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  • #16
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    Then it is as i said in posting #2. You have a strange way with language. How, pray tell us, does someone who "will not experience death" be "resurrected"?

    And later you write;



    But the issue in your first posting was "children of the resurrection". Resurrection has to do with a body dead and returned to the elements being enlivened again. Your first posting does not address the enlivening of the spirit of man at rebirth.

    If we can get past that logic, maybe we can go further.


    But resurrection has to do with corpses! You did not produce this scripture from John in your initial posting. You introduced "children of the resurrection" attaining to the next age from Luke, and then go on to say that they "will not experience death." I have seldom seen such befuddlement.
    I don't know how you are not seeing this. The glorified saints have immortal eternal bodies in the age to come - that is why they will not "die any more." Simple!

    The “natural” mortal bodies we currently possess cannot inherit the new earth because they are inadequate and unfitted for the eternal state. The
    first body is Adamic and therefore sinful, the second is heavenly and consequently perfect, and of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:40-47 confirms,
    “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

    Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:40-47 that our earthly bodies are filled with “
    corruption,” “dishonour” and “weakness.” The “celestial” ones on the other hand are heavenly, perfect and incorruptible. In the resurrection the “natural” or “earthy” is marvellously “raised a spiritual body,” “in glory,” “in power” and in “immortality.” This is glorification or the perfection or redemption of our bodies. The believer is not truly whole or complete until we have our glorified, incorruptible, immortal bodies. It is in these new bodies that we live in eternity on the new earth, where God intended mankind to live in perfect communion with Him.

    Man’s whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible inner man is not only changed (as in conversion), but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s Coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

    Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

    The kingdom age to come (after this age) is eternal. It is not governed by time as our age. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns. The said kingdom is also incorrupt. Every vestige of the fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. Plainly: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence).” This eliminates the oft stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal will inhabit it.

    If the curse continued on the new earth then the earth would be corrupt, but it isn't. The reason we need glorified is because the earth needs glorified. The new earth ushers in the eternal state. Romans 8 tells us it is free from the bondage of corruption [all the fruit of the fall]. It is for glorified (incorruptible) beings only. Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the creature and creation is longing for the Coming of Christ when creation will finally “be delivered from the bondage of corruption.” It is “waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.” The glorifying of man occurs at the same time as the glorifying of creation. This is the return of Christ.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Then it is as i said in posting #2. You have a strange way with language. How, pray tell us, does someone who "will not experience death" be "resurrected"?

      And later you write;

      But the issue in your first posting was "children of the resurrection". Resurrection has to do with a body dead and returned to the elements being enlivened again. Your first posting does not address the enlivening of the spirit of man at rebirth.

      If we can get past that logic, maybe we can go further.

      But resurrection has to do with corpses! You did not produce this scripture from John in your initial posting. You introduced "children of the resurrection" attaining to the next age from Luke, and then go on to say that they "will not experience death." I have seldom seen such befuddlement.
      Is it really befuddlement that keeps you from understanding or is it preconceived opinion that you seem unable to let go?

      Christ tells us the time is NOW, in this age that "the dead" hear His voice and live. Listen to the words of Christ and believe. "He that heareth my word, and believeth...hath everlasting life...is passed from death unto life."

      John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

      That time when the dead hear His voice is in this age, "The hour...now is...the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God...and live." In this age physical corpses do not hear the voice of Christ, but those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" do. They are the spiritually dead who hear His voice and pass from dead in trespasses and sins to life in Christ. Not physical life but Spiritual life.

      John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

      Since they are the children of the resurrection, having passed from dead in trespasses and sins to spiritual life in Christ, they are from that moment given life everlasting, and will never die. Then at the end of this age, when Christ comes again "all in the graves shall hear His voice"...did you notice, not "the dead in trespasses and sins", but ALL the corpses in the graves will be bodily resurrected. The children of the resurrection, having partaken of the first resurrection in Christ now receive their glorified, resurrected bodies, but the rest "unto the resurrection of damnation."

      John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

        Originally posted by wpm View Post
        I will take your avoidance as an admission that you have no rebuttal.
        This is another fallacious argument: that not posting while flying 150 people 2105 nautical miles is any kind of admission at all. While I was making a thousand dollars today, and a very smooth landing in a crosswind at one of the busiest airports in the world - I could not rebut your silly, perpetual, irritating complaint which I have already rebutted a hundred times over.

