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  • All Israel shall be saved.

    Originally posted by wpm
    There is no such thing as corporate salvation. This is a modern theological invention. Whilst no one could deny that an all-powerful God would have any difficulty in performing that, Scripture does not present salvation as a national experience. It is very much an individual thing and is open to both Jews and Gentiles equally. Outside of Christ both are equally condemned; united to Christ through faith they are equally reconciled unto God. Romans 3:9-12 explains, “we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
    The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel. IN this thread, I want no references to the Millennial Kingdom or what some of us call the Davidic Kingdom. The are dealing with this era, before the Lord returns.

    My first question. This is to all amils. Do you believe as was quoted above?

    My next question to all. How does the quote above contradict this verse:

    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...

    ...and this one....

    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?
    Last edited by third hero; Oct 12th 2008, 08:40 PM. Reason: adding to the last question

  • #2
    Am I understanding correctly that a Premillennial Posttribulationist is already in agreement with you?
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
      Am I understanding correctly that a Premillennial Posttribulationist is already in agreement with you?
      If I am understanding this correctly, it would seem as though a post-trib premillennialist is actually in full agreement with me... Interesting

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel.

        And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...

        ...and this one....

        And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?

        quote modified.

        God has already poured out the spirit of grace upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and they did look upon Him who they had pierced and they did mourn. Acts chapter 2. (I can supply further scriptures)

        This all occurred in those early gospel times when it had been the case previously that mulititudes had believed Him and been healed of their diseases etc. but then later they became unsure of Him because of His prophetic message which was in variance with what they believed and what they had learnt in the synogogues, (same as now), for as so often happens mankind gets to thinkin and their reasonings become muddled by their religious past and they return to it for the sake of the peace, because of the persecution from friends and relatives.

        The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

        Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
        Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
        Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

        These could only have existed as such at the first coming of Christ for people who dwell in Israel today are not as so described for it is a gentile people and nation in the majority.




        As to Romans 11:26.

        The explanation given by Paul in Romans ch 11 is that the elect have received the promises and the rest were cut off from anything of the tree, so that in the future it is only the elect who will be saved at Christs return, where saved can mean, from the graves and from the living, and saved from destruction as described in Heb.19-

        Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
        Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

        Paul was quoting the OT verse when he wrote Romans 11:26---

        Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

        Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

        This verse does not say that all of Jacob will be saved. but only that those of Jacob who turn from transgression will be saved, and the first mention of "Zion" is not that of the Jews or any natural mountain but of Christ returning to raise the dead and transform the living members of Zion, the Heavenly City as most all NT descriptions of the first purpose of Christ is at His return.

        "and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob" encompasses far more people than is in the land of Judah which is the reason for the description of the great multitude of Rev.ch 7 and the using of the word "and" both here and in 2 Thes ch 1--

        2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

        Zion, the members of the Heavenly City, the Holy priesthood, are mentioned first in Rev.ch 7 and Zions mortal children for the (true)millennium, (the great multitude) also well described in Isaiah ch 49, are the two subjects of the "all israel who will be saved" but in both cases they all look for the real Christ in their turning from transgression BEFORE Christ returns, as it has been throughout times past in believing, obeying, and blessing the messengers sent by God to them--

        Mat 23:39 For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."


        Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

        Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
        Rev 14:7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

        Merton.
        One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

        A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Merton View Post
          God has already poured out the spirit of grace upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and they did look upon Him who they had pierced and they did mourn. Acts chapter 2. (I can supply further scriptures)

          This all occurred in those early gospel times when it had been the case previously that mulititudes had believed Him and been healed of their diseases etc. but then later they became unsure of Him because of His prophetic message which was in variance with what they believed and what they had learnt in the synogogues, (same as now), for as so often happens mankind gets to thinkin and their reasonings become muddled by their religious past and they return to it for the sake of the peace, because of the persecution from friends and relatives.

