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Lake of Fire & Second Death

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  • #31
    This bears interjection as to definition of "death."

    Which, in God's eyes, does not mean "ceasing to exist" ... because when He told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the fruit ... did they cease to exist after they ate? No. Their spirit ceased to communicate with God. So, in God's eyes, death means "ceasing to communicate with one's environment."

    That means if we die here, and now, according to God's way, we will not die then. We can't do any more than die. If we die to self, and let God resurrect His own nature within us and have the self-life replaced with His eternal life, then death can no longer touch us, any more than it can touch God, Who is eternal. Either die now, or die later. Either face His judgment now, or later. Either way, we're going to face it. How much better to face it now, isn't it? Crawl on the altar and let His fire fall upon us now, and burn everything away that is not of Him, or do it later. That is God's way as set forth in Scripture.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gentle Soul View Post
      The book of life, does anybody care to elaborate on that one a bit more?
      Hi Gentle Soul,
      Elaborate on the Book of Life?
      ‘Dunno if I can do that, but here’s some Scripture:

      The Book of Life is first seen in Psalm 69.
      David is crying out to God about his enemies.
      Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness.
      May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
      Psalm 69:27,28

      And then:
      Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
      Philippians 4:3

      Names apparently can be erased. Also see Psalm 69
      'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
      Revelation 3:5

      But names in it have been written from the foundation of the world.
      All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
      Revelation 13:8

      You need your name in the Book of Life to enter the New Jerusalem.
      It is the Lamb’s Book.
      I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
      And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
      The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
      In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
      and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
      and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
      Rev 21:22-27

      And of course, the book is opened at the judgment throne.
      If your name isn’t there, it’s bad news.
      And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
      And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
      Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
      And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
      Rev 20:12-15

      Comment


      • #33
        The first and second resurrection and the second death

        The first resurrection is all those who have been raised before, during and after the tribulation period. For all these will reign with Christ during the Millennial kingdom.

        The second resurrection is of none believers who will receive their spiritual bodies before they stand before the judgment throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death, which those who partake of the first resurrection have no fear of.

        Revelation 20:4-6
        4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

        Daniel 12:2
        2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (second resurrection and death)

        They have to be resurrected into their immortal bodies before they can feel the second death. this second death is total seperation from God, they can see God and all that is happening in heaven but they can not participate.

        Revelation 14:10
        The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


        I posted this elsewhere in the forum, I have also added a bit extra onto this post which I hope will help to answers your question.
        John 8:31-32



        31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


        Dizzy

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Richard H View Post
          OK.
          You threw me for a moment. The OP is about the lake of fire and the second death. So I got switched-up there.
          Hey no problem I realized I may have been slightly off topic of the OP after I posted that, which probably added to the confusion. It was more in relation to the question divaD asked about whether there are other meanings of 'death' in the bible.

          You were making a parallel. I get it.
          I do agree with your parallel, but I wouldn't label it as my "second death".

          That label is already taken and it is not reserved for the righteous in Christ.
          Yes, the parallel is every man will be judged by fire, one way or another.

          Is it possible there is a parallel between the second death (which is the lake of fire) and the 'death' that we believers must go through (dying to the carnal nature)?

          Legoman

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          • #35
            Originally posted by legoman View Post
            Hey no problem I realized I may have been slightly off topic of the OP after I posted that, which probably added to the confusion. It was more in relation to the question divaD asked about whether there are other meanings of 'death' in the bible.

            Yes, the parallel is every man will be judged by fire, one way or another.

            Is it possible there is a parallel between the second death (which is the lake of fire) and the 'death' that we believers must go through (dying to the carnal nature)?

            Legoman
            'Glad we got that confusion cleared up!
            Too many threads and too many people looking at the symbolic as the literal and so having a conclusion that the literal must be symbolic...


            Hmmm... Lake... Fire... purification... dying to self...

            Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

            Rev 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

            A sea BTW: (for those who may not know) is a polished piece of brass - like a mirror - for the High Priest to examine himself to make sure He's clean before entering the Holy of Holys. (just can't find Scripture) AKA: Brasen Sea - mentioned in Jer 52:20, but I was looking for Scripture outlining it's use and purpose.
            Last edited by Richard H; Oct 24 2008, 03:30 PM. Reason: Added last line

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            • #36
              The Revelation shows Satan (the devil/dragon), the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire where they suffer torment "for ever and ever".

              Yet some people apparently believe that wicked man who is thrown into it will not be in it "for ever and ever"...

              Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

              Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

              So... if Satan (the devil) and his angels, and the beast and false prophet suffer torment "for ever and ever" - and how can someone suffer lest they exist to suffer? - then how could anyone conclude that wicked man will simply cease to exist, when Jesus directly said that wicked man would be cast into the eternal fire, the same fire where Satan, the fallen angels, the beast, and the false prophet suffer for ever and ever, and that the wicked would go to eternal punishment?

