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  • Footstool

    Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
    I was just trying to layout what I consider an accurate time line of pre mil/trib.

    But your post led me to this question. If your position as amil is that we are now ruling with Christ and Satan is bound, does that not contradict the question, or the answer you are hoping me to give?
    No

    How can we be ruling a kingdom we have not yet inherited? Which is off topic but I had to ask. I don't require a response even as to not derail the thread.
    I will respond and at the same time I kindly ask that everyone else leave this side discussion just between quiet dove and myself so as not to derail the thread. Thanks.

    Okay, to answer your question, scripture teaches that we are now in the kingdom of Christ.

    Col 1
    12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

    We have been delivered from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ, which is a spiritual kingdom that is not of this world (John 18:36) and does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). Agree?

    With this understanding, let's look again at the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13. I'll just quote the last few verses.

    41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Notice that "them which do iniquity" are separated from His kingdom at the end of the age. Then notice that at that point believers are said to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". Suddenly, the kingdom that is said to belong to the Son of man is called the kingdom of the Father. Why? I believe the following passage explains it:

    1 Cor 15
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    When Christ comes at the end of the age, He will then deliver the kingdom that He has reigned over during this NT time period to the Father. The kingdom of God that is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50 and Matthew 13:43 is the final manifestation of the kingdom of God the Father in which there will be no wicked people and no wickedness at all found there or anywhere near it. There will be no death, pain, crying or sorrow there. As it says, "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" will be removed.

    Unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the age. Christ returns at the end of the age. This means that day of judgment happens at that time. The transfer of the kingdom from the Son to the Father will be made complete when Christ returns. Even the Son will be subject unto the Father at that time.

    1 Cor 15:28
    And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    When did Christ begin to reign? When the Father put all things under Him. When was that?

    Ephesians 1
    17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    This answers the question. All things were put under Him when He was raised from the dead. He even said in Matthew 28:18, "all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". He has reigned ever since over His kingdom, which is the church. He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns at the end of the age.

    I also did not say there would not be believers and unbelievers in the world together.
    You believe that believers will be taken out of the world seven years before the end of the age, right? I believe that contradicts the parable of the wheat and tares.

    I specifically said that Christ would remove the unbelievers and the believers would be left to live into the thousand years. It's which believers and where they go that brings us to a disagreement
    Do you believe Christ returns at the end of the age? Where did Jesus teach that unbelievers go at that time? Did He not teach that they are cast "into a furnace of fire" at that time? According to Rev. 20, unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire AFTER the thousand years are finished.

  • #2
    How do these two things harmonize if we are talking only talking one kingdom or type of kingdom, in other words, if Matt description of the sheep and the goats and the sheep inheriting the kingdom are a description that eliminates an earthly reign of Christ, what we affectionately call the Millennium. How does this statement harmonize:........

    When Christ comes at the end of the age, He will then deliver the kingdom that He has reigned over during this NT time period to the Father
    (And I agree, that will happen)

    ........with this passage:

    Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "SIT AT MYRIGHTHAND, TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL"?

    God clearly states Christ is at His right hand until God has made His enemies His footstool

    To apply Eph 1:22 "under His feet" with the same application seems to cause a contradiction because did Christ not sit at the Fathers right hand after the cross, and is then told to sit there "until" He makes his enemies His foot stool. So the only thing I can conclude is that Christ Jesus, a name above all names, Lord of lords and King of kings, does have all things under His feet, He has authority above all things. And that is not the same context as His Father making His (Jesus) enemies His (Jesus) footstool.

    One implies action on Christ part 1Cor 15:24 with Christ delivering the kingdom up to the Father
    And the other implies action on the Fathers part, making Christ enemies Christ footstool, and until the Father does so, Christ is to sit at the Fathers right hand.


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    • #3
      john146, I just started another thread so we didn't get ourselves in a derail hot water bucket. As you can see I had no idea what to name it so I am open to suggestions.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
        How do these two things harmonize if we are talking only talking one kingdom or type of kingdom, in other words, if Matt description of the sheep and the goats and the sheep inheriting the kingdom are a description that eliminates an earthly reign of Christ, what we affectionately call the Millennium. How does this statement harmonize:........

        (And I agree, that will happen)

        ........with this passage:

        Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "SIT AT MYRIGHTHAND, TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL"?

        God clearly states Christ is at His right hand until God has made His enemies His footstool

        To apply Eph 1:22 "under His feet" with the same application seems to cause a contradiction because did Christ not sit at the Fathers right hand after the cross, and is then told to sit there "until" He makes his enemies His foot stool. So the only thing I can conclude is that Christ Jesus, a name above all names, Lord of lords and King of kings, does have all things under His feet, He has authority above all things. And that is not the same context as His Father making His (Jesus) enemies His (Jesus) footstool.

        One implies action on Christ part 1Cor 15:24 with Christ delivering the kingdom up to the Father
        And the other implies action on the Fathers part, making Christ enemies Christ footstool, and until the Father does so, Christ is to sit at the Fathers right hand.
        I'll get to your questions if you would please answer the following questions first. Do you believe that Christ returns at the end of the age? Doesn't the parable of the wheat and tares suggest that the day of judgment occurs at that time?

        Originally posted by quiet dove
        john146, I just started another thread so we didn't get ourselves in a derail hot water bucket. As you can see I had no idea what to name it so I am open to suggestions.
        How about "What takes place at the end of the age?".

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