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  • Coming of the Lord.

    Warm greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth.

    I have always had a problem with this view.I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.

    I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading .

    {2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

    The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

    To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were.

    My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

    Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

    My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.

    The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden.


    In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

    Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out.Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation.

    I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect.I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.

    For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?

    God bless you.

    My view is Church get ready.

    In Christ.

    Brother Steven.

  • #2
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth.
    OK, that tells us what your teacher(s) believes, but have you come to your own conclusion on the matter?
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    I have always had a problem with this view. I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.
    Ah, you’re already ahead of me, good for you.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading.
    I agree completely.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    {2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

    The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

    To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were.
    I’m liking this more and more.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

    Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

    My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.
    That’s very similar to what my research has uncovered as well.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden.
    The Catholic Church certainly does have some mistaken teachings in their doctrines, but they are not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will come from Islam.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

    Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out.
    Even though that’s only an argument from silence, and the word “saints” does appear numerous times in the intervening chapters.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation.
    Agreed.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect. I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.
    Yeah, but the problem is getting people to have an open mind and to let the Bible outyell the things they’ve been filling their minds with for the last umpteen years from people like Grant Jeffrey, Hal Lindsey, and Tim LaHaye.
    Originally posted by james516 View Post
    For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?
    No disagreements here, brother.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by james516 View Post
      Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.
      This phenomenon also happens with "not so great" bible scholars like myself LOL. Nice post Steven.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you

        Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
        OK, that tells us what your teacher(s) believes, but have you come to your own conclusion on the matter?Ah, you’re already ahead of me, good for you. I agree completely.I’m liking this more and more. That’s very similar to what my research has uncovered as well. The Catholic Church certainly does have some mistaken teachings in their doctrines, but they are not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will come from Islam.Even though that’s only an argument from silence, and the word “saints” does appear numerous times in the intervening chapters.Agreed.Yeah, but the problem is getting people to have an open mind and to let the Bible outyell the things they’ve been filling their minds with for the last umpteen years from people like Grant Jeffrey, Hal Lindsey, and Tim LaHaye.No disagreements here, brother.

        Some believe Islam will produce the Anti-Christ.Ever heard of the black pope {not refering to race}You see the black pope is the most powerful man in the world and what if the Vatican took control of the Temple mount?

        If the vatican conspiracy does indeed happen,then a pope could very well set in the rebuilt Temple and claim to be God.The secret of secret societies like Roman Catholic Jesuits,Masons,Skull and Bones ect,are involved in a global takeover in the making for years whom the vatican is behind to take full control of Jerusalem and if the pope is out of the scope of prophecy the plan from years gone has deceived the people and has worked as planned.

        All I know whether it is a Islamic Fanatic or a Pope it will still be satan in human flesh.I believe while the Church is waiting on the Rapture and when Anti-Christ appears some will accept the mark of the beast not believing it is the real damnable mark or the real Anti-Christ.

        God bless you all.

        Brother Steven.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crush View Post
          This phenomenon also happens with "not so great" bible scholars like myself LOL. Nice post Steven.

          Crush I was in a frantic state of mind trying to arrange the pre-trib doctrine.Take Jesus the Word of Truth God`s Word for what it says,not what some bible scholar was taught to teach you it says.

          Thank you and God bless.

          In Christ.

          Brother Steven.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by james516 View Post
            Warm greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ.

            I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth.

            I have always had a problem with this view.I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.

            I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading .

            {2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

            The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

            To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were.

            My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

            Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

            My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.

            The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden.


            In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

            Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out.Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation.

            I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect.I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.

            For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?

            God bless you.

            My view is Church get ready.

            In Christ.

            Brother Steven.

            For the dead in Christ shall rise first............amen.

            Comment


            • #7
              what about http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:10&version=31 Rev 3:10?

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear James 5:16 - As you probably realize, there are two resurrections; one of the righteous dead and one of the unrighteous dead. All who are ever saved are part of the first resurrection, and on such the second death hath no power. Rev. 20:4-6.

                Next we must ask where Jesus is ruling from for a thousand years. In heaven or physically on the earth? When we come to Revelation there are different viewpoints from where John is shown things. The first viewpoint was in Revelation 1:10 when John was caught in spirit to the end of the Church Age or the Lord's day where he heard a voice behind him and he looks back over this present time we're in. The second vision viewpoint was in Revelation 4:1-2 when there was the door opened in heaven and John was caught up to heaven and he saw this great scene in the throne room. If you will read through this portion of scripture from Chapter 4 of Revelation you will see some in heaven prior to that coming of Jesus that all the world will see. He came as a thief to some prior to coming where all the tribes of the earth shall see Him at the beginning of the millennium in Matthew 24:30. What are they doing and how did they get there?
                Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a spearate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is diffeant then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dworthington View Post
                    I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a separate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is different then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.
                    Question......when are those dead in Christ resurrected?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dworthington View Post
                      I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a spearate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is diffeant then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

                      I am very aware of only two resurrections.They are seperated by 1000 years and the wicked wil be judged and damned to the lake of fire this is the second death resurrection {i.e.Great White Throne Rev 20:11-15}

                      What thus saith the Scripture concerning the 1st and only resurrection of the saved after the Tribulation?

