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  • US Government Default Required Before Tribulation?

    OK, this is only a theory, not something I'm dogmatic about. Yet.

    We've all been watching our economy teeter on the edge of disaster the last several days, and the roller coaster ride might still not be over. For the moment, however, it appears that the situation might have somewhat stabilized. Sort of. Maybe.

    Anyway, it occurs to me that the only reason the economy is not in a tailspin at this very moment (which I will grant could change at any time) is because the people are willing to gamble on the ability and financial muscle (such as it is) of the US Government to shore things up. But take away the government's ability to do that, or even merely the people's belief in that ability, and we've got a full blown disaster on our hands.

    So what about the Tribulation? Most people here would agree that the Tribulation is going to involve a major restructuring of our society. Most people here would also probably agree that nobody likes change. As long as it's possible to muddle through the day without stirring up the soup, most people will just let the sleeping dog lie.

    The only way people will embrace true "change" is if they are no longer able to muddle through the day. So what would create the kind of environment where people are willing to embrace the sweeping changes that are predicted for the Tribulation?

    Well, if the Tribulation is going to be anytime soon like most people here are fond of proclaiming, the most fragile aspect of our society would seem to be the economy. So we need to figure out what's going to yank out the stick that's holding up the corner of the economic house of cards.

    Since we've just seen demonstrated for us in the last few days the ability of the people's perception of the government's ability to come riding to the rescue to stabilize things, it seems to me that the thing that would bring it all crashing down is a belief (whether real or not) that the government is no longer capable of riding to the rescue.

    So, to finally get to the point, it appears to me that the key that is going to open up western society to the sweeping changes that will occur in the Tribulation will be the financial meltdown that will occur after our government experiences a financial problem of some sort, to the point where business as usual is no longer possible.

    We've seen that people are willing to mortgage their children's future by piling on federal debt to the point that, after the federal bailout, each of us is about to be in debt roughly to the tune of well over $100,000.00 through our government (I'm not rock solid on that figure, but suffice to say it's a lot), so piling up a lot of debt is not going to bring things to a skreeching halt just yet.

    So for you financiers and economists out there, what do you see as the most likely thing that would bring the government's perceived invulnerability crashing down? Feel free to speculate about some massive expense like a disaster or a war or a nuclear terror strike. I know we obviously can't predict the future with any certainty until that seven-year clock starts ticking down, but I'm interested in hypotheticals. So give me some hypotheticals. I'm all ears.

    What would reduce the US Government to the point of not being a reliable source of economic rescue?
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  • #2
    Interesting idea, but don't forget that the government could default in two ways.

    An explicit default is the most obvious, namely for the government to simply tell its creditors that it can't pay and they should form an orderly line for whatever they can get. Personally I'd rate the chances of this happening at close to 0%.

    An implicit default would involve the government devaluing the currency so that it pays its debts in full, but in currency that ceases to have much actual buying power. Technically it has paid its obligations in full, but practically speaking it's only done so by bending the rules. Of course in the process the currency collapses so its citizens lose their buying power in the process. I'd rate the chances of this happening within my lifetime at close to 100%. If the buying power of the people disappears then prices of basic items in the shops skyrockets. Since you've used the example of the US, how long would it take the American people to become more than a little unhappy if a loaf of bread rose to $10, then $20, then $50, then $100, and then there just weren't any to buy at any price?

    Honestly, even before this latest fiasco I couldn't see any way that the US government was going to repay that $10,000,000,000,000 without cheating somewhere along the way. Throw in an ageing population and sooner or later the younger generations are going to refuse to work longer and longer hours to fund welfare schemes while having less and less fruit of their own labours. Ultimately our current model is broken, and I personally can't see any way of fixing it without a huge number of people suffering consequences they would vote against.
    24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
    I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
    I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

    ---

    1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



    Comment


    • #3
      Remember as you read this, it is but one man’s opinion and only that. There are others that are a LOT more intelligent than I am and have way more insight than I do. This is a can of worms that has already been opened and there is no bottom to the possibilities of what could set the US economy into a full fledge tail spin.

      I agree, that when the people see the government has seemingly lost control, there will be wide spread panic, ultimately resulting in anarchy. I have read several scenarios in the past year or so some of which are VERY possible and easily achieved. There will be little argument, I guess, that radical Islam is an enemy of the US (the west), Israel, and Christianity. They have proven this by repeated attacks on all 3 people groups and I don’t believe they intend to stop or let up until their ultimate goal is achieved.

