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  • Why Rapture?

    Prelude to the Rapture

    Luke 21
    24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    Romans 11
    25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


    Daniel 9:
    24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    Daniel 11: 36 And the king (antichrist) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


    Isaiah 28: 22. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


    2 Peter 3:
    3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


    The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

    Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

    Who are those in Christ?
    1 Corinthians 15
    1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not.

    In fact we have more than just the four Gospels:

    Acts 1
    2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
    3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    1 Corinthians 15
    5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    6. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    7. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    8. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
    9. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    Why would all these people lie?

    In 70 A.D. General Titus (future Emperor of Rome) did not covenant, negotiate, or confirm anything except the destruction of Jerusalem by cause of a Jewish rebellion beginning in 66 A.D.
    Titus prevailed against the Jews – period, there was no Rapture, falling away, caught up together, assembling, no Son of Man appearing in the clouds, no Kingdom established, no 1000 year reign of Christ, no everlasting dominion, no two witnesses or satellites so that the whole world would know about and celebrate their deaths (Revelation 11:3-10), no Prince of Princes…. Our understanding may not be God’s understanding, but these things and much more will happen because God does not lie.

    There had to be another Israel (Ezekiel 37:21-25), another Jerusalem, another prince (antichrist), another form of the Roman Empire (E.U.? – Daniel 7:7-8, 23), a reason for a seven-year peace, and yes at some point – there is another Temple (Revelation 11:1-2) prior to the 3 ½ year (42 month) midpoint of the Tribulation where it also will be eventually destroyed. This time however, in the Great Tribulation (last 3 ½ years) what has been determined shall be poured upon the (those who) desolate. Hallelujah!

    Israel, among a lot of others is going to be suckered by the antichrist into believing that HE is the Messiah – by means of a peace treaty that establishes/expands the protective borders in the perceived new Kingdom guaranteeing their safety, peace, and permission to build and practice in the third Temple.

    The Dome of the Rock will be obliterated either by;
    • Craft of the antichrist himself,
    • An act of God such as an earthquake, meteor, etc…
    • An enemy missile attack,
    • An overzealous Judaist, Christian, or a radical Islamist (a Judas of their faith).



    The Rapture

    I Thessalonians 4 – First of the letters that the Apostle Paul writes.
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    the trump of God perhaps as Come up hither such as in Revelation 4:1.

    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    II Thessalonians 2
    1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    I Corinthians 15
    51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Ephesians 1
    10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Luke 21:24) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Hebrews 10
    25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Hebrews 11
    5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Hebrews 12
    22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (translated),

    Acts 1
    11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Genesis 49
    10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

  • #2
    Re: Why Rapture?

    For the most part I agree.

    I would add that it is called the "time of Jacob's trouble" not the time of "the church's trouble".

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Why Rapture?

      Hi Sir Toady...nice post...but do bear in mind that those who disagree are not saying the Bible or anyone is lying, they just understand and interpret differently.


      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Why Rapture?

        Originally posted by SirToady View Post
        Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.




        The Rapture

        I Thessalonians 4 – First of the letters that the Apostle Paul writes.
        16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

        the trump of God perhaps as Come up hither such as in Revelation 4:1.

        17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        II Thessalonians 2
        1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
        2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
        3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
        4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        I Corinthians 15
        51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
        52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

        Ephesians 1
        10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Luke 21:24) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
        11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

        Hebrews 10
        25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

        Hebrews 11
        5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

        Hebrews 12
        22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
        23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (translated),

        Acts 1
        11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

        Genesis 49
        10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


        Imho there is no secret rapture and imho not one verse above even speaks about a secret rapture.

        Did anyone know that Moses is a god?

        Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

        Moses is not a god but it sure looks like it in Exodus 7:1.

        Same with the secret rapture theory in the quoted OP verses above being used to support a secret rapture theory. Imho not one single verse is about a secret rapture in the whole Bible.

        Changing from the flesh body to the spiritual body is not a secret rapture, imho according to what is written!

        Christians are to put on the armour of God to stand and fight as written in Eph 6! There are no wings in the armour of God!

        Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

        Christians are to make their stand! No theories, no secret, no escape artist!! We are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses so that we learn how to stand! They are written of throughout the whole Bible of how they made their stand for an example to Christians of how to make a stand!

        Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

        11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

        11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

        11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

        11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

        11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.



        Through faith Christians are to make a stand!!


        Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

        12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

        12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


        Bless you,
        Love Fountain

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Why Rapture?

          The Christian program is different from the Jewish program.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Why Rapture?

