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  • OK, ok...apparently everyone is misunderstanding my point. I want to clarify that I don't mean we shouldn't take care of ourselves, because I do believe God wants that. I, however, want to make sure that people understand that they aren't really doing it on their own, God is doing it through them. Without Him, we can't even breathe.
    As to the above poster, you are exactly correct. There are many many people who are suffering persecution today, but I was speaking of during the tribulation in particular. But you bring up a good point. Maybe by looking at the people who are now being persecuted, it will be more understood what I am getting at? God Bless.
    Psalm 118:8 - "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."

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    • Originally posted by AliveinChristDave View Post
      This is an interesting thread.
      One point I'd like to make is there seems to be a consensus that persecution only takes place during the tribulation period.
      There have been believers who faced hard times of persecution since the first century.
      Rome rounded up Christians and burned them at the stakes or fed them to the lions.
      The Waldeneses of Northern Italy were slaughtered by the thousands during the 12th century. They hid in caves and wandered from place to place to escape persecution.
      Recently thousands of Christians were killed when the communist took over Ethiopia in the 50's.
      There are reports over 100,000 North Korean Christians are in concentration camps today. China has killed thousands of Christians over the past 30-40 years. Uganda warred against Christians in the 80's. There have been thousands of Christians killed in Sudan. The Assyrians of Northern Iraq have been hunted down and killed for years. I read over 80,000 Christians are unaccounted for since we invaded the country.
      America is not immune to persecution. We won't escape. We're told not to let that day overtake us. Believers have to be prepared regardless of what you believe about end times.
      Persecution will come before the end times. The hand writing is on the wall.
      We may have to leave our homes and families and possessions to escape the turmoil facing our nation. If we sit around without preparing for the future then we will suffer loss.
      We don't trust in things but there's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. Lots of people will be disappointed because they will face insurmountable hardships unprepared because they thought the Lord would take care of them when in fact the Lord wanted them to take care of themselves.
      ACtually, I've never said there isn't tribulation today, of course there is, its just that what we experience today pales in comparison to what the bible foreshadows is coming.

      Originally posted by Veretax View Post
      Hrms, I've read a few things recently suggesting that we live even now in a time of Tribulation, but that the Great Tribulation to come is what is being talked about. I've not fully researched the idea yet, but with a cursory glance I can see how some could see it that way.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by AliveinChristDave View Post
        This is an interesting thread.
        One point I'd like to make is there seems to be a consensus that persecution only takes place during the tribulation period.
        There have been believers who faced hard times of persecution since the first century.
        Rome rounded up Christians and burned them at the stakes or fed them to the lions.
        The Waldeneses of Northern Italy were slaughtered by the thousands during the 12th century. They hid in caves and wandered from place to place to escape persecution.
        Recently thousands of Christians were killed when the communist took over Ethiopia in the 50's.
        There are reports over 100,000 North Korean Christians are in concentration camps today. China has killed thousands of Christians over the past 30-40 years. Uganda warred against Christians in the 80's. There have been thousands of Christians killed in Sudan. The Assyrians of Northern Iraq have been hunted down and killed for years. I read over 80,000 Christians are unaccounted for since we invaded the country.
        America is not immune to persecution. We won't escape. We're told not to let that day overtake us. Believers have to be prepared regardless of what you believe about end times.
        Persecution will come before the end times. The hand writing is on the wall.
        We may have to leave our homes and families and possessions to escape the turmoil facing our nation. If we sit around without preparing for the future then we will suffer loss.
        We don't trust in things but there's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. Lots of people will be disappointed because they will face insurmountable hardships unprepared because they thought the Lord would take care of them when in fact the Lord wanted them to take care of themselves.
        While this is an excellent post in pointing out how Christians have and are suffering a tribulation....where does it say in the bible we have to take care of ourselves?

        Matthew 6

        31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.


        The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.

