Oct 9th 2008, 08:37 AM. Reason: correcting a booboo.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                              They are not excluded either.
                              Ah, but they ARE excluded.

                              It's a very simple formula. All the dead are mentioned in Rev 20:4-6. The tribulation martyrs + the rest of the dead = all the dead.

                              I'm basing this on my understanding of the Rapture and correctly interpreted dispensationalism. It could turn into a very, very lengthy discussion to spell it all out. I wrote an article on it several months ago that occasionally collects more material as I come across new things to consider. Right now if I printed it out on standard paper it would be about 17 pages long at a 12-point font, so I'm a little leery to post it here and totally hijack this thread.
                              NP

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