            Rapture is not "escape artist", it is a beautiful and glorious promise that none in Christ Jesus will suffer the wrath of God, not even in this life. The verses quoted do not disprove a rapture nor does the issue of standing strong in this life negate that those in Christ Jesus will not suffer the wrath of God. We do not stand strong against the wrath of God...know man can or will. We stand strong against the wiles of the Devil...the disobedience of the flesh and against sinful desires...the wrath of Satan....but we, nor anyone, will be standing strong against the wrath of God.

            And God, our Father, the one we cry Abba Father to...because of who He is, not who we are....because He has made us, through His Son, to be heirs, and because His Son has already paid for our sins and thus the wrath we deserve...would be all contradicting to who God is, what God is...who His Son is, what His Son is, and what His Son has done....if God turned around and left those in His Son, to face His wrath.

            Not to mention the "wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16)...to think that Jesus would pour out wrath upon His Bride is, for me, not comprehensible. To trust Him enough, believe, and place faith in His having paid in full for sins...to create a new creature...born again....is also trusting that in Him we are cleansed and will not be at the receiving end of His wrath...not in the next life, not in this one.

            We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.


            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why Rapture?

              No I don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

              But most in my group think that Jesus fulfilled the 70 year prophecy of Daniel.
              Daniel 9:27
              And He shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Many non pre-trib, believe the He here is Jesus Christ.

              For we read in the Old Testament how Christ will bring a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 42:6-7; Zechariah 9:11). For Christ started His ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), this would be the beginning of the New Covenant for the seven years, ,solely with the nation of Israel/Judaea. So most scholars agree that Jesus ministry was 3 and a half years. So right in the middle of the 70th weeks, Christ announced His Blood offering confirming the New Testament--Covenant (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20; I Corinthians 11:24-25). The remainder of the week the gospel message was given only to the Jews. For Daniel 9:24 tells us these 70 weeks are upon the Jewish people.


              So what happens at the end of the 70th weeks the gospel message was open up to the Gentiles. For Peter witness to Cornelius around 34AD, and what did the Jewish Believers say, will just look at Acts 11:18.

              So many will say the OT sacrifice continued, but if one reads the Book of Hebrews especially Hebrews 10 you will see the abomination this had become to God, and the Jewish nation was given a nearly 40 years period to repent or even seal their wrath before the consummation of
              Daniel 9:27. Paul spoke of this in I Thessalonians 2:14-16.

              This the Historical view which was taught predominantily in churches until the last 200 years.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Why Rapture?

                Originally posted by Beloved65 View Post
                No I don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

                But most in my group think that Jesus fulfilled the 70 year prophecy of Daniel.
                Daniel 9:27
                And He shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

                Many non pre-trib, believe the He here is Jesus Christ.

                For we read in the Old Testament how Christ will bring a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 42:6-7; Zechariah 9:11). For Christ started His ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), this would be the beginning of the New Covenant for the seven years, ,solely with the nation of Israel/Judaea. So most scholars agree that Jesus ministry was 3 and a half years. So right in the middle of the 70th weeks, Christ announced His Blood offering confirming the New Testament--Covenant (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20; I Corinthians 11:24-25). The remainder of the week the gospel message was given only to the Jews. For Daniel 9:24 tells us these 70 weeks are upon the Jewish people.


                So what happens at the end of the 70th weeks the gospel message was open up to the Gentiles. For Peter witness to Cornelius around 34AD, and what did the Jewish Believers say, will just look at Acts 11:18.

                So many will say the OT sacrifice continued, but if one reads the Book of Hebrews especially Hebrews 10 you will see the abomination this had become to God, and the Jewish nation was given a nearly 40 years period to repent or even seal their wrath before the consummation of
                Daniel 9:27. Paul spoke of this in I Thessalonians 2:14-16.

                This the Historical view which was taught predominantily in churches until the last 200 years.
                Despite the possibility that Daniel 9:27 has a historical fulfilment, the bible is full of verses elsewhere that point to a future 3.5 year period of tribulation. Not 7 years, but 3.5 years.These other 3.5 year periods do not have an easy historical interpretation, attempts to place Daniel 7, Daniel 12, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 into a complete historical context invariably fail. This period described by Jesus himself in Matthew 24 as a great tribulation period, starts with the abomination and ends with the second coming.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why Rapture?

