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Still trying to figure out this rapture thing...

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  • Still trying to figure out this rapture thing...

    I'm a fairly new person to reading the bible and here recently I've spent some time reading through this board and trying to get a feel for other Christians. I usually read threads that pertain to the rapture. It seems like the rapture is the only thing that I really get excited about when reading or talking about the end times. I'm not sure which side to follow with and starting to think that people picking sides is a ploy of the devil to force us apart and forget the two greatest commands that Jesus told us about while here on this earth.

    However, I know that discussion with opposing viewpoints can actually shed light on the facts and on opinions. So, I'm going to go against my opinion of discussing/arguing about the rapture because I would like to get some different point of views.

    So, on to the point of my thread. I saw in another post on this forum about 2 Thessalonians 2. Such an interesting chapter that I had never connected with the end times, but after reading it, it appears to be very significant to the discussions. Yet, this is the first I've seen of this mention.

    I will quote this entire chapter here of the versions that I read on biblegateway.com.

    My question and point for the discussion is verse 6 and 7. What is holding back the man of sin? What is causing our enemy to be held down until it has been taken away? Could it be the Church? The Holy Spirit? What is it?

    From my reading, and my opinion, it appears this is talking about some form of rapture of the Church/Holy Spirit. Now, I feel that if people want an understanding of the bible, we are to pray for wisdom and the Spirit within us will give us the answer. I feel that when I read this this morning, it was explained that this is the rapture and the only way that the end will come is by the Church/Holy Spirit being removed from the earth.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    I myself believe that it is indeed the Holy Spirit. What could possibly hold back Satan and his man of lawlessness but something supernatural? The Holy Spirit and HIS work through Christians seems to be the only one that fits the bill.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mfowler12 View Post
      ...My question and point for the discussion is verse 6 and 7. What is holding back the man of sin? What is causing our enemy to be held down until it has been taken away? Could it be the Church? The Holy Spirit? What is it?...
      The restrainer is referred to as both "he" and "what". Here's a passage from John that will help:

      1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the {spirit} of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
      Note the word "them". It includes both the spirit of the antichrist (satan) which was already present in the world and the future Antichrist. The Church overcomes them both via the indwelling of the "He" that is in us, Who is greater than he that is in the world satan). In regards to the Trinity, you seem to have 3 choices here for the "He" (Father, Son,m Holy Spirit). John solves that problem in the context. Both before and after this passage, the issue John is dealing with is the Indwelling of Jesus Christ:

      1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
      Lay these passaages besides 2 Thess 2:6,7 and you should see nothing Paul says there disputes what John said. The restrainer is the Indwelling of Jesus Christ ("he") in the Church ("what").

      Comment


      • #4
        Whelp, that settles it then. These verses are conclusive proof of a pre-trib rapture! Ha!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Rookie78 View Post
          Whelp, that settles it then. These verses are conclusive proof of a pre-trib rapture! Ha!
          yeah, but post-tribbers will use the exact same verses to "prove" post-trib.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rookie78 View Post
            Whelp, that settles it then. These verses are conclusive proof of a pre-trib rapture! Ha!
            Paul was talking about the Day Of The Lord in 2 Thess 2. As the poster above pointed out, you've still got some dots to connect.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by IBWatching View Post
              Paul was talking about the Day Of The Lord in 2 Thess 2. As the poster above pointed out, you've still got some dots to connect.
              Is the day of the Lord the 1000 year reign (7th day of rest)? If so, the antichrist would not be revealed then, he has to be revealed between pre and mid tribulation. Maybe I'm missing something, I'm no Bible scholar.

              Comment


              • #8
                I will now state very matter of factly that those versus referr to polka doted elphants in a circus and you will all believe that it is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  mfowler12:

                  You might find it very interesting to know, that from my observations as well as personal experience, most people who see the scriptures pointing to a posttrib rapture, came to that conclusion after being pretrib.

                  And this is how it happened: we were bothered by people having so many different takes on the subject and knew only one was right. Or we just weren't convinced that all the pieces fit in a pretrib scenario. Or we had only been exposed to pretrib because that was the "mainstream" thought in all the book stores. Or a combination of all.
                  So we started digging into the scriptures with a finetooth comb all over again.
                  As I stated in another thread, I banished every preconceived thought I ever had and every book or statement I ever read on any theory, and went directly to the statements of Jesus in the gosples and in Revelation (which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ that He gave to John)
                  Then on paper I made two columns and wrote down exactly what He said and what He DIDN'T say. By the time I was finished I was no longer in a state of confusion.
                  Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
                  ********************************************
                  MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Good Morning

                    2thess 2:1
                    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
                    This would be the rapture, as its the time he gathers us to himself.