      Imagine the placement of, let’s say, 5 suitcase bombs in different, medium size cities across the US. It would send a shock wave of fear across the country in a matter of hours. People would be scared to come out of their homes, go to work, take their kids to school or go to the grocery store. Though very simple and easily done, it would rock the US economy.

      Another scenario, Israel is attacked by an Islamic state (Iran, Syria, or the Palestinians) and they retaliate instantly with a full military attack. The US would claim they did not do it diplomatically and would threaten the loss of support if they did not end the military campaign. Russia would more than likely step in and give support to the Islamic state, claiming the retaliation was unwarranted. This would leave the US only 2 options get involved and support Israel or wash its hands of the issue completely, leaving Israel to fend for itself.

      The UAE decides that the US dollar no longer has enough power to be used to buy and sell their oil (oil is bought and sold with the US dollar). They switch to a more stable currency like the Euro. This would also result in the appearance of the loss of control and power of the US and the economy heads south.

      Another likely situation is the upcoming election. The different scenarios here are many and could take several pages to list.

      In my opinion, the US as a whole is living on a razors edge and any number of things could send stock market crashing, inflation soaring, and the inability of people to obtain the basic necessities. I hate to beat a dead horse, but look at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. There was a complete and total breakdown of government, law enforcement, in the ability of people to get things as simple as a glass of water. There were armed gangs freely roaming the streets and lawlessness was rampant. Law enforcement, fire, EMS, and other government officials abandoned their responsibilities to take care of their own families. It still took a week to even regain some semblance of control and this was just one city. We have become so dependent on the things of this world that we would be lost without cell phones, computers, grocery stores and debit/credit cards. We have always live with the assurance that if times get tough and I fall flat on my face, the government will pick me up, brush me off and say “Everything is going to be OK”. That mind set, I’m afraid, is coming to an end. We as a people are starting to lose confidence in our elected officials and their ability to make decisions based on the best interest of the people and not their own pursuit of money and power.

      Weather this is the beginning of the end, I don’t know, but I do believe we are on a runaway train that has know breaks and has just blown by the “bridge out ahead” sign. We are looking at some hard times ahead and we all must be prepared for them, both spiritually and physically.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think (my own opinion, I'm not an economist) that the current upswing in the market is going to get everyone all settled back down and lulled into thinking that all is OK -only for the market to suffer a huge downfall within the next month or so.

        I think that the pending election is influencing things in some way right now. A lot of folks are buying into both parties claim to be able to "fix" things and that is giving a false sense of hope. I am curious as to how the Dow will react to WHO is elected. Will it go up if Obama wins and down if McCain wins - or vice versa?

        I agree it will take a real shakeup, however, for things to be in place for the tribulation to begin.

        Comment


        • #5
          People losing confidence is the kind of thing that can happen extremely quickly. Especially in towns and cities a lot of people don't keep a great deal of food or cash on hand, because they can always stop by and pick some up at short notice. As a city dweller if I need cash there are six banks within walking distance, and if I need food there are at least a dozen places I can buy food within walking distance.

          The trouble is that if anything happens to the banking system and I can't use my credit or debit cards, then I need cash to buy food. With no cash on hand I can't buy food. A sense of panic can see shelves emptied very quickly, as a high population density means there are more people chasing the same resources. Then of course you have the issue of a very dense population who are hungry, and potentially angry. At that point things could get very ugly, very quickly.
          24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
          I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
          I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

          ---

          1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
          1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tango View Post
            Interesting idea, but don't forget that the government could default in two ways.

            An explicit default is the most obvious, namely for the government to simply tell its creditors that it can't pay and they should form an orderly line for whatever they can get. Personally I'd rate the chances of this happening at close to 0%.

            An implicit default would involve the government devaluing the currency so that it pays its debts in full, but in currency that ceases to have much actual buying power. Technically it has paid its obligations in full, but practically speaking it's only done so by bending the rules. Of course in the process the currency collapses so its citizens lose their buying power in the process. I'd rate the chances of this happening within my lifetime at close to 100%. If the buying power of the people disappears then prices of basic items in the shops skyrockets. Since you've used the example of the US, how long would it take the American people to become more than a little unhappy if a loaf of bread rose to $10, then $20, then $50, then $100, and then there just weren't any to buy at any price?

