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***moonglow*** · Oct 17 2008, 01:47 AM

So having said that I would like to tell you what I saw in a vision the other day...I realize there is a dream and vision forum for this sort of thing but I hope to keep this on here for those that would know the matching verses for this better then I do. I feel this directly has to do with everything we talk about on here.

I saw the 24 elders in Heaven ..12 standing on each side of an tunnel in which ten Bridesmaids came out of all dressed in wedding gowns...these are more like brides then bridesmaids actually. I have seem similar scenes many, many times before. They walk down a walk way then up some stairs to the throne room..I already knew things were going to go bad...Have seen that before too and I didn't want to watch...I tried to look away but someone was standing beside me telling me I had to watch.

A little background quickly here. One time I saw them dancing one minute around Jesus and the next attacking Him...but the attack isn't a physical attack...its spiritual. While I was very shaken by this...not understanding...later I came to understand this is what these churches that distort God's Word do to Christ everyday. They wound Him...they abuse Him...they tear Him apart...His Words (The Word Becomes Flesh..John 1:14).

I was high above looking down at all of this..I saw mighty winged angels standing on each side of the throne room. Christ on His throne but then in comes the lovely and oh so beautiful brides with their black hearts.

This time there was no pretending ...no even fake worship...nothing nice at all and they seized Him and took Him down to the crystal lake with fire under it. The scene was horrible and next I saw Him, He was the beaten and whipped Christ with the purple robe hanging off His body as He stood barely hanging His head. One of the brides...I saw the back of her head change and mutant into something ghastly and then she was the head of the red dragon...

Revelation 12:3
Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.

She absorbed all the other brides and their bodies became the dragons bodies and this thing...this horrible dragon roared and circled around Christ who was stills standing there, beaten and bloody. It grew and was huge and Jesus looked so small...the whole thing was very terrifying! But this man besides me kept saying to look..to watch..to see, even though I didn't want to see.

Then finally I was told to go to Him and so I ran from the high place I was down to Him and barely grabbed Him in time as He was lifted up and changed from what appeared to be this beaten defeated man into God. He became the bright morning star! (Revelation 22:16) His brightness literally blasted the dragon to dust..then the dust to ashes and then even the ashes shriveled away to nothing. And we rose up to the mountain where God the Father is in the thundering clouds.

I have seen these brides or bridesmaids time and time again and have come to believe they are the churches...the Christian churches gone bad...very bad. Apostate. I don't think we need to be looking for the government as our enemy or another nation or religion at this point but at ourselves. (not saying those things won't play into things)

Who wanted Christ on the cross in the first place?

Who wanted all His disciplines dead?

His own religion. (I am NOT pointing at the Jews!) We have gone beyond that now haven't we? What is our religion now? Why were all the Christian churches in the beginning of Revelation scolded except one? Why all the warnings about false prophets and teaches?

Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless

***Richard H*** · Oct 17 2008, 03:32 AM

Hi MoonGlow,
That�s a very interesting vision.
I generally don�t �go for� visions, but Scripture tells us not to despise the prophetic.

Do not quench the Spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
1Thes 5:19-21

Certainly, there�s a great deal of flesh in some churches today.
There�s kingdom (empire) building through business models.
There�s donation motivation teachings which guides the people into self-serving �seed planting�.

I could continue, but suffice it to say that the focus is on self � the flesh.

The good news of redemption from sin has been replaced by the feel good promise of having all one�s problems solved.
When that doesn�t happen, it�s a lack of faith. L

The Good Shepherd said to Peter three times to feed His sheep (and lambs � the third time).
This was to be the expression of Peter�s love for Christ.
Sadly, real spiritual meat is not being served, and the milk has been watered down.
What happen to: the Gospel? Who teaches repentance? Who emphasizes holiness? (Being set apart for God)
Who teaches the fruit of the Spirit? �And the need to sacrifice selfishness?

I occasionally read posts in the dreams forum, and I�ve noticed a reoccurring theme:
God is outside the church, and the church will suffer because of it.
The hypocrisy, ignorance and sin present in the pulpits is reflected in the pews.

We have to ask ourselves:
But what is the purpose of these dreams and visions?
Is it to leave the churches so as not to be involved in these sins?
Are we being called out?
Or is it a call to action?
And if so, what sort of action might that be?