        God bless
        "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by moonglow View Post
          The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.
          What that verse is talking about is the practice that the early Christians had of sharing possessions and helping the poor.
          What he is warning about is people holding back because they are worried about their own future.
          It is ridiculous to think we are not to provide for ourselves.
          We should provide for ourselves and have enough to help others.
          Voluntarily having a lack, just burdens everyone else.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
            By "tribulation", I assume you mean Daniel's Seventieth "Seven"? (And no, I'm not a Pre-Wrather, in case you recognize that phrase from Marvin Rosenthal's book. )

            To be totally honest, that's an issue that I'm actually exploring right now. I've always assumed the seven seals are all contained within that magic seven years pretty much because that's just the most popular line of thought. If there are reasons to believe to the contrary (that don't involve allegorizing any Scriptures), I'm certainly open to ideas. Do you have any to suggest?
            By "tribulation", I mean the 42 month period the beast the beast "is given to continue". I as of right now do not see anything in the first five seals that show me whether they are opened before or after the beast's 42 month reign. Therefore I do not see that the verse you quoted from Joel 2 necessary proves that the rapture must occur after the reign of the beast. Since the 144,000 are sealed after the moon turning red leads me to believe God's full wrath does not begin with the opening of the sixth seal.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by cwb View Post
              By "tribulation", I mean the 42 month period the beast the beast "is given to continue". I as of right now do not see anything in the first five seals that show me whether they are opened before or after the beast's 42 month reign. Therefore I do not see that the verse you quoted from Joel 2 necessary proves that the rapture must occur after the reign of the beast. Since the 144,000 are sealed after the moon turning red leads me to believe God's full wrath does not begin with the opening of the sixth seal.
              I would actually suggest that the Day of the Lord wrath begins shortly after the Sixth Seal is opened.
              ----------------------------------------------
              When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                I would actually suggest that the Day of the Lord wrath begins shortly after the Sixth Seal is opened.
                Are you saying that the sixth seal is opened after the beast's 42 month reign? If so, why do you believe that? From reading the first 5 seals, I do not see that the beasts reign has even begun before the sixth seal is opened.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by cwb View Post
                  Are you saying that the sixth seal is opened after the beast's 42 month reign? If so, why do you believe that? From reading the first 5 seals, I do not see that the beasts reign has even begun before the sixth seal is opened.
                  Who do you think instigated the martyring of the saints in the Fifth Seal?
                  ----------------------------------------------
                  When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                    Who do you think instigated the martyring of the saints in the Fifth Seal?
                    Saints have been martyred in the first century. They have also been martyred in the second century, fifth century, 15th century and 21st century and all centuries in between. I have always read the fifth seal to be talking about all the saints who were murdered since the first century.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ethnikos View Post
                      What that verse is talking about is the practice that the early Christians had of sharing possessions and helping the poor.
                      What he is warning about is people holding back because they are worried about their own future.
                      It is ridiculous to think we are not to provide for ourselves.
                      We should provide for ourselves and have enough to help others.
                      Voluntarily having a lack, just burdens everyone else.
                      Um no...I think you have the time line there confused. This is Jesus talking...the first Christian churches didn't even start to get set up until after He ascended to Heaven. THEN they were willing sharing with each other, but it wasn't required to do that at all...there was no warning in the passage I posted except to not worry about where your food and drink came from...

                      Anyway read the entire passage in content..it has totally nothing to do with the churches...since they didn't exist yet. This is about how God provides FOR us! Individually...

                      Matthew 6

                      25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

                      28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

                      31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.


                      Remember any book in the bible titled Matthew, Mark, Luke or John is about Jesus' life and His teachings. So the first churches aren't starting to get set up until after these books..in Acts and on.

                      There are more passages on God providing for us also.

                      Again this is Jesus talking:

                      Matthew 7

                      7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

                      9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.


                      And there are many examples in both the Old Testament and the New where God literally provided food for those in need. He fed the Hebrew bread from Heaven when they were out in the desert and had no food...He provided water from a stone. A prophet was sent to a woman and her son during a famine and the Lord provided food for them all so they didn't starve. It goes on and on and on...there is no scriptures saying we just have to fend for ourselves especially during the worse possible time in history! No verse that says during the tribulation God will not provide for us and we have to go it alone.

                      God bless
                      "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cwb View Post
                        Saints have been martyred in the first century. They have also been martyred in the second century, fifth century, 15th century and 21st century and all centuries in between. I have always read the fifth seal to be talking about all the saints who were murdered since the first century.
                        Oh, OK, well see, that issue of precisely when the seals actually begin is precisely what I'm looking into right now, so to be totally honest, I'm not really ready to answer that yet. In the past, I would have said something along the lines of "Well, the Antichrist kills them during the Tribulation", which I suspect is what most people here would say, but I want to investigate this more before I just start spewing opinions about it. It might be a couple of days or more before I feel ready. (It took me over a year to decide where I stand regarding the Rapture. )
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                          No one said you were lazy...I said it seems really odd to want to trade this...and yes I know its stressful...to worry about losing your head literally. Seems like twisted thinking to me! Have you done the research to see how the schools were in the baby boomer days to know if we had it easier or not? The only difference may be having to wear an ID...but that depends on which school someone went too. But seriously...what is so horrible about wearing an ID? And yes we had to do all that studying you have to do now also and take the same tests or similar tests. And yes I got detention also! So did alot of other kids...we survived. In fact back then they also spanked us with boards! Shocking at that may sound...I dated a guy in high school that got in trouble for something and had to get 'swats' by the principle at age 16! with a board! Not some little wimpy board either. The fact in the schools is American are doing very badly compared to other countries. 20/20 did a show on it awhile back...its quite eye opening...Stupid in America