            Honestly, even before this latest fiasco I couldn't see any way that the US government was going to repay that $10,000,000,000,000 without cheating somewhere along the way. Throw in an ageing population and sooner or later the younger generations are going to refuse to work longer and longer hours to fund welfare schemes while having less and less fruit of their own labours. Ultimately our current model is broken, and I personally can't see any way of fixing it without a huge number of people suffering consequences they would vote against.
            This makes total sense. What's scary is that this is precisely what Germany did to make it's "reparations" payments after World War One with the same result that you have mentioned, that nobody could even afford a loaf of bread. There was one man who came along who promised to fix everything, and by golly he did. Temporarily, at least. His name? Adolf Hitler.

            I wouldn't be surprised if the next one is the Antichrist.
            ----------------------------------------------
            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
              This makes total sense. What's scary is that this is precisely what Germany did to make it's "reparations" payments after World War One with the same result that you have mentioned, that nobody could even afford a loaf of bread. There was one man who came along who promised to fix everything, and by golly he did. Temporarily, at least. His name? Adolf Hitler.

              I wouldn't be surprised if the next one is the Antichrist.
              I agree.
              It was the last great depression that led to the rise of Adolph Hitler, and World War II.

              IMHO, I see the economic crisis, as an induced shift of power.
              From small investor to large investor. From banks to governments. From governments to? a new world order?
              The governments are having to borrow the bail out money. So who are they going to borrow it from?

              The trillions of lost dollars and euro's etc: must go somewhere, but where?
              I cannot see it going under floorboards or mattresses.

              The noose tightens.

              Get everyone into debt, way over their heads, and then pull the plug.

              No money and no food (food crisis) could lead to severe rationings, and folk may have to take a mark so that it can be monitored.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                IMHO, I see the economic crisis, as an induced shift of power.
                From small investor to large investor. From banks to governments. From governments to? a new world order?
                Announced: September 11, 1991 - George H W Bush

                Just google it

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi,




                  The three seals lead up to the fouth seal where power over and in government changes hands from christian backing (though fallen) to the style of government now in Russia and in China, where everything is under state control and is not really a free market economy as led to believe in the west.

                  Many in the west gloated when Communism fell, well so has capitalism, and Putin has led in example of where the west is now heading to also.

                  The debt of America places them under the control of the lenders, but the government of America is still a party to the system of lenders set up by all major nations. Therefore the revolt against christian america comes also from its own government which is after all been under way in principle for decades as the churches have been forsaking the way of Christ as well . (The churches of state and federal power that is.)

                  Russia is in bed with Germany and the EU, is friends with China, and not so in conflict with the Moslem who was originally really a mortal enemy of Catholicism now so inseparable from most of christianity.

                  India is in bed with Europe and at peace with China, and America is making sure that they are their friends.

                  India is buring churches, China allows state run churches, Russian churches are under the thumb of the state, the media also in those places, and it is not realized that the western media is not telling the people the whole truth on most things either, except for one or two.

                  The troubles of the third seal are underway now and deepening but the statement made in it is to not hurt the oil or the wine and I do not think it is a reference to natural substances, but the inflation of prices of natural substances is. (think Zimbabwe)

                  Psa 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.



                  Of course there is always plenty of the natural supply for those who comply with every dictate of the present/coming system, and the price for having part of it will be too heavy a price to pay for some.


                  Merton.
                  One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

                  A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    US financial crisis worse than 1929

                    The US is on a cliff of financial disaster. World-wide economical crisis would give the Antichrist an opportunity to step forward and offer his "solutions"

                    The outstanding debt in the US is at the moment 270% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP). In 1929 it was 150%

                    (Translated from a newspaper)

                    my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

                    If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

                    Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                      IMHO, I see the economic crisis, as an induced shift of power.
                      From small investor to large investor. From banks to governments. From governments to? a new world order?
                      The governments are having to borrow the bail out money. So who are they going to borrow it from?

                      The trillions of lost dollars and euro's etc: must go somewhere, but where?
                      I cannot see it going under floorboards or mattresses.

                      Get everyone into debt, way over their heads, and then pull the plug.

                      No money and no food (food crisis) could lead to severe rationings, and folk may have to take a mark so that it can be monitored.
                      Money certainly shifts from the poor to the rich, from the people to corporations, from corporations to governments, and, perhaps most crucially, from the west to the east.

                      I've said for years now that when people are indebted they are slaves to just about anyone. Today people aren't physically chained to their desks but many might as well be. In some cases that's simply because people struggle to get by at all, but in a lot of cases it's because they have chosen to overextend and buy a big house, a fast car, foreign holidays etc on credit, and are enslaved while they repay it.