          The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

          Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
          Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
          Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

          These could only have existed as such at the first coming of Christ for people who dwell in Israel today are not as so described for it is a gentile people and nation in the majority.
          You are aware that verse 14 states that ALL of the remnant. Truly, that is not the case here, Merton. Not all of the remnant in either the 1st century, or today for that matter, has fulfilled this portiion of scripture. Otherwise, ALL Israel would BE saved, and not as it is today.


          As to Romans 11:26.

          The explanation given by Paul in Romans ch 11 is that the elect have received the promises and the rest were cut off from anything of the tree, so that in the future it is only the elect who will be saved at Christs return, where saved can mean, from the graves and from the living, and saved from destruction as described in Heb.19-

          Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
          Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

          Paul was quoting the OT verse when he wrote Romans 11:26---

          Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


          Wouldn't that be redundant, for Paul to got through all of that trouble to sdhow where his bloodline is at, only to say that the election, who is part of the natural branch that is currently on the vine, would be grafted back on again? In order to be rejoined, something has to be cut off. Truly, Paul was talking about ethnic Israel when he wrote this portion of scripture. No other interpretation makes sense.

          Isa 59:20
          And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
          This verse does not say that all of Jacob will be saved. but only that those of Jacob who turn from transgression will be saved, and the first mention of "Zion" is not that of the Jews or any natural mountain but of Christ returning to raise the dead and transform the living members of Zion, the Heavenly City as most all NT descriptions of the first purpose of Christ is at His return.

          "and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob" encompasses far more people than is in the land of Judah which is the reason for the description of the great multitude of Rev.ch 7 and the using of the word "and" both here and in 2 Thes ch 1--
          What part of Romans 11:23 do you not understand? Paul clearly states that if Israel continues not in unbelief, that the same God who cut them off will in fact restore them. With that thought in mind, he then reveals how long Israel will remain cut off, and then proclaims that all Israel shall be saved, quoting the very same scripture that you have here.

          Moreover, Romans 11 and Isaiah 59 are not the only places where it is prophesied that a deliverer would remove iniquity from Jacob. Take a gander at Daniel 9:24. One of the things that must happen is that Jerusalem, and the people of Daniel, will finish their transgressions, and God will make reconcilliation for their iniquity. If Paul was talking about Spiritual Israel, then that would make no sense at all, since those who are the election already have their iniquities reconciled.

          Moreover, Zechariah 12:14 states that ALL that remain shall mourn, meaning that all of the remnant that was mentioned in the previous verses will be saved, for their mourning will be tsigns of repentance.

          But thanks for trying though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hero

            What part of Romans 11:23 do you not understand? Paul clearly states that if Israel continues not in unbelief, that the same God who cut them off will in fact restore them.
            Rom 11:23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.


            Every branch of the tree is an individual branch, there is no specific branch or group of branches for a particular ethenticity which believes.

            Paul was talking about branches which were cut off the life of the tree under the OC as it was, but not any are, now or were, cut off the tree as it became and now is, who will be regrafted into the tree.

            There are no individuals alive today who were cut off the OC tree, and no cut off sinners of Israel in the graves who will be restored to God--

            Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see, and their back always bowing."


            Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
            Mat 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


            With that thought in mind, he then reveals how long Israel will remain cut off, and then proclaims that all Israel shall be saved, quoting the very same scripture that you have here.

            No. Paul reveals that any individual branches who were cut off the OC tree could be regrafted into the NC tree in their own lifetimes and many were, starting in Acts 2. and this continued for only some time.

            There is just no way that God would say that all Israel of the flesh would be saved, after His explaining that only the believers of the nation of OT Israel were to be saved. The only way that God could show that all Israel will be saved is to say that all Israel will be a saved nation with no sinners in it, and that nation according to the NT throughout, is a nation consisting of all ethenticities. ( Isaiah ch 56)

            Moreover, Romans 11 and Isaiah 59 are not the only places where it is prophesied that a deliverer would remove iniquity from Jacob. Take a gander at Daniel 9:24. One of the things that must happen is that Jerusalem, and the people of Daniel, will finish their transgressions, and God will make reconcilliation for their iniquity. If Paul was talking about Spiritual Israel, then that would make no sense at all, since those who are the election already have their iniquities reconciled.
            Show me by scripture where God will atone (make reconciliation) for the sins of His people again? and since when has God had two peoples, and since when have I not been one of Daniels people and one of the elect along with all Jews who believe into Christ.