                    2thess 2:3
                    Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy[Or falling away from the faith] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
                    So the day of our gathering will not happen until the apostasy and the man of sin is revealed..


                    2thess 2:6-8
                    And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
                    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
                    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming
                    The restrainer cannot be the Holy Spirit or the Church because we are gathered to him at his coming--see v 1. To say it is would contradict the above verses and see us gathered before the man o sin is revealed.


                    When Jesus comes he destroys the man of sin, and when he comes he gathers us.

                    So who is the restrainer?
                    At the time this was written Rome was ruling.
                    We know from Dan 7 that out of rome (4th beast) ten horns would rise and after that the little boasting horn would be revealed.
                    So rome would have to be out of the way for the rest of that prophecy to be fulfilled.

                    Maybe this is why Paul is so vague as to the identity of the restrainer.
                    To say publically that Rome would fall would have been dangerous thing to do back then.

                    God bless
                    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mfowler12 View Post
                      I'm a fairly new person to reading the bible and here recently I've spent some time reading through this board and trying to get a feel for other Christians. I usually read threads that pertain to the rapture. It seems like the rapture is the only thing that I really get excited about when reading or talking about the end times. I'm not sure which side to follow with and starting to think that people picking sides is a ploy of the devil to force us apart and forget the two greatest commands that Jesus told us about while here on this earth.

                      However, I know that discussion with opposing viewpoints can actually shed light on the facts and on opinions. So, I'm going to go against my opinion of discussing/arguing about the rapture because I would like to get some different point of views.

                      So, on to the point of my thread. I saw in another post on this forum about 2 Thessalonians 2. Such an interesting chapter that I had never connected with the end times, but after reading it, it appears to be very significant to the discussions. Yet, this is the first I've seen of this mention.

                      I will quote this entire chapter here of the versions that I read on biblegateway.com.

                      My question and point for the discussion is verse 6 and 7. What is holding back the man of sin? What is causing our enemy to be held down until it has been taken away? Could it be the Church? The Holy Spirit? What is it?

                      From my reading, and my opinion, it appears this is talking about some form of rapture of the Church/Holy Spirit. Now, I feel that if people want an understanding of the bible, we are to pray for wisdom and the Spirit within us will give us the answer. I feel that when I read this this morning, it was explained that this is the rapture and the only way that the end will come is by the Church/Holy Spirit being removed from the earth.

                      Thoughts?
                      To discover the identity of the restrainer, all we have to do is create a dosser on the man of sin, and think about who will be able to keep the man of sin from accomplishing his goals and thwart his instruments and methods.

                      Dosser: man of sin.

                      Arises during a time of apostasy.
                      ____Apostasy: the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion

                      Alias: son of destruction, man of lawlessness

                      Exalts himself above every so-called God or object of worship.
                      ____Possible corollary: the formal renunciation of ALL religion.

                      Claims divinity for himself.

                      He comes in accord with Satan's activity, using false signs and wonders, and all deception.

                      He comes at a time when the world is ripe for deception because those who are being deceived do not love the truth and they are deluded.

                      What conditions must be met in order for the man of sin to arise?

                      1. The world must be in a state of apostasy.
                      2. The world must be ripe and ready to accept the word of a deceiver.
                      3. The world will be in a spiritual state characterized by a wish to take pleasure in wickedness rather than face the truth.

                      What are the goals of the restrainer?

                      The restrainer must keep the world from falling into apostasy.
                      The restrainer must promote the truth and keep the world from falling into spiritual darkness.
                      The restrainer must be able to convict the world of sin, and reason with a world willing to bow to the truth.

                      Who has been assigned tasks with these goals?

                      Verse 13 gives us a clue.

                      But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

                      Jesus explicitly makes the Holy Spirit, in concert with the Apostles responsible for meeting these goals.

                      When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

                      . . .