                          At any rate..my concern is actually wondering if you are suffering from depression right now to even be thinking this way. If the tribulation started you would be running for your life..NOT preaching and witnessing! If you had read some of this thread you would see those that follow the beast are already lost...their names are not written in the book of life...there is no witnessing to them to save them...

                          Revelation 13

                          5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
                          9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

                          I mean its like asking to enter hell instead of having to do school work...you just have no idea what you are asking for here...the beast is given all authority over us!

                          God bless
                          Exactly, all who worship him are not in the Book of Life. The earth won't be filled with Christians and AntiChrist followers only. So saying there wil be no one left to witness to is a misinterpretation of the Scripture. Also, I never said when the tribulation starts, I said when it I know it begins. So there will be plenty of time to witness to my classmates.

                          Also, I don't see how someone can be depressed when they just want to be done with pointless tasks. Yes, I am depressed, I want to hang out with my friends, strengthen my relationship with the Lord, and not havr to do essays. If this was just me now, I would be anything but depressed.

                          Comment


                          • RE: hiding

                            I have been reading the posts here and had somethings to add to the whole hiding at the 'end times'. I don't believe God gave us brains and intended us not to use them. I believe even the word speaks on being prepared. The word also speaks on lack of knowledge is how his people perish, as nicely displayed on someones ending posts. You know what struck me as interesting in the word Matt. 24:16 speaks of those in Judea fleeing to the mountains and the next verse as one on the roof top not to come down,ect. I believe we are all leading and living different individual lives with specific Godly purposes and each of our deaths will be different. Wether it be by antichrist police delivering us up to be afflicted andn killed(as in matt. 24:9 speaks of) or in the wilderness by a bear attack or old age as those fleeing to the mountains as in matt. 16 speaks of or by getting by a bus tomorrow OR by Matt. 24:13 enduring to the end....we all are weaved in HIS plan with different plans for our lives and all are equally important. I personally think the main thing for me is to get closer to him through prayer & his word AND I study & practice survival skills and keep an up to date emergency gear pack...just in case...what could it hurt!? Maybe I'll be here when the end comes and will flee to the mountains or maybe I'll be in what I think is the wrong place at the wrong time & be carried up to the police & killed or maybe endure to the end......

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                              While this is an excellent post in pointing out how Christians have and are suffering a tribulation....where does it say in the bible we have to take care of ourselves?

                              Matthew 6

                              31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

                              The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.

                              God bless
                              God does take care of our needs above and beyond what we think or ask.
                              But the Word of God differentiates specifically between being wise or foolish.
                              Like the wise servant in Matt. 24, we should provide for our households.
                              Being prepared for the future is one way we provide.
                              To sit while I have the opportunity to lay up for my family and friends would be sinful.
                              I've been buying silver for several years. God spoke to me and told me too do that. I don't have a clue as to how it will help me in the future.
                              I also raise vegetables. My wife and I freeze and can things we grow.
                              I trust the Lord but trust without obedience is faulty to say the least.
                              We have to use common sense.
                              In Christ,
                              Dave


                              Revelations 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                                Um no...I think you have the time line there confused. This is Jesus talking...the first Christian churches didn't even start to get set up until after He ascended to Heaven. THEN they were willing sharing with each other, but it wasn't required to do that at all...there was no warning in the passage I posted except to not worry about where your food and drink came from...
                                Anyway read the entire passage in content..it has totally nothing to do with the churches...since they didn't exist yet. This is about how God provides FOR us! Individually...
                                You have to go all the way back to the beginning of the chapter.
                                1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

                                Jesus did not establish the church or a church? There are nice quotes from Jesus in the Gospels that were to be disseminated to the wider world but they come out of his teaching that was creating a church.

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