            Yes there is a future atonement of a kind for the land, but that atonement is through shedding of the blood of the wicked.



            Moreover, Zechariah 12:14 states that ALL that remain shall mourn, meaning that all of the remnant that was mentioned in the previous verses will be saved, for their mourning will be tsigns of repentance.
            As I had said, the last verses of Zech 12 are fulfilled in the past, which is shown by the fact that Christ returns in the earlier verses where the governers of Judah and the people who believe, are supported against their enemies by the resurrected saints, which would not be the case if they were yet to repent.


            ( Paul was not saved by Christ appearing to him, but begun by Pauls repenting while on his journey at the replaying in his mind of the message of Christ and the manner of the saints in their sufferings and deaths of those who preached it, BEFORE Christ appeared to Saul, and God has not changed the order and rules of righteousness.)


            Merton
            One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

            A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel. IN this thread, I want no references to the Millennial Kingdom or what some of us call the Davidic Kingdom. The are dealing with this era, before the Lord returns.

              My first question. This is to all amils. Do you believe as was quoted above?

              My next question to all. How does the quote above contradict this verse:

              And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...

              ...and this one....

              And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?
              One angle that needs to be explored is the phrase "just as it is written." If the wpm "natural/true" construct is correct, we should expect to find an OT passage of scripture somewhere in which God announces that he will assemble a multiethnic group of people and forgive them etc. I'm not aware of an OT passage like that.

              In addition, we need to deal with the fact that the prophecy Paul cites actually mentions Jacob by name, which is what Quietdove attempted to point out in another thread, when her post was cut short. As far as I know, the NT never spiritualizes the term Jacob and neither does wpm have the term "Spiritual Jacob" on his list of "spiritual" references to believers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                One angle that needs to be explored is the phrase "just as it is written." If the wpm "natural/true" construct is correct, we should expect to find an OT passage of scripture somewhere in which God announces that he will assemble a multiethnic group of people and forgive them etc. I'm not aware of an OT passage like that.

                In addition, we need to deal with the fact that the prophecy Paul cites actually mentions Jacob by name, which is what Quietdove attempted to point out in another thread, when her post was cut short. As far as I know, the NT never spiritualizes the term Jacob and neither does wpm have the term "Spiritual Jacob" on his list of "spiritual" references to believers.

                Hi Roger,

                OT Israel was a multiethnic nation.

                Do you suppose that the Jews from every nation under heaven of Acts 2, were all ethnic Jews?

                What about Uriah?

                Also do you suppose that none of the descendants of Ishmael and of Esau ever became true Jews? and even if one wanted to call them proselites, the Bible does not continue to call their descendants that, who believed.

                By your view all of the descendants of Ishmael are not counted as any of the seed of Christ because of their flesh, and is the reason today that America blesses Israel as being the people of God and helped them disposses the Arabs from their land and homes because they say, and most American evangelical churches believe, that the Israel nation in the middle east is a work of God, when it was said by God that His work would not be by might nor by power but by My Spirit, in Zech.

                Whereas the nation in the middle east is formed for self, by force, and for money.

                Using Jacob literally means that there is no one except Jacob who will go through troubles in the endtimes.

                This is obviously incorrect so that the proper way to use the OT types is to regard Jacob as being the carnal believer who needs to become spiritually minded, and the NT verifies this by saying that we all must enter the Kingdom of God through many tribulations.

                It should be noted (again) that Jacob was a believer, while Israel of the flesh which you expect God to save through tribulations, are not.

                How dare unbelievers use the name of faithful Israel for their nation, and expect that God will bless them because some few of them are related to Abraham by the flesh or have some relationship in their religion to that which even refused to acknowledge Christ. Read the gospel of Matthew.