"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8

I wish I had the answers as I�m sure you do as well.
Richard

**Dani H** · Oct 17 2008, 03:39 AM

But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

***Nihil Obstat*** · Oct 17 2008, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by DaniHansen View Post

But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is spiritual, in the sense of "opposite of fleshly / carnal", but not in the sense of "opposite of literal".

**Dani H** · Oct 17 2008, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post

Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is spiritual, in the sense of "opposite of fleshly / carnal", but not in the sense of "opposite of literal".

Have you ever seen a literal dragon?

How about a literal woman caught up in the heavens clothed with the sun and moon and stars?

Are you a literal candlestick? Or are you a person?

My concern with taking some things literal with Revelations, and other things not so much, is that there is no consistency and things get real muddled, real fast. Which is where people start arguing about pre-trib and post-trib and this trib and that trib, and so on and so forth.

By "spiritual" I mean a pictural rendition of spiritual concepts, principles, and truths. Established by a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What is your take on that?

***�σяєяυииєя*** · Oct 17 2008, 04:20 AM

One thing:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Maybe when you be in certain place or writting the meaning of these will be given to you, for this happened to Ellen G. White. around 1800`s.

Fareyewell

**bennie** · Oct 17 2008, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by DaniHansen View Post

Have you ever seen a literal dragon?

How about a literal woman caught up in the heavens clothed with the sun and moon and stars?

Are you a literal candlestick? Or are you a person?

My concern with taking some things literal with Revelations, and other things not so much, is that there is no consistency and things get real muddled, real fast. Which is where people start arguing about pre-trib and post-trib and this trib and that trib, and so on and so forth.

By "spiritual" I mean a pictural rendition of spiritual concepts, principles, and truths. Established by a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What is your take on that?

hi dani

have you ever seen spirutual grass.
have you ever seen spirutual trees or earthquekes or thunder.
well, i hope not

revelation can be symbolic, literal or analogous.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

All different tipes of langauge my friend.

bennie

**Dani H** · Oct 17 2008, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by bennie View Post

hi dani

have you ever seen spirutual grass.
have you ever seen spirutual trees or earthquekes or thunder.
well, i hope not

revelation can be symbolic, literal or analogous.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

All different tipes of langauge my friend.

bennie

Well, I've heard spiritual thunder ... when God opens His mouth and jumps all over my case.

I can fully understand people getting concerned about ... "over-spiritualization" ... because some people just can't take sound doctrine and use that to explain things away and chase after their own fancies and out of balance and off into flakiness.

But I think the concern of that shouldn't keep us from stepping too far into the literal, either.

I'm with Moonglow looking for the medium ... on solid ground.

***moonglow*** · Oct 17 2008, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Richard H View Post

Hi MoonGlow,
That�s a very interesting vision.
I generally don�t �go for� visions, but Scripture tells us not to despise the prophetic.

Do not quench the Spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
1Thes 5:19-21

Certainly, there�s a great deal of flesh in some churches today.
There�s kingdom (empire) building through business models.
There�s donation motivation teachings which guides the people into self-serving �seed planting�.

I could continue, but suffice it to say that the focus is on self � the flesh.

The good news of redemption from sin has been replaced by the feel good promise of having all one�s problems solved.
When that doesn�t happen, it�s a lack of faith. L

The Good Shepherd said to Peter three times to feed His sheep (and lambs � the third time).
This was to be the expression of Peter�s love for Christ.
Sadly, real spiritual meat is not being served, and the milk has been watered down.
What happen to: the Gospel? Who teaches repentance? Who emphasizes holiness? (Being set apart for God)
Who teaches the fruit of the Spirit? �And the need to sacrifice selfishness?

I occasionally read posts in the dreams forum, and I�ve noticed a reoccurring theme:
God is outside the church, and the church will suffer because of it.
The hypocrisy, ignorance and sin present in the pulpits is reflected in the pews.

We have to ask ourselves:
But what is the purpose of these dreams and visions?
Is it to leave the churches so as not to be involved in these sins?
Are we being called out?
Or is it a call to action?
And if so, what sort of action might that be?

"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8

I wish I had the answers as I�m sure you do as well.
Richard

The purpose of dreams and visions have always been to benefit the church or the individual. Especially in the first century with the new churches who had no bibles in their hands to refer too. While many of the first Christians were Jews and knew the OT by heart...they needed alot of guidance and teaching and encouragement. Later the gentiles needed alot since they didn't know the OT.