                      But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. John 15:26-27, 16:7-11

                      The Holy Spirit is keeping the man of lawlessness from appearing due to his influence in the world concerning sin, judgment, and righteousness. Once the Holy Spirit steps aside, wickedness and deception will have free reign.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mfowler12 View Post
                        My question and point for the discussion is verse 6 and 7. What is holding back the man of sin? What is causing our enemy to be held down until it has been taken away? Could it be the Church? The Holy Spirit? What is it?
                        Paul was talking about the Jews being kicked out of Rome by Claudius, back in 49 AD. He said that was how the Antichrist was removed, back in his day. So it was the power of Rome that kept the Jews down, who are against Christ.
                        Oct of this year is when it is revealed that the Vatican is now under the rule of the Jews (who should be called Zionists, in today's terminology). Evidence is the Directive to the Bishops, to take effect immediately, the cessation of the speaking of the Hebrew name of God (YAHWEH) from being done in church. It had been used in certain songs or whatever, regularly in the Mass.
                        So the Zionists (Antichrist) is in power right now because they gained power over Rome, through control of the banks and using financial coercion. So now the long time enemy has the upper hand to destroy the Christian religion.
                        This might sound funny but read the Jamieson-Faust-Brown Bible Commentary and tell me if you come up with a different conclusion. This was published in the 1870's and back then, no one would have ever believed that Israel would ever be a nation again, so they did not know how to explain it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ethnikos View Post
                          Paul was talking about the Jews being kicked out of Rome by Claudius, back in 49 bc. He said that was how the Antichrist was removed, back in his day. So it was the power of Rome that kept the Jews down, who are against Christ.
                          Oct of this year is when it is revealed that the Vatican is now under the rule of the Jews (who should be called Zionists, in today's terminology). Evidence is the Directive to the Bishops, to take effect immediately, the cessation of the speaking of the Hebrew name of God (YAHWEH) from being done in church. It had been used in certain songs or whatever, regularly in the Mass.
                          So the Zionists (Antichrist) is in power right now because they gained power over Rome, through control of the banks and using financial coercion. So now the long time enemy has the upper hand to destroy the Christian religion.
                          This might sound funny but read the Jamieson-Faust-Brown Bible Commentary and tell me if you come up with a different conclusion. This was published in the 1870's and back then, no one would have ever believed that Israel would ever be a nation again, so they did not know how to explain it.
                          Is this post actually supposed to be taken seriously? Do I hear a "Heil Hitler" in there somewhere?
                          ----------------------------------------------
                          When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                            Is this post actually supposed to be taken seriously? Do I hear a "Heil Hitler" in there somewhere?
                            Apparently, back in 1870, they did not have the PC police to go around calling people Nazi's for talking about Jews. Now days everyone is afraid to step on any toes for fear of offending anyone. How else does the Antichrist come to power? If you criticize him, you get beat down by the Koolaide drinking mob.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My question and point for the discussion is verse 6 and 7. What is holding back the man of sin? What is causing our enemy to be held down until it has been taken away? Could it be the Church? The Holy Spirit? What is it?
                              In my opinion, the restrainer is the "Hand of God". Here is my evidence. From the 1st century onward, the evil one has been attempting to create his representative. We have countless examples of failed world conquerers. Every single one of them met an early end, before they could conquer the world. Every one of them were thwarted by God.

                              God has a timeline and a plan in which He will have no one and nothing stop from happening as He sees fit. Jesus implies this in Acts 1:7. The fact that every would-be conquerer was defeated in one way or another for the last 2000 years proves it for me.

                              Moreover, if the Holy Spirit is removed, then no one can be saved during the Great Tribulation, since the Holy Spirit is the power that frees man from the grips of the evil one. If the Holy Spirit leaves, then mankind is not going to undergo a tribulation, they will suffer their damnation, as surely the Lord would destroy this entire planet, if the Holy Spirit left it. Without the Holy Spirit, no one could be saved.


                              And since the Holy Spirit is necessary to save souls during the Great Tribulation, the church, the temples of the Holy Spirit, must still be on earth as well, spreading the Gospel and losing their heads for the sake of Lord Jesus.

                              Therefore, the only one who can restrain the evil one is God, and since God's protection has always in the OT been known as "the Hand of God", then I can only conclude that this "Hand of God", otherwise known as the protection of God, is the restrainer that holds back the schemes of the Evil one.
                              Last edited by third hero; Oct 10th 2008, 05:19 AM. Reason: spelling and adding a thought

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