                The RCC does the same thing in calling itself the church. Why not believe them also? It is an old trick, even the Mormans call themselves the last day saints.


                The name which God gave the unbelieving Jew was NOT Israel, for He called them after their flesh, that is the spirit of it--



                Eze 16:45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that loatheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which loathed their husbands and their children: your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite.


                It just happens that when you read "Israel" then you apply your view of whom it refers to automatically which does not line up with the NT teachings of who God's Israel is, nor with the account in Rev.ch 7 of who the great multitude are, who are before the Throne.

                I challenge you to show another people described in the NT who are bought to the Throne of God through the sealed priesthood of believers at the end of this age, than the multi ethnetical great multitude of Rev.ch 7.

                We have no choice but to accept what God says is His people in His own Words through Christ and His apostles.-

                1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, asunto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
                1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
                1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe heis precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
                1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, eventothem which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
                1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
                1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.



                Merton.
                One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

                A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by third hero View Post
                  My first question. This is to all amils. Do you believe as was quoted above?
                  I believe salvation is individual; and that the "All Israel" that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11:26 is defined earlier by the "All Israel" passage of Romans 9:6 and the leading up verses of 11:17 which show us that those who are being saved are both "the natural and the wild branches" partaking together of the fatness of the tree. Therefore, individual salvation ends when the Deliverer comes from Zion, and "all Israel", both the natural and wild branches graffed in by faith; will have compelted.

                  Other biblical writer outside of Romans 11 call this time the 'end of the harvest'; and depict it as harvesting grain or grapes or fish.

                  I don't see the intent of the phrase "All Israel" to be a group-racial salvation event at the moment of Christ's return; but rather, a completion of the salvation of "All Israel" that began centuries ago, and concludes at Christ's return; and has within in adopted-in "wild branches" by faith.


                  Originally posted by third hero View Post
                  My next question to all. How does the quote above contradict this verse:

                  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...
                  Romans 11, from my interpretation, doesn't contradict Zechariah 12:10.
                  Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled in the first-century as the Apostles John and Peter taught us here:

                  Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. "

                  Acts 2:5,17 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"

                  John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) "

                  and

                  John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."




                  The only relationship between Zechariah 12:10 and Romans 11:26; is that Zechariah 12:10 prophesies Christ's Crucifixion and the soon coming of the Holy Spirit to bring "the start" of the salvation harvest that would be completed at the 2nd Coming as described in Romans 11:26.

                  So you have bookend prophesies.
                  Zechariah 12:10 showing the start of the harvest of the Holy Spirit following the crucifixion of Christ; and Romans 11:26 which shows the conclusion of the harvest of the Holy Spirit climaxing in the Return of the Lord when all will be saved who've faithfully been graffed into the fatness of the root of the tree.



                  Originally posted by third hero View Post

                  ...and this one....

                  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?
                  Again no conflict; this verse depicts the conclusion and completion of all who will be saved during the New Testament Harvest which ends at the Return of the Lord. (aka the Deliverer who comes out of Zion, returning from "Heavenly Zion" to be exact).

                  It seems the difference in our understanding of Romans 11, is not an mill issue difference at all; but that you see it as being a group salvation event that occurs at one single point in time; and I see it as being an individual salvation event that occurs spanning the NT era; and concluding when the Lord Returns and the Deliverer comes out of Zion. If no Israelites were being saved in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd.....18th, 19th, 20th, 21st centuries A.D.; I'd probably hold to your interpretation....however, since God has individually been saving them out of every century since the 1st century; I can't but see it as a process of individual salvation; not a final one-time group salvation event.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Merton View Post
                    We have no choice but to accept what God says is His people in His own Words through Christ and His apostles.
                    Merton, you are taking us over the same road we've traveled already. Try addressing the new issues discussed in my post. At the end of Romans 11, where Paul announces that all Israel shall be saved, he cites a verse from the OT in which God promises to save "Jacob."