                      What will be interesting is to see how long it takes for countries to refuse to continue to lend money to western governments. The US, for example, runs a deficit of some $2,000,000,000 every single day. What happens to public spending if they can't borrow that kind of cash any more?
                      24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
                      I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
                      I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

                      ---

                      1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
                      1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tango View Post
                        I've said for years now that when people are indebted they are slaves to just about anyone.

                        Perhaps John McCain said it best; "My Fellow Prisoners..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SpokenFor View Post
                          I think (my own opinion, I'm not an economist) that the current upswing in the market is going to get everyone all settled back down and lulled into thinking that all is OK -only for the market to suffer a huge downfall within the next month or so.
                          Ding ding ding! Completely a guess also, but I can totally see this happening and have felt it for awhile now. However, not sure on the timeline of a few months. It could be days or even years for all we know.

                          Time will tell

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't recall where I read it, but I think the dollar and currencies at large will be devalued. The Magog/Gog War where they come to take a spoil of Gold and Silver, probably can't happen until such time as Gold and Silver are actually that valuable again. This may mean a one world currency pegged to Gold and Silver prices, or individual currencies. I does look grim though. Rejoice for the hope that is in us though!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here. Let me tell you all a story. A stroy of a country that has stood for everything that is great in the world. A story of the country that held steadfast to the concepts of being the peacekeepers in this world. The story of the USA.

                              In this story, the US is the stumblingblock, the boulder that stood in the way of the world coming to their god. The USA, with all of their "morals" and such, imposing Christian values on the rest of the world, while not perfect themselves, pushing the world to be just like them. The USA, and the God of the USA, has to be removed, or at least devastated, in order for the world to come to their god.

                              However, the USA will not go down without a fight, ands those who support the USA and their values are declared enemies of the world, and thus events happen in which the USA loses it's influence in the world's economy, the world's view of morality. The USA is on a downward spiral.

                              However, the USA will not go down without a fight. The leaders of the world want their god, Allah, to be proclaimed as the God of all the universe, and the spearhead, Iran, focuses her sword on te USA. However, even as the USA is spiralling down economic disaster, th USA is still too powerful to topple, at least, in the eyes of the little powermad Iranians. The Russians see the "little conqueror" as an opportune partner, that can aid in the fall of the USA, and thus joins Iran as her ally. China, another USA hater, while gaining power of her own, see the thread that Iran can pose on the USA without even attacking that nation at all, and thus joins her as another ally. What fdo both Russia and China see that the USA does not?

                              Israel.

                              If Iran attacks Israel, Israel will respond. The USA, struggling with their economy spirallling out of control, will still defend Israel, but will initially be limited in her response. When Iran presses Israel, her allies will cry foul, and jump into the Irani-Israeli conflict. Israel will be pressed, and the USA will have no choice but to either defend her ally, or else fall altogether.

                              But there's more to the story. Israel will have allies, but from the unlikeliest of places. Like Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is in power because of thge USA, and if US support leaves her, the Saudis will be nothing more than gypsies with oil wells, because Iran would take over as the world's leading supplier of oil. Jordan, whose king is suppose to be related to their prophet Mohammad, will have to support Israel, because if Iran defeats Israel, then the Shia sect will take over all of that region, which means that the Jordanian King would lose his power. Syria, on the other hand, would aid Iran, since Iran has been aiding their quest to take over Lebanon anyway. Lebanon will have to side with Israel because if Iran defeats Israel, then so will Syria defeat Lebanon, and that country would be finished.

                              Mind you, the economies of the entire world are crumbling, with no end in sight. The Europeans, in the beginning, will wait to see if the Irani quest to topple the USA succeeds, and thus will side with the winner. However, the war spills outside of the Middle East, and Europe is engulfed in war, as radical Islamists finally attack Europe for the chance to take it over completely.

                              Meanwhile, in the USA, the beleagured US Corps fight not only the war in the Middle east, but they have to contend with a religious war, which ends up being much more than just a Islam versus Christianity war. Anarchy spreads as the combination of the economic depressions, endless wars, and the complete loss of confidence in the government brings the entire nation, no the entire world to the brink of total destruction.

                              And then, a "savior" arises. A strong soul with the power of a god, who figures out a way to end all of the wars, and bring about a peace that rivaled the PAx Romana of old. All of the devastated nations allign with this one man, and a new world order comes about, the order of Babylon.

                              This is what I call Big Bang, and the result of this massive war would result in the advent of the Beast. Sounds rediculous right? Well, look at the stock market. Not so rediculous now is it?

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