              The unending aspect of the lake of fire is given three times: eternal fire, suffer for ever and ever, and eternal punishment.

              It's not eternal punishment if you don't exist to be punished.

              It's not foreverandever suffering if you don't exist to suffer.
              It's not eternal fire if you cease to exist.
              To This Day

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              • #37
                I have a feeling you are right.
                That is what it says.

                However, we may not remember anything about it - as God will wipe away every tear.

                Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
                There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
                Ecc 1:10,11

                And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
                and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
                And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."
                Revelation 21:3-5

                Even this odd verse, which I think refers to the 2nd death.

                The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
                Isaiah 26:14

                Even the lost Ark will not be missed.

                "It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.
                Jeremiah 3:16

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                • #38
                  Jeremiah 3:16 came to pass in the second temple age. Note that Jeremiah was another prophet who prophesied the then-future return from the Babylonian Exile. 3:16 is a part of his prophecy about the return. When the Jews returned from the exile, they built another temple, and the ark of the covenant was no longer in it. It was gone, and they did not need it to continue on in their faith, just as Jeremiah prophesied. (And if not that, then at least the New Covenant age, in which worship of God no longer needs a temple, let alone the ark. Jeremiah 3:16 has been fulfilled already, either in the return from the Babylonian exile, or in the New Covenant of Christ, both of which were/are ages where the ark of the covenant no longer exists and is no longer used in worship of God.)

                  Isaiah 26:14 was written in the past-tense. It was referring to people who were already dead and had already been punished and destroyed, and had already been forgotten. It was speaking of things past, not things future.
                  To This Day

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Richard H View Post
                    I have a feeling you are right.
                    That is what it says.

                    However, we may not remember anything about it - as God will wipe away every tear.

                    Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
                    There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
                    Ecc 1:10,11

                    And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
                    and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
                    And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."
                    Revelation 21:3-5

                    Even this odd verse, which I think refers to the 2nd death.

                    The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
                    Isaiah 26:14

                    Even the lost Ark will not be missed.

                    "It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.
                    Jeremiah 3:16
                    Ecclesiastes is a very tricky book to use as a representation of truth when you use a single verse. By taking the entire context of those verses, its not talking about heaven. Its simply talking about the fact that people in the future won't remember the things you did just like you don't remember what people before you did. It is just tying in with the theme of the book that everything you do here is in vain.

                    I can't imagine we'd forget everything we did here on Earth in heaven because we'd have no idea why we were there. It would almost end the concept of eternal life, because if I had a mind wipe to where I remembered nothing, there would be no continuity to join my two lives.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Good points from both of you.

                      Thanks for telling me more about the prophets.

                      I did sort of toss Ecclesiastes in there, but I always take that book with a grain of salt - so to speak.
                      Solomon always seemed a bit jadded after getting all that wisdom.

                      "Meaningless - I tell ya it's meaningless!"
                      __________
                      <throwing hands in the air!>

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DaniHansen View Post
                        This bears interjection as to definition of "death."

                        Which, in God's eyes, does not mean "ceasing to exist" ... because when He told Adam and Eve that they
                        would surely die if they ate the fruit ... did they cease to exist after they ate? No. Their spirit ceased
                        to communicate with God. So, in God's eyes, death means "ceasing to communicate with one's
                        environment."


                        You're simply misunderstanding what happened to Adam and Eve, and making it all about Adam and Eve, instead of all about man. It was man that died, not just Adam and Eve. Did Christ die in order to redeem just Adam and Eve? Since we know this is not so, then we know that when God told them they would die when they ate of the forbidden fruit, we know that God was speaking about all of mankind, and not just these two, otherwise we wouldn't have inherited their curses, and Jesus would have had no need to die for the rest of mankind.


                        2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
                        9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
                        10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


                        As we can see, it was Christ who hath abolished death. This all goes back to the garden when God told Adam, whom would be the beginning of mankind, and whom mankind would come thru, if and when he ate from the forbidden fruit, mankind would die.

                        I have to simply disagree with your definition of death that you only applied to Adam and Eve, but failed to apply to all of mankind also.

                        Simply put, if Christ wouldn't have died, death would not be abolished. We would all then die the 2nd death. Every last one of us.



                        Originally posted by DaniHansen View Post
                        No. Their spirit ceased
                        to communicate with God.

                        I don't buy this as a definition for death. If this were true, then no one's spirit would be able to communicate with God's Spirit. We can clearly see that this is not so, because God's Spirit has clearly been communicating with man's spirit since the fall, otherwise God wouldn't have anything to do with us anymore, nor would there have been a need to redeem us from the curse of death, by having Christ pay the price with His life.


                        I used to believe that we died spiritually, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've come to realize that the 2nd death is what man was cursed with by eating of the forbidden fruit. The 2nd death is final. This is what Christ saved us from. We're told in Rev, those of us that have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over us.

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