                    It just happens that when you read "Israel" then you apply your view of whom it refers to automatically which does not line up with the NT teachings of who God's Israel is, nor with the account in Rev.ch 7 of who the great multitude are, who are before the Throne.
                    Since I disagree with your perspective, you can't expect to make your points as if your view is taken as a given. I don't agree wpm has understood the NT teaching concerning the identity of Israel. And we are discussing the end of Romans 11 to highlight another difference between his view and the NT view.

                    The name which God gave the unbelieving Jew was NOT Israel, for He called them after their flesh, that is the spirit of it--
                    I have no idea what you are talking about here. The way I see it, the Bible uses the term Israel to refer to a nation in the Middle East, populated by a people group God brought out of Egypt. It has always meant that. The idea that Paul has somehow spiritualized the term is open to debate, not a granted fact.

                    How dare unbelievers use the name of faithful Israel for their nation, and expect that God will bless them because some few of them are related to Abraham by the flesh or have some relationship in their religion to that which even refused to acknowledge Christ. Read the gospel of Matthew.
                    I have read the gospel of Matthew. In that Gospel we read the words of Jesus who called down woe on the Pharisees, mourned over Jerusalem, and announced that God would bring desolation to it. In Luke's account he describes it this way,

                    Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

                    Notice how Jesus contrasts "this people" against "the Gentiles." To me this speaks of a people not otherwise known as the Gentiles who live in and around Jerusalem and are not allowed to travel far on the Sabbath. That does not describe me or other Christians as far as I know.

                    It should be noted (again) that Jacob was a believer, while Israel of the flesh which you expect God to save through tribulations, are not.
                    Not now, but then. God does not judge by what he sees. And his son is known for the same quality. And so we should follow their example. The Israel of today is not going to be the Israel of tomorrow, not based on what I see now, but based on a promise God made for their future.

                    This is obviously incorrect so that the proper way to use the OT types is to regard Jacob as being the carnal believer who needs to become spiritually minded, and the NT verifies this by saying that we all must enter the Kingdom of God through many tribulations.
                    I don't subscribe to the weird hermeneutic called "typology." I think God prophetically referred to a certain people group by name, i.e. Jacob, because he wanted to indicate his physical descendants.

                    By your view all of the descendants of Ishmael are not counted as any of the seed of Christ because of their flesh, and is the reason today that America blesses Israel as being the people of God and helped them disposses the Arabs from their land and homes because they say, and most American evangelical churches believe, that the Israel nation in the middle east is a work of God, when it was said by God that His work would not be by might nor by power but by My Spirit, in Zech.
                    I believe this goes way beyond the text at hand and delves into politics and current events, which is not the topic of discussion here.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by third hero View Post
                      The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel. IN this thread, I want no references to the Millennial Kingdom or what some of us call the Davidic Kingdom. The are dealing with this era, before the Lord returns.

                      My first question. This is to all amils. Do you believe as was quoted above?
                      I do

                      My next question to all. How does the quote above contradict this verse:

                      And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...
                      Not at all. We've shown you that Zechariah 12:10 is quoted in John 19:37. I've also shown that the kind of mourning described in Zechariah 12:10-14 is not a mourning of repentance but rather a type of mourning of sadness over someone's death. That is clear when you look at the context because it is compared to "the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon." which was a mourning of sadness over the death of Josiah and had nothing to do with people repenting of anything.

                      The Spirit of grace and supplications was poured out upon the house of David many years ago beginning on the day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2.

                      ...and this one....

                      And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?
                      Salvation is not based on one's nationality. Period. Several passages teach that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ and that all are saved the same way: through putting their faith in Christ. The Deliverer already came to turn away ungodliness from Jacob by way of the new covenant that takes away their sins by the blood of Christ. This is described here:

                      Acts 3
                      25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

                      In terms of salvation, Paul described who spiritual Israel was in Romans 9:6-8 and he explained that being a natural descendant of the nation of Israel had nothing to do with it. Instead, it has to do with being children of the promise, of the seed of Isaac. Being of the seed of Isaac means that one is a citizen of the heavenly Jerusalem, is born of the Spirit and is a child of the promise.