        Your fight is with Scripture.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

          Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
          Your fight is with Scripture.
          I think he is winning, and coming into land at the right airport and runway....despite the #$%@ storm blowing in from the north.
          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

            Originally posted by RogerW View Post
            Is it really befuddlement that keeps you from understanding or is it preconceived opinion that you seem unable to let go?

            Christ tells us the time is NOW, in this age that "the dead" hear His voice and live. Listen to the words of Christ and believe. "He that heareth my word, and believeth...hath everlasting life...is passed from death unto life."

            John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

            That time when the dead hear His voice is in this age, "The hour...now is...the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God...and live." In this age physical corpses do not hear the voice of Christ, but those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" do. They are the spiritually dead who hear His voice and pass from dead in trespasses and sins to life in Christ. Not physical life but Spiritual life.

            John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

            Since they are the children of the resurrection, having passed from dead in trespasses and sins to spiritual life in Christ, they are from that moment given life everlasting, and will never die. Then at the end of this age, when Christ comes again "all in the graves shall hear His voice"...did you notice, not "the dead in trespasses and sins", but ALL the corpses in the graves will be bodily resurrected. The children of the resurrection, having partaken of the first resurrection in Christ now receive their glorified, resurrected bodies, but the rest "unto the resurrection of damnation."

            John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
            Your posting #1 concerns Luke 20 and Luke 21. The context was attaining to the next age after marrying 7 different women and whose wife she is in resurrection. So here is my question again.

            "How, pray tell us, does someone who 'will not experience death' be 'resurrected'?"

            If you insist on diverting the argument to the Gospel of John and the new birth of the spirit of man we can go no further. Is it not a measure of your doctrine that you cannot answer my question? May the reader judge.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

              Sorry for the poor choice of words Marcus.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                The children of the resurrection begin their eternal resurrection life in this age. And because they have resurrection life, bodily death does not render them without life in Christ. To say "they will not experience death", or "they will not die any more" both accurately describe the children of the resurrection.

                Christ is not speaking of physical corpses when He says, "the hour NOW is, when the dead shall hear the voice".

                John 5:24-27 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

                These are the children of the resurrection, who having heard His voice have passed from death unto life. Because they have entered into eternal life in this age. Death for them has been swallowed up in victory, for even though their bodies die, they live with Christ now, in this age, and in the age to come they will live with Christ throughout eternity.
                I see my mistake. I unwittingly answered you as wpm. I must apologize for this.

                Nevertheless, my friend, I must repeat, , wpm addresses Luke 20, not John 5. If you would like to agree or differ on John 5 why not start a thread with your understanding of it. Do you find fault with me because I am faithful to wpm's subject of a man who was one flesh with seven women and what becomes of him in the resurrection - a solution to the death of the flesh?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                  Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
                  This is another fallacious argument: that not posting while flying 150 people 2105 nautical miles is any kind of admission at all. While I was making a thousand dollars today, and a very smooth landing in a crosswind at one of the busiest airports in the world - I could not rebut your silly, perpetual, irritating complaint which I have already rebutted a hundred times over.

                  Your fight is with Scripture.
                  I know the feeling M O'R. Four or five brutal days with 12+ hour duty times, 11+ hours time zone change and Winter Ops can get one left out of a crucial thread, AND be castigated for it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                    Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
                    Your fight is with Scripture.
                    Not only are you constantly avoiding repeated NT Scripture on this board, but you are also stealing my phrases. LOL. I think the phrase is more apt for yourself. Until you address the subject and the Scriptures I cannot but conclude you have nothing to refute what I am saying.
                    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                    WPM

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                      Originally posted by wpm View Post
                      Not only are you constantly avoiding repeated NT Scripture on this board, but you are also stealing my phrases. LOL. I think the phrase is more apt for yourself. Until you address the subject and the Scriptures I cannot but conclude you have nothing to refute what I am saying.
                      Nope, again your many assumptions prove erroneous. Las Vegas, Miami, and then Nashville. I'll be too busy being of service to others to participate in yet another worthless thread of yours which is totally fruitless.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                        Conclusion