                      Brother know this first that no prophecy is of any private interpretation.{2nd Peter 1:20}

                      Jesus disciples wanted to know the sign of his coming and the end of the world.First off they ask Him what would happen before His return.

                      Matt 24:3

                      [3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

                      Ok what must happen before the sign of His coming appears.


                      Matt 24:4

                      [4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

                      Since history shows the pre-trib rapture was not taught nor believed prior to 1812 and many pre-trib bible scholars either are not aware of this or they hide this fact themselves, I consider it a end time deception.The late Corrie Ten Boom who experienced the Holocaust wrote a letter in 1974 she believed the pre-trib doctrine was one that Jesus warned about.

                      Matt 24:15

                      [15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


                      I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples ,what "they would see for themselves".One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen.No Jesus was was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

                      Matt 24:21

                      [21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


                      Yes the Tribulation is coming and Jesus testimony is what will happen "before the sign of His coming" as the Scriptures following will show.


                      Matt 24:27



                      [27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                      Nothing complicated about this here.


                      Matt 24:29


                      [29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

                      What follows after the Tribulation is the sign of His coming.

                      Matt 24:30

                      [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                      Ok we see here Jesus return is after the Tribulation and the Rapture is after the Tribulation as Matt 24:31 will show.Many try to deny the Rapture is not taught in Matt 24th chapter because it would put the Rapture post Trib.The following verse is the Saved being Raptured after the Trib no doubt.Again to deny this is again in violation of {2nd Peter 1:20}


                      Matt 24:31

                      [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                      Here we have the gathering of the elect {i.e.post trib}the angels,the sounding of the "Trumpet" clearly after the Tribulation.These are the very same things in the so-called Pre-Trib verses immediately after the Tribulation at the ending of the Tribulation which is a unknown day and hour.

                      The Rapture is not 7 years before the last day as will be shown.


                      Ok we have had brother Matthews Testimony now we will let brother Mark Testify.

                      {Deuteronomy 19:15 b}

                      :at the mouth of two witnesses,or at the mouth of three witnesses,shall the matter be established.

                      The Court now calls Brother Mark to the witnesses stand as a witnesses for the post trib truth your honourable Jesus.

                      Mark 13:4

                      [4] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


                      Let the truth be told.

                      Mark 13:15

                      [5] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

                      Lets see a 196 year old pre-trib doctrine,is this really what thus saith the Scriptures?

                      Could a pre-trib rapture doctrine be a end time deception that Jesus Christ our God warned of?

                      Brother Matthew has witnessed to a post Trib view.Brother Mark what saith the Holy Spirit by your testimony?


                      Brother Mark,what did Jesus say His beloved saints would see on one future day?

                      Mark 13:14

                      [14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

                      Our beloved Saviour was telling the Saints what to expect one future day as if they would be there themselves and not to be deceived about it as brother Mark testifies.



                      Mark 13:19,20

                      [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
                      [20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


                      The elect is the Church that will no doubt go through the Tribulation.Do a search you will find the elect,the saints all refer to the Church and dont be deceived about it.


                      Mark 13:24,25,26,27.




                      24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
                      [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
                      [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
                      [27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

                      Saints,after the Tribulation v24 will Jesus return v26 for the elect {i.e.the Church}v27.Dont be deceived about it.


                      Brother Mark you may step down.We now call Brother Paul to the witness stand your honourable Lord Jesus Christ.



                      {1st Cor 15:51,52}

                      [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                      [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                      This was a mystery to the Corinthian Church but now St Paul reveals the mystery.The trumpet shall sound the same trumpet as {Matt 24:31}that sounds immediately after the tribulation {Matt 24:29}.

                      {1st Thess 4:13,14,15,16,17,18}


                      [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
                      [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
                      [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
                      [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                      [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
                      [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

                      Here we have in verse 16 "A Shout" the Trump {i.e.trumpet}sounding at the return of our blessed Saviour from heaven.It is a comfort to know that our Lord will return after great Tribulation.Again be not deceived.

                      {2Thes.2:1,2,3,4,5}

                      [1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                      [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                      [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                      [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                      [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



                      Verse one is the Church`s gathering to Christ as we find in {Matt 24:31}same gathering,same trumpet {i.e.7th and last trumpet}the elect is the Church gathered {i.e.raptured}immediately after the tribulation.ST Paul clearly did not want the Thessalonians to be confused about the return of the Lord {v1}and verse 3 says what will happen before the coming of the Lord and that will be a falling away and the manof sin be revealed.Saints wake up St Paul says that day {i.e.the coming of Christ}will not happen until the man of sin take stage and this will be during the Tribulation,when he claims to be God in the temple.

                      St Paul you may step down.No we call St John to the witness stand your Honourable Lord Jesus Christ.


                      When Lazarus died Martha was not confused about the resurrection.Pre-Trib doctrine is confused about the last day.If I say I will see you friday,it will not be 7 years before friday.The last day means just that.When things are repeated over and over close together it is pretty important for you to realize it means what it says.