                      Galatians 4
                      26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
                      27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
                      28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
                      29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
                      30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
                      31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

                      Both Jew and Gentile believers meet the criteria given for being part of spiritual Israel because we are all spiritual descendants of Isaac, being born of the Spirit and we are all, as Isaac was, children of the promise.

                      Galatians 3
                      26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
                      27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
                      28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                      29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

                      Clearly, it is faith in Christ and belonging to Christ that determines who is saved and a member of the spiritual/heavenly Israel and Jerusalem. One's nationality is not a factor as "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ. In order to believe that everyone in the nation of Israel will one day be saved it would have to be that they all just happened to choose to put their faith and trust in Christ at the same time. By saying that God will one day ensure that this happens so that they are all saved would be making God out to be a respecter of persons who makes one's nationality a factor in salvation. But scripture repeatedly says He is not a respecter of persons.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by third hero View Post
                        The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel. IN this thread, I want no references to the Millennial Kingdom or what some of us call the Davidic Kingdom. The are dealing with this era, before the Lord returns.

                        My first question. This is to all amils. Do you believe as was quoted above?

                        My next question to all. How does the quote above contradict this verse:

                        And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. -Zechariah 12:10...

                        ...and this one....

                        And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: -Romans 11:26?
                        Zechariah 12:10

                        Zechariah 12:10 has been fully fulfilled at and through the cross. You should read John 19:30-37 that confirms that: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture (Zechariah 12:10) saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

                        All Israel

                        I believe the Premil premise of corporate salvation in regard to Romans 11 contradicts Paul's earlier definition of "all Israel" in Romans 9. It is therefore mistaken to assume “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 must relate to the full nation of natural Israel. Paul demolishes this faulty notion whilst specifically referring to this same party (“all Israel”) in Romans 9:6, stating, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” I feel this statement alone nullifies the Premil hypothesis. Contrary to what it says, we cannot overlook the fact that Israel “according to the flesh” is not true Israel. This is repeated time after time in the New Testament.

                        The Deliverer has already come out of Zion and the process by which He is turning ungodliness away from Jacob has been ongoing since the Cross. Paul presents himself and his fellow first-century Jewish believers as being included in the fulfilment of this prophecy. The wording of this Old Testament passage assists us further in our enquiry, again limiting the term “all Israel” to just “them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” Repentance is the essential condition for natural Israelites entering into covenant with Israel’s redeemer. Therefore, only those natural Israelites that repent of their sin by coming to Christ are included within the hallowed description of “all Israel.” Isaiah 45:17 similarly says, “Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” Those that have bowed the knee to Christ in repentance are recognised as being “in the Lord” and therefore belong to the true Israel.

                        It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, to what extent numerically the Jews in these days end will come through for Christ, however, whether this reading indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Every option is possible; however, only one will happen. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd, who says in John 10:27-28, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

                        The one thing that we assuredly do know is that those that have been ordained unto eternal salvation from among natural Israel will ultimately come to the Saviour. This long-debated passage does however seem to relate specifically to the Israel of God from amongst the physical nation of Israel, as is the overall context of Romans 9-11. That natural remnant of Jews will therefore come to Christ through the blood of the cross and enter into the Church of Jesus Christ, His only body on this earth, in this Gospel age – the only age in which the Jew can come to Christ. The condition expressly being “them that turn from transgression in Jacob” – those who come to Christ in faith.
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Why does everyone insist on going round and round in circles about the same old same old - are you trying to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, or something?

                          One thing is for sure - what will be will be - because what God has pre-ordained, he has pre-ordained. So when we disagree, we know that after all, we can just wait and see - see?