                        It would seem apparent that Premils avoidance of the texts/arguments in this thread, whilst employing petty insults is testimony that Amil is on strong ground here. I have seen a pattern over yrs on these forums, whatever NT Scripture Amils present and whatever arguments are presented it is all dismissed on the premise "what saith Rev 20, Zech 14 or Isa 65." This shows the fragility of Premil, especially when those said texts don't say what Premil suggests. This should cause any student watching on to question the theory. So far there has been no sensible rebuttal to this thesis.
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                          Because wpm holds a doctrine that excludes large amounts of prophecy, he is able, with a few verses in Luke, to show his belief. But on examination, these few verses hold no such doctrine. Then, when called to justify his belief, he diverts the discussion to John, as do some of his adherents. Let us examine his posting #1's preamble, in which he immediately comes to conclusions that are the basis for further writing. He writes in posting #1, modified only in layout by me, to show the various conclusions he reaches based on three verses in Luke 20.

                          wpm posting #1
                          Christ was asked a hypothetical question about a woman who had 7 husbands, all of which died along with herself. Luke 20:33 records: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

                          Christ tells us in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy(or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
                          1. When it says that those that are worthy to inherit the age to come will not experience death .... .
                          2. ... we know that we are looking at the eternal state.
                          3. There is no other age that is exempt from the blight of death. This indeed will be a glorious day.
                          4. There can be no doubt that we are looking at the introduction of the new heavens and the new earth.
                          5. Attaining unto the age to come is not automatic; it is earned.
                          6. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared.
                          7. He is Coming alone for His people.
                          8. This is clearly confirmed in this text.
                          9. The age to come is an age exclusively reserved for “the children of God.”
                          10. Whilst the wicked are not the main focus of this particular text we can still discern that they are excluded from the age to come.
                          11. They are judged, banished from His presence and damned to eternal punishment when He appears.
                          12. There are therefore two peoples at Christ’s appearing, one that is rewarded and one that is reprobated.
                          Neither a cursory nor studious reading of these verses could never lead to such conclusions. So my argument should win right there. But let us examine them in detail.

                          1. When it says that those that are worthy to inherit the age to come will not experience death .... .
                          This is the first and only question I asked him to substantiate for it contains a massive contradiction. He maintains that these "children of the resurrection" will not experience death. But the very fact that they are "born" out of resurrection means that they HAD TO HAVE DIED. Resurrection is the mating together of the sundered parts of man on the surface of the earth. The spirit, which returned to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), returns to the dusty man (Lk.8:55). The soul, kept in Hades (Act.2:27, 31), rises to join the dusty body (1st Ki.17:22). Resurrection in scripture always concerns the body. One CANNOT be resurrected without dying!

                          2. ... we know that we are looking at the eternal state.
                          How do we know that? What evidence in the 3 verses from Luke 20 give that indication. This statement is without foundation from these verses. Is this not a measure of wpm's exegesis in that he is able, without the slightest proof, to reach such a momentous conclusion.

                          3. There is no other age that is exempt from the blight of death. This indeed will be a glorious day.
                          Firstly, he is correct ONLY IF the next age is the eternal state - which he has pointedly NOT PROVED. Thus, this statement has no grounds. Secondly, the next age AFTER Christ's return has plenty of death. After 1'000 years Satan is let lose and a huge rebellion with attendant slaughter occurs. And in this 1'000 years "the rest of the dead do not live", so this period is marked by an initial bliss for mankind in general under the "rule of the rod of iron" (which would cause the death of certain worthy criminals), ENDING in a slaughter, FOLLOWED by the White Throne before which ALL the rest of the dead STAND (in resurrection) seeing as Hades gives up her dead at this time. This rebellion of Satan's cannot be confused with the great battle of Revelation 19 because in Revelation 19 the Beast is the instigator and in Revelation 20 Gog and Magog are instigators. Added to this, details of the battle are different (see Ezekiel 38).

                          4. There can be no doubt that we are looking at the introduction of the new heavens and the new earth.
                          On what basis is there NO DOUBT? The New Heavens and New Earth can only follow the White Throne and Him Who is upon it when the old heavens and earth flee from His countenance. Other verses might allude to this, but certainly not these verses from Luke 20.

