Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The names of the two witnesses revealed.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The names of the two witnesses revealed.

    Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

    What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
    Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

    Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God.


    Gabriel and Michael

    Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

    Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.

    Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

  • #2
    Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

    "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" - Malachi 4:5.

    Hmmm... Interesting conflict we have here.
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

      There are like 17 two witnesses threads going on lol.
      A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
      -R.A. Heinlein

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

        As long as the two witnesses know who they themselves are... we have nothing to worry about
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

          Originally posted by Ceegen View Post
          "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" - Malachi 4:5.

          Hmmm... Interesting conflict we have here.
          You are taking that "before" means "just prior" and thus one of the witnesses. However as you know "before" can mean anytime after Malachi up to the day of the Lord. Yes I do agree the day of the Lord is the second coming. Elijah was represented as John the Baptist.

          Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
          Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

          Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
          Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
          Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            You are taking that "before" means "just prior" and thus one of the witnesses. However as you know "before" can mean anytime after Malachi up to the day of the Lord. Yes I do agree the day of the Lord is the second coming. Elijah was represented as John the Baptist.

            Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
            Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

            Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
            Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
            Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
            Very good, I stand corrected.

            Now I am really interested to know, but I'm not so sure on just the names of those two angels. I'll read more and pray about it, but I won't jump to conclusions just yet. Certainly, the birth of John was a miracle also. Will Enoch come back at all, or has come back already? Very interesting questions for other reasons too, I think.
            John 10 (KJV)
            27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
            28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
            29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
              Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

              First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

              What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
              Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

              Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

              Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God. ...
              How can you jump tracks like that? I can see your conclusion that the two witnesses represent churches. What I can't understand is how you can jump tracks at one point realizing they can be 2 churches, from that to thinking they aren't churches but now are somehow (messengers angels) from those churches. That makes no sense. I see plenty of other biblical references that the 2 witnesses could represent churches, but I see no biblical reference at all, that they could represent messengers from those churches.

              Also, how can you say two angels represent God, then later assume those two angels represent the church? God is not a church.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                How can you jump tracks like that? I can see your conclusion that the two witnesses represent churches. What I can't understand is how you can jump tracks at one point realizing they can be 2 churches, from that to thinking they aren't churches but now are somehow (messengers angels) from those churches. That makes no sense. I see plenty of other biblical references that the 2 witnesses could represent churches, but I see no biblical reference at all, that they could represent messengers from those churches..
                Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                The two prophets are called candlesticks but of course they are not the multitute of the church but two individuals thus they represent the churches as the stars.

                Also, how can you say two angels represent God, then later assume those two angels represent the church? God is not a church
                I said they stand with and for God. Who are Gabriel and Michael?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                  Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                  The two prophets are called candlesticks but of course they are not the multitute of the church but two individuals thus they represent the churches as the stars.
                  This is what I don't understand. Where do you get two prophets? If I had to guess, I would say the two witnesses are not two specific people, but two churches, namely the gentile church and the messianic Jew church, but I most certainly wouldn't assume that it speaks of two individual people.


                  I said they stand with and for God. Who are Gabriel and Michael?
                  They are angels (messengers) from God, not messengers from two of seven churches.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                    If you want to read anything you want into the Bible, then yes, you could say Gabriel and Michael are the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

                    If you want to read the Bible with appropriate exegesis, there's no way you could come to that conclusion. It seems you're doing so solely because Gabriel and Michael happen to be the only angels given names in the canonical books of the Bible, but all the while you're disregarding the actual details given to the reader in Revelation 11. What if there happened to be three or more angels named in the Bible (Raphael, Uriel, etc.)? What if there was only one or even none? That there happen to be two named is only a matter of convenience.


                    1. Contextually, only one of the two is even named in the book (Michael), and it has nothing to do with the context of chapter 11. Why didn't John name the two witnesses if they are meant to have specific angelic identities, if he had no problem naming one angel in the next chapter?

                    2. The lampstands are symbols for the churches, not the messengers of the churches. If John wanted to use his symbolism consistently (and we have no reason to think otherwise), or if he wanted to invest the 'lampstands' with new symbolism (and we have no reason to think he did), why didn't he call the two witnesses 'stars' instead of 'lampstands'?

                    3. The reason Moses and Elijah are so often identified in the two witnesses is because John explicitly associates the two witnesses with miracles performed by Moses and Elijah. You need a reason more than a dismissive handwave for why you think this connection is wrong. This includes the idea that the references to Moses and Elijah are typological, rather than literal.