                      These verses pertain to when the 1st Resurrection will take place and not 7 years before.Last day means last day {i.e.after the tribulation}

                      John 6:39 At the last day.

                      John 6:40 At the last day.

                      John 6:44 At the last day.

                      John 6:54 At the last day.

                      John 11:24 At the last day.

                      Brother John you may step down.Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ we now call St Luke to the stand.

                      Brother Luke can you testify as to what will happen when our blessed Saviour returns at the last day?

                      {Acts 1:11}

                      this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

                      You may step down brother Luke.We now call John the Revelator,Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ.

                      Brother John the Revelator,what is your testimony to the coming of the Lord at the last day at the 1st resurrection?

                      {Revelation 1:7}

                      [7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



                      Brother John could you give us a second testimony of what happens after the tribulation at the first resurrection?

                      Brother John,there are those that say there will be a pre-tribulation rapture and the Church will escape at the 1st resurrection of the dead and the living will join the Lord in the air before this hell on earth begins.Could you please get this straight Brother John?

                      {Revelation 20:4-6}



                      [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                      [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
                      [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                      Brother John you may step down.Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ we establish our case on Your Word in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

                      Saints of God be not deceived the pre-trib will not happen and we must prepare our hearts with the Wordof God and our testimony,that is how we will overcome the coming tribulation under the coming persecution of the Church under the short reign of the Anti-Christ.Look in Revelation 4-6 the ones killed in the Tribulation under the Anti-Christ are in the 1st resurrection and that puts the Church in it.Be Not Deceived.I believe many while waiting on the Lord to pre-trib rapture them could be in danger of taking the mark that will damn the soul to the lake of fire.I praise God I am aware of what thus saith the Scripture.The pre-trib no-doubt paints a picture of two 1st resurrections which is not biblical.Period.

                      Revelation 12:11

                      And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their testimony,and they loved not their lives UNTO THE DEATH.

                      God help us.


                      Brother in Christ.

                      Steven.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dear Brother James 5:16, I would like to ask questions of your conclusion item by item if you dont't mind. If you do mind I'll ask no more.

                        Quoting James 5:16 - I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples, what "they would see for themselves". One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen. No Jesus was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

                        Question - First of all the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place in the middle of the tribulation according to Daniel 9:27, and you state that the disciples themselves would see these things for themselves; and they are to see great tribulation, and then have been dead for over 1900 years by this time. If they were not to be resurrected until after the tribulation, how do they see it?
                        Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by larry2 View Post
                          Dear Brother James 5:16, I would like to ask questions of your conclusion item by item if you dont't mind. If you do mind I'll ask no more.

                          Quoting James 5:16 - I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples, what "they would see for themselves". One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen. No Jesus was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

                          Question - First of all the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place in the middle of the tribulation according to Daniel 9:27, and you state that the disciples themselves would see these things for themselves; and they are to see great tribulation, and then have been dead for over 1900 years by this time. If they were not to be resurrected until after the tribulation, how do they see it?


                          Thank you for the question.


                          Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse were addressed to first century believers in a near/far prophecy. The near (and partial) fulfillment was in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem under the Roman general, Titus. The ultimate fulfillment will be at the "end of the age" when the sign of the end of the age, the extinguishing of the cosmic lights (Matt. 24:29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:11, 25; Rev. 6:12-13), will be witnessed by the entire world followed immediately with the sign of the coming of the Son of Man to rapture His own. This was the question the disciples were asking Christ about that prompted the discourse in the first place. Since Matthew's account of Christ's end-time instruction parallels that of Luke and Mark, and that it is evident in those accounts that Christ is talking to His disciples, we can and should conclude that the Olivet Discourse is intended for the church, believers in Christ.

                          God bless.

                          Steven.

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                          • #14
                            Dear Brother Steven, the statement Jesus made in Matthew 24:2 referred partially to the happenings in 71 AD I believe, but that didn't cover the questions the disciples asked.

                            1 - When shall these things be? Well in part that did happen in 71 AD, but they were asking of end times, and whatever type of temple will be there will also be absolutely destroyed. The disciples didn't understand the Church Age was in here; it was hidden from them, and they expected it to happen right away.

                            2 - What shall the sign of thy coming? Jesus goes on to say deception is the signs; antichrists, wars, false prophets, etc. and it is talking about the coming of the Son of man.

                            3- And of the end of the world? Of course this is the end of that particular age being described in Matthew Chapter 24 as we see in Matthew 24:34 we read "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." We know that all of Matthew Chapter 24 was not completed in the disciple's day, so they refer to the days of the great tribulation unless you are Preterist.

                            Thank you in Jesus' name
                            Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

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                            • #15
                              Well, bro Steven, all I have to say is....
                              whatever crush, asstrongashe (luke e leven), and all of the other post-tribbers have said.

                              And by the way, welcome to the board. Because of your position, you will be tried by Amils, pre-tribbers, and Romulus, whose beliefs I am not allowed to say. lol. Enjoy!

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