I still see dreams and visions working this way too...too benefit the church...not to reveal something new or something in the future, but to give a deeper understand of what we already have. Too many times dreams and visions are abused and used as predictions of future events that actually contradict the bible. Or send people into a panic thinking God's wrath is about to be poured out...(usually on America...makes you wonder if those living in other countries say this in regards to their own nations as much as we do!). We are far too focused on our own nation for sure!

I have heard of people also having dreams and visions that they feel means people should be called out of their churches...leave them due to the corruption in them. I don't think I can say that and that never sat right with me. To go and tell all Christians to leave their churches. I think the Holy Spirit has to deal with each person on an individual basis on that one. To me that is just too much like telling a husband or wife that since things are rough at the moment they should just give up and divorce them. As Christians we would not do that. Maybe have a separation for awhile...but not to leave for good.

Most of my dreams and visions are usually only for me personally. The things I learn are for me only...fit my life...not others. But like I said this one with the brides is a reoccurring one that has me puzzled.

Thanks for your input.

God bless

***moonglow*** · Oct 17 2008, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by DaniHansen View Post

But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

Good point. That is why its so symbolic. Its like the visions Ezekiel and Daniel had...all very symbolic.

�σяєяυииєя One thing:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Maybe when you be in certain place or writting the meaning of these will be given to you, for this happened to Ellen G. White. around 1800`s.

Fareyewell

I kind of hate to be compared to her...many consider her a false prophet. She was a SDA...while not all of those churches are completely out of the Christian mainstream, many are.

Acts 2:16-18

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 � And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

The last days for Jerusalem was then! Before it was destroyed.

The Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 16. Spoken by the prophet Joel
The prophecy which he delivered so long ago is just now fulfilled; and this is another proof that Jesus whom ye have crucified is the Messiah.

Verse 17. In the last days
The time of the Messiah; and so the phrase was understood among the Jews.

I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh
Rabbi Tanchum says, "When Moses laid his hands upon Joshua, the holy blessed God said, In the time of the old text, each individual prophet prophesied; but, in the times of the Messiah, all the Israelites shall be prophets." And this they build on the prophecy quoted in this place by Peter.

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
The word prophesy is not to be understood here as implying the knowledge and discovery of future events; but signifies to teach and proclaim the great truths of God, especially those which concerned redemption by Jesus Christ.

Your young men shall see visions, various ways in which God revealed himself under the Old Testament. Sometimes he revealed himself by a symbol, which was a sufficient proof of the Divine presence: fire was the most ordinary, as it was the most expressive, symbol. Thus he appeared to Moses on Mount Horeb, and afterwards at Sinai; to Abraham, Genesis 15:1-21; to Elijah, ; 1 Kings 19:11,12. At other times he revealed himself by angelic ministry: this was frequent, especially in the days of the patriarchs, of which we find many instances in the book of Genesis.

By dreams he discovered his will in numerous instances: see the remarkable case of Joseph, Genesis 37:5,9; of Jacob, ; 28:1, Genesis 46:2, of Pharaoh, ; 41:1-7; of Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel 4:10-17. For the different ways in which God communicated the knowledge of his will to mankind

***************************
In other words this happened as further proof Jesus was the Messiah.

God bless

***markdrums*** · Oct 17 2008, 03:41 PM

There are some GREAT posts here!!
I think we all understand we can't spiritualize EVERYTHING. But at the same time, we can't LITERALIZE everything either. There's a natural balance that needs to be followed.

I believe the fall in the garden was a literal event.
Jesus' crucifixion & resurrection were literal events.
Many many more "literal" events can be talked about as well. But we have to understand when things ARE spiritualized. We need to recognize when & how metaphors are used.....

Example:
A lot of people over literalize Revelation, & say that "a third of the stars will literally fall to Earth" durung the "great tribulation". I say, that is a misinterpretation & misunderstanding. ONE star alone would completely obliterate the entire planet... let alone BILLIONS of them. The whole "thrid of the stars" thing is prophetic, apocalyptic hyperbole.

Revelation is the most spirtual, metaphoric, apocalyptic book in the Bible. It's full of visions & prophecies. The descriptions also indicate that these are spiritual / metaphoric imagery... such as: REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

We're not to assume that his feet are literally made of brass, burned in a furnace. Nor should we think his voice literally sounds like many waters. We've been given imagery that describes the might & the power & authority.

Getting off on the wrong foot from the beginning of the Bible, & forcing a literal translation into ALL of scripture when it doesn't belong there, leads us to problems just like the "thrid of the stars" & more.