                    4. John's symbolism for the two lampstands / two olive trees is obviously referring to Zechariah 4, where they together signify Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the royal governor. You've given no explanation for why John would use this symbolism, but again in keeping with his own consistent terminology, it makes most sense that he is referring to the Church in some sense (not angels), because 'lampstands' represent the Church in his book, on two levels. The first level is the obvious one: he calls the seven churches 'lampstands' in chapter 1-3. The second level is more subtle: he consistently identifies the Church as a royal priesthood (the introduction in chapter 1, and the song in chapter 5). The lampstands in Zechariah 4 refer to royalty (Zerubbabel, son of David) and priesthood (Joshua). It makes a world of sense for why he would apply the symbolism for the royalty and priesthood (two lampstands / two olive trees) of Zechariah 4 to his two witnesses, if the two witnesses figuratively personify the Church in some way. It makes no sense when applied to a literal pair of angels.
                    To This Day

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                      Originally posted by markedward View Post
                      2. The lampstands are symbols for the churches, not the messengers of the churches. If John wanted to use his symbolism consistently (and we have no reason to think otherwise), or if he wanted to invest the 'lampstands' with new symbolism (and we have no reason to think he did), why didn't he call the two witnesses 'stars' instead of 'lampstands'?
                      Exactly. I was going to make that same point. It doesn't say the two witnesses are two "stars", it says they are two "lampstands" (or "candlesticks") and Rev 1 indicates that lampstands represent churches. So, the two witnesses are being associated with churches (since lampstands represent churches), not to angels or messengers of the churches.

                      4. John's symbolism for the two lampstands / two olive trees is obviously referring to Zechariah 4, where they together signify Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the royal governor. You've given no explanation for why John would use this symbolism, but again in keeping with his own consistent terminology, it makes most sense that he is referring to the Church in some sense (not angels), because 'lampstands' represent the Church in his book, on two levels. The first level is the obvious one: he calls the seven churches 'lampstands' in chapter 1-3. The second level is more subtle: he consistently identifies the Church as a royal priesthood (the introduction in chapter 1, and the song in chapter 5). The lampstands in Zechariah 4 refer to royalty (Zerubbabel, son of David) and priesthood (Joshua). It makes a world of sense for why he would apply the symbolism for the royalty and priesthood (two lampstands / two olive trees) of Zechariah 4 to his two witnesses, if the two witnesses figuratively personify the Church in some way. It makes no sense when applied to a literal pair of angels.
                      Agree.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                        I think I have a lot of this somewhat figured out, except I can't find an easy way to express this in writing. IMO, most of the answers are found in the book of Daniel, and is tied to the 1260 days, and that there are possibly two 1260 day periods, when added together equals the entire 70th week. I will say this, tho in the past I would have indicated otherwise, these two witnesses are not two literal individuals, such as two literal persons or two literal angels. That's the direction I'm currently leaning, but unfortunately it would be too tedious for me to try and express this all in writing.

                        Look at this clue for instance.

                        Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
                        8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
                        9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


                        First of all, mathematically speaking, the 3 and 1/2 days here, this is equal to 42 months, which is equal to a time, times, and the dividing of time, which is equal to 1260 days.

                        What does Daniel tell us about this beast making war with?

                        Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


                        IMO, this would be this three days and an half mentioned in Revelation 11, which would equal this time and times and the dividing of time in Daniel 7.

                        We also see this in Daniel 8.

                        Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
                        24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

                        Then we have another clue in Rev 10 which seems to provide more clarity when consulting Daniel 12.

                        Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
                        6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
                        7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


                        This tells us the mystery of God should be finished, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

                        Now let's go to Daniel 12, since the rising of the two witnesses is tied to the time of the 7th trumpet.


                        Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


                        IMO, this would likely be the two witnesses..IOW..the holy people..the saints of the most high.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                          To those who hold that the Witnesses are angels, all you have to do now is show biblically where angels can die and be resurrected.

                          To those who hold that one is Moses, all you have to do now is show that Moses, a man, can die twice (Heb.9:27)

                          To those who hold that they are Churches, all you have to do is show that scripture shows more than one Church per city, especially in the city where the Lord was crucified.

                          To those who hold they are Churches, all you have to show is that the Church;
                          • has the power to shut heaven that it cannot rain "all the days of it's testimony"
                          • has the ability to kill men with fire from it's mouth. The Church is an "Ambassador of reconciliation" not an instrument of death (2nd Cor.5:18-19)
                          • can have a "dead body"
                          • can have a dead body than can be "prevented from being put in a grave"
                          • is given to torment "them that dwell on the earth"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            To those who hold that the Witnesses are angels, all you have to do now is show biblically where angels can die and be resurrected.
                            It is not the angel ie spirit which dies but the body.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The names of the two witnesses revealed.

                              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                              It is not the angel ie spirit which dies but the body.
                              If you have established "them" (the two witnesses) as angels, which you have, "... overcome them and kill them" in the normal usage of grammar must mean "overcome and kill the two angels". But even so, the question still stands unanswered. Where is biblical proof that angels can be killed, even in body?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X