                          5. Attaining unto the age to come is not automatic; it is earned.
                          This is correct. It is stated so in the verses provided and other scriptures. "Attaining" implies effort and achievement by works.

                          6. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared.
                          Do these verses say that? The answer is a resounding NO! And added to this, scripture clearly shows that the Lord comes WHETHER ONE IS READY OR NOT! (Matt.24:43, 25:13; Mk13:33, 35; Lk.12:38).

                          7. He is Coming alone for His people.
                          Not so! Dear reader, do you think those verses in Luke show that He comes "alone" for His people? Scripture shows that He is coming to take a kingdom for Himself. That He is coming to do battle with the Beast and his army. That He is coming to be vindicated before those who pierced Him. That He is coming to dwell among those who pierced Him. That He is coming to set up a government by "the rod of iron" over all the earth. That He is coming to judge the living. That the kingdoms of men BECOME the Kingdom of our dear Lord Jesus.

                          8. This is clearly confirmed in this text.
                          Is it dear reader?

                          9. The age to come is an age exclusively reserved for “the children of God.”
                          Does the text he provided show this. Or is it an answer to the question "which wife will be his in the resurrection"? Marriage is two becoming "one flesh". The resurrection is a matter of the flesh (Lk.24:39). The question centered around a Jew who was obliged to take his brother's wife if his brother died without producing seed for the inheritance of the Good Land (Deut.25:5-6). That is, the question centered around a man under the Law of Moses. That makes him a Jew. And the Jews reject Christ. But the Lord's answer did not deny that the JEW will be in the Kingdom. It AFFIRMS it. It only expands further from the Jew who lost the kingdom (Matt.21:43) to the "children of God" - those "born again" of the Holy Spirit. That is, there are those who did not ATTAIN to the Kingdom (the Jew) AND those who DID ATTAIN to the Kingdom. The meaning is clear then. The Kingdom will contain (i) the living of the nations, (ii) the Jews and (iii) the Christians BUT (iv) ONLY CERTAIN WILL RULE - those who ATTAINED.

                          10. Whilst the wicked are not the main focus of this particular text we can still discern that they are excluded from the age to come.
                          Dear Reader, are the "wicked" alluded to in these verses? I see no mention of them here! Elsewhere in scripture - sure, BUT HERE... ???

                          11. They are judged, banished from His presence and damned to eternal punishment when He appears.
                          In this text from Luke? - I think not!

                          12. There are therefore two peoples at Christ’s appearing, one that is rewarded and one that is reprobated.
                          From this text of Luke three people are in view. (1) The Jew who had seven wives and is resurrected. (2) The "children of the resurrection" who are "children of God" by rebirth. (3) Those of the "children of God" who ATTAIN. The text implies that not all will attain. This is supported in the parables of the diligent and slothful servants, and the Churches of Revelation 2 and 3. Within this text there are at least 3 peoples.

                          It might seem a tedious task which I have set my hand to, but the hypothesis that the next age is the eternal state was based on these 12 statements. Do you think wpm has dealt accurately enough with the scriptures he provided for this hypothesis? Or do you think he asks too much of you to come to his conclusion?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            This is the first and only question I asked him to substantiate for it contains a massive contradiction. He maintains that these "children of the resurrection" will not experience death. But the very fact that they are "born" out of resurrection means that they HAD TO HAVE DIED. Resurrection is the mating together of the sundered parts of man on the surface of the earth. The spirit, which returned to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), returns to the dusty man (Lk.8:55). The soul, kept in Hades (Act.2:27, 31), rises to join the dusty body (1st Ki.17:22). Resurrection in scripture always concerns the body. One CANNOT be resurrected without dying!
                            I don’t believe you are grasping what the text is saying. The cessation of death is related to the age to come. It is saying that the elect entering the eternal age don’t “die any more” – “for they are equal unto the angels.” This is talking about glorification. I have wrote several posts addressing this, which you have repeatedly ignored. When Jesus comes He destroys the wicked and corruption and He glorifies the elect and this earth.