I think we sometimes tend to build things up much bigger & more "grand" than they were intended to be; which makes it difficult for other people to comprehend & harder to believe. We over-complicate the Bible when things might actually be much more simple.

***Richard H*** · Oct 17 2008, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by moonglow View Post

The purpose of dreams and visions have always been to benefit the church or the individual. Especially in the first century with the new churches who had no bibles in their hands to refer too. While many of the first Christians were Jews and knew the OT by heart...they needed alot of guidance and teaching and encouragement. Later the gentiles needed alot since they didn't know the OT.

I still see dreams and visions working this way too...too benefit the church...not to reveal something new or something in the future, but to give a deeper understand of what we already have. Too many times dreams and visions are abused and used as predictions of future events that actually contradict the bible. Or send people into a panic thinking God's wrath is about to be poured out...(usually on America...makes you wonder if those living in other countries say this in regards to their own nations as much as we do!). We are far too focused on our own nation for sure!

I have heard of people also having dreams and visions that they feel means people should be called out of their churches...leave them due to the corruption in them. I don't think I can say that and that never sat right with me. To go and tell all Christians to leave their churches. I think the Holy Spirit has to deal with each person on an individual basis on that one. To me that is just too much like telling a husband or wife that since things are rough at the moment they should just give up and divorce them. As Christians we would not do that. Maybe have a separation for awhile...but not to leave for good.

Most of my dreams and visions are usually only for me personally. The things I learn are for me only...fit my life...not others. But like I said this one with the brides is a reoccurring one that has me puzzled.

Thanks for your input.

God bless

I wasn't telling people to leave their churches any more than I was telling people to ask themselves, "what can we do to make things better?".

I'd hope it would be the latter.

***moonglow*** · Oct 17 2008, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by markdrums View Post

There are some GREAT posts here!!
I think we all understand we can't spiritualize EVERYTHING. But at the same time, we can't LITERALIZE everything either. There's a natural balance that needs to be followed.

I believe the fall in the garden was a literal event.
Jesus' crucifixion & resurrection were literal events.
Many many more "literal" events can be talked about as well. But we have to understand when things ARE spiritualized. We need to recognize when & how metaphors are used.....

Example:
A lot of people over literalize Revelation, & say that "a third of the stars will literally fall to Earth" durung the "great tribulation". I say, that is a misinterpretation & misunderstanding. ONE star alone would completely obliterate the entire planet... let alone BILLIONS of them. The whole "thrid of the stars" thing is prophetic, apocalyptic hyperbole.

Revelation is the most spirtual, metaphoric, apocalyptic book in the Bible. It's full of visions & prophecies. The descriptions also indicate that these are spiritual / metaphoric imagery... such as: REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

We're not to assume that his feet are literally made of brass, burned in a furnace. Nor should we think his voice literally sounds like many waters. We've been given imagery that describes the might & the power & authority.

Getting off on the wrong foot from the beginning of the Bible, & forcing a literal translation into ALL of scripture when it doesn't belong there, leads us to problems just like the "thrid of the stars" & more.

I think we sometimes tend to build things up much bigger & more "grand" than they were intended to be; which makes it difficult for other people to comprehend & harder to believe. We over-complicate the Bible when things might actually be much more simple.

Yep...very true indeed! I think all of us (myself included) need to look at scriptures through the eyes of God...rather then though the eyes of men. Peter didn't understand why Jesus would allow Himself to die...as he was looking through the eyes of men and not understanding how God sees things. We have the benefit of hind sight on that one...yet we continue making the same mistakes he did and not seeing it through the eyes of God.

Richard H
I wasn't telling people to leave their churches any more than I was telling people to ask themselves, "what can we do to make things better?".

I'd hope it would be the latter.

Oh sorry Richard...I wasn't implying you were saying that...I thought you were asking me about that! Sorry for the misunderstanding on that...

God bless

***Richard H*** · Oct 17 2008, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by moonglow View Post

Oh sorry Richard...I wasn't implying you were saying that...I thought you were asking me about that! Sorry for the misunderstanding on that...

God bless

No problem, MoonGlow.

People didn�t understand Jonathan Swift, when he wrote �A Modest Proposal�.
But then again, I�m no Jonathan Swift.

'Just tryna' get people thinkin'

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Here's a thought..what if we are not seeing the spiritual side of things

Here's a thought..what if we are not seeing the spiritual side of things

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