                          "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

                          And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

                          Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
                          (Mat.23: 8-10)

                          AND

                          "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

                          By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
                          (Joh.13: 34-35)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by third hero View Post
                            The intent of this thread is to prove or disprove that God is going to save the nation of Israel. IN this thread, I want no references to the Millennial Kingdom or what some of us call the Davidic Kingdom. The are dealing with this era, before the Lord returns.
                            But the Millennium is the fulfillment of promise.
                            That's like having a race but disallowing anyone to cross the finish line.

                            What can one conclude?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wpm View Post
                              Zechariah 12:10

                              Zechariah 12:10 has been fully fulfilled at and through the cross. You should read John 19:30-37 that confirms that: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture (Zechariah 12:10) saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

                              All Israel

                              I believe the Premil premise of corporate salvation in regard to Romans 11 contradicts Paul's earlier definition of "all Israel" in Romans 9. It is therefore mistaken to assume “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 must relate to the full nation of natural Israel. Paul demolishes this faulty notion whilst specifically referring to this same party (“all Israel”) in Romans 9:6, stating, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” I feel this statement alone nullifies the Premil hypothesis. Contrary to what it says, we cannot overlook the fact that Israel “according to the flesh” is not true Israel. This is repeated time after time in the New Testament.


                              So, who was Paul talking about when he wrote this question?

                              I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1

                              Is the "Israelite" mentioned in this verse the Gentile with the heart of a Jew, or an actual, ethnic descendent of the one whose name was changed to Israel after a wrestling match?

                              The Deliverer has already come out of Zion and the process by which He is turning ungodliness away from Jacob has been ongoing since the Cross. Paul presents himself and his fellow first-century Jewish believers as being included in the fulfilment of this prophecy.
                              The wording of this Old Testament passage assists us further in our enquiry, again limiting the term “all Israel” to just “them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” Repentance is the essential condition for natural Israelites entering into covenant with Israel’s redeemer. Therefore, only those natural Israelites that repent of their sin by coming to Christ are included within the hallowed description of “all Israel.” Isaiah 45:17 similarly says, “Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” Those that have bowed the knee to Christ in repentance are recognised as being “in the Lord” and therefore belong to the true Israel.


                              If a Deliverer has already turned iniquity away from Jacob, then tell me, why did Paul write this verse in a future tense, although Lord Jesus was already back in heaven?

                              And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

                              It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, to what extent numerically the Jews in these days end will come through for Christ, however, whether this reading indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Every option is possible; however, only one will happen. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd, who says in John 10:27-28,
                              “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”


                              You know, Quiet Dove asked you a question, and now I am goingto repeat it. If God in His might deem it a worthy cause to save one particular nation, then how is that a bad thing? If God causews Israel to repent of their sins before the Lord returns, how is that Him not following His own will? Is it not the same God that said in both the OT and the NT that He wil have mercy on whoever He will have mercy on, and the same thing for judgment?

                              It seems as though you think that by God bringing about the salvation of ethnic Israel, He is somehow breaking one of His promises. Is that the case, and show me through scripture how you arrived at that conclusion.

                              The one thing that we assuredly do know is that those that have been ordained unto eternal salvation from among natural Israel will ultimately come to the Saviour. This long-debated passage does however seem to relate specifically to the Israel of God from amongst the physical nation of Israel, as is the overall context of Romans 9-11. That natural remnant of Jews will therefore come to Christ through the blood of the cross and enter into the Church of Jesus Christ, His only body on this earth, in this Gospel age – the only age in which the Jew can come to Christ. The condition expressly being “them that turn from transgression in Jacob” – those who come to Christ in faith.
                              wpm, it seems to me that those posts that I had left for you to read in another thread, that you have not read them, because it is my opinion that Israel shall be saved, and it shall happen BEFORE the Lord returns. I have consistently said that over at least four threads now. Your rebuttle seems as though you insinuate that I am saying that Israel will be saved and that they will have a revival of their old covenant when the Lord returns, something that I have never advocated. I have said, and coninue to say, that the Lord will save Israel, and the sign of that salvation is the Abomination that causes Desolation. Now I know that is not in your timeline, but it is in mine.

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