                            How do we know that? What evidence in the 3 verses from Luke 20 give that indication. This statement is without foundation from these verses. Is this not a measure of wpm's exegesis in that he is able, without the slightest proof, to reach such a momentous conclusion.
                            The text is contrasting “this age” now and “that age” which is to come. There is no 3rd intermediary age. It is describing time and eternity. It is talking about this current sin-cursed earth and it is comparing it to the new perfect earth which has been purged of every vestige of the fall. This age is marked by sin, death and corruption, whereas the age to come is epitomized by glorification, perfection and righteousness.

                            I have presented you with passages that prove that death is destroyed at the Second Coming. You have not responded to any of them.

                            Firstly, he is correct ONLY IF the next age is the eternal state - which he has pointedly NOT PROVED. Thus, this statement has no grounds. Secondly, the next age AFTER Christ's return has plenty of death. After 1'000 years Satan is let lose and a huge rebellion with attendant slaughter occurs. And in this 1'000 years "the rest of the dead do not live", so this period is marked by an initial bliss for mankind in general under the "rule of the rod of iron" (which would cause the death of certain worthy criminals), ENDING in a slaughter, FOLLOWED by the White Throne before which ALL the rest of the dead STAND (in resurrection) seeing as Hades gives up her dead at this time. This rebellion of Satan's cannot be confused with the great battle of Revelation 19 because in Revelation 19 the Beast is the instigator and in Revelation 20 Gog and Magog are instigators. Added to this, details of the battle are different (see Ezekiel 38).
                            This is based solely on a chronological approach to Revelation, but this doesn't fit. Revelation contains several recapitulations. Rev 20 commences the last of these going right back to the "first resurrection" Christ. Anyway, there is not a single mention of this supposed future millennial age anywhere else in Scripture. Why did Christ or the Apostles talk about such an age? Because it is not going to happen.

                            On what basis is there NO DOUBT? The New Heavens and New Earth can only follow the White Throne and Him Who is upon it when the old heavens and earth flee from His countenance. Other verses might allude to this, but certainly not these verses from Luke 20.
                            I refer you back to the questions I previously presented and which you previously ignored.

                            Firstly, does the new heavens and a new earth arrive at the beginning of the millennium or after according to the book of Revelation? This is not a difficult one!!!
                            Secondly, how can there be no tears on the new earth and yet there still be death? That is nonsensical and absurd.


                            Do these verses say that? The answer is a resounding NO! And added to this, scripture clearly shows that the Lord comes WHETHER ONE IS READY OR NOT! (Matt.24:43, 25:13; Mk13:33, 35; Lk.12:38).
                            I said: “Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared,” to which you disagreed. I thought this was a fundamental of the faith? Do you think He is Coming to receive the wicked? I am shocked at your disagreement here. Jesus said in Matt 25:10: “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

                            Jesus said in Luke 12:39-40: “And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”

                            Not so! Dear reader, do you think those verses in Luke show that He comes "alone" for His people? Scripture shows that He is coming to take a kingdom for Himself. That He is coming to do battle with the Beast and his army. That He is coming to be vindicated before those who pierced Him. That He is coming to dwell among those who pierced Him. That He is coming to set up a government by "the rod of iron" over all the earth. That He is coming to judge the living. That the kingdoms of men BECOME the Kingdom of our dear Lord Jesus.
                            He will judge the living and the dead when He Comes

                            He is coming to rescue his elect, and destroy the wicked.

                            You say that “He is coming to judge the living.” 2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when Adam's race will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

                            Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

                            Rod of iron

                            Rather than rewarding the wicked for their rebellion against Him, Christ comes to destroy them. He is not coming to pat them on the back or give them a second chance but “smite the nations.” In fact the accompanying wording couldn’t be clearer in painting the destructive nature of Christ’s return in Rev 19:15: out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

                            He is then going to destroy them in “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

                            Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance Revelation 2:26-27 as support for their view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. They normally import a meaning into the phrase he shall rule them with a rod of iron which is not in, or suggested in, the passage. They are under the impression that the saints will be reigning with Christ over unbelieving subjugated nations for a period of 1,000 years after the Coming of Christ. They believe these nations will be subdued under the feet of Christ and the ruling saints. They depict this reign as a prolonged rule of the glorified saints over the conquered rebellious nations. Premils argue that God ushers these rebellious nations unto the new earth into a supposed future millennium