                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  Despite the possibility that Daniel 9:27 has a historical fulfilment, the bible is full of verses elsewhere that point to a future 3.5 year period of tribulation. Not 7 years, but 3.5 years.These other 3.5 year periods do not have an easy historical interpretation, attempts to place Daniel 7, Daniel 12, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 into a complete historical context invariably fail. This period described by Jesus himself in Matthew 24 as a great tribulation period, starts with the abomination and ends with the second coming.
                  Exactly.

                  (15 characters)
                  I've been throwed outta better places than this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why Rapture?

                    Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                    Rapture is not "escape artist", it is a beautiful and glorious promise that none in Christ Jesus will suffer the wrath of God, not even in this life. The verses quoted do not disprove a rapture nor does the issue of standing strong in this life negate that those in Christ Jesus will not suffer the wrath of God. We do not stand strong against the wrath of God...know man can or will. We stand strong against the wiles of the Devil...the disobedience of the flesh and against sinful desires...the wrath of Satan....but we, nor anyone, will be standing strong against the wrath of God.
                    This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

                    We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.

                    Not to mention the "wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16)...to think that Jesus would pour out wrath upon His Bride is, for me, not comprehensible. To trust Him enough, believe, and place faith in His having paid in full for sins...to create a new creature...born again....is also trusting that in Him we are cleansed and will not be at the receiving end of His wrath...not in the next life, not in this one.
                    Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).

                    We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.[/QUOTE]
                    The Rookie

                    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why Rapture?

                      Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                      This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

                      We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.

                      Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).
                      I don't really think I am presupposing that the righteous must be removed from the earth to be protected. God has shown that He can protect the righteous in the midst of, or He can stick them in a big boat, or that He will grab them by the hand and drag them out of the way...But those methods don't mean that He also cannot remove them from the earth either...

                      My point was basically that God is awesome and the righteous have nothing to fear from God, which would include those, who after the rapture, come to Christ. So why would any of us in Christ now live in any fear of being at the receiving end of His wrath with or without a rapture...I just believe there will be a, before God's wrath starts, rapture. And that it is a glorious promise and hope....in other words, it is joy. ...God is awesome and such a promise should be something, amongst the other many reasons, that directs our hearts toward Him at all times, every moment of our lives.

                      The last days events are wrath, but the events also seem to start slow and then escalate...designed to bring men still on the earth to saving faith as opposed to just bringing about complete destruction of the men on earth, though that will happen to the unrighteous by the time it is all over. That process is not needed for the Bride because she already has saving faith in Christ.


                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Re: Why Rapture?

                        Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                        I don't really think I am presupposing that the righteous must be removed from the earth to be protected.
                        Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.

                        God has shown that He can protect the righteous in the midst of, or He can stick them in a big boat, or that He will grab them by the hand and drag them out of the way...But those methods don't mean that He also cannot remove them from the earth either...
                        No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.

                        So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.

                        God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.
                        The Rookie

                        Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why Rapture?

                          Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                          The last days events are wrath, but the events also seem to start slow and then escalate...designed to bring men still on the earth to saving faith as opposed to just bringing about complete destruction of the men on earth, though that will happen to the unrighteous by the time it is all over.
                          The last days aren't only wrath. There's also glory. Consider Revelation 14 - there's a harvest of souls for Jesus in there, not just a harvest of the grapes of wrath. Consider Revelation 12 - there's great victory in overcoming the evil one in his "finest" hour, whether one lives or dies. The theme of Revelation (repeated often in Rev. 2-3) is "overcoming" not "escaping".

                          That process is not needed for the Bride because she already has saving faith in Christ.
                          That process is not needed "for" the Bride; but it is necessary "that" the Bride participate fully (in full and joyful agreement and intercession) - not watch from a distance. The Bride is for Jesus...and, for the earth. Her victory is His glory; Her escape (besides being described nowhere in the book of Revelation or elsewhere) would bring Him no glory. It's our response in the midst of great peril and trouble that glorifies the Lamb (the theme of the book, interconnected with "overcoming") and shakes the earth.
                          The Rookie

                          Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

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                          • #14
                            Re: Why Rapture?

                            [QUOTE=SirToady;2838708]Prelude to the Rapture



                            [

                            The Dome of the Rock will be obliterated either by;
                            • Craft of the antichrist himself,
                            • An act of God such as an earthquake, meteor, etc…
                            • An enemy missile attack,
                            • An overzealous Judaist, Christian, or a radical Islamist (a Judas of their faith).


                            Sorry to have just picked out part of your thread but have you heard of the idea that there is enough room to build the New Temple without the destruction of the Dome on the Rock, it's an interesting thought and adds another possibility.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Why Rapture?

                              I just messed up and lost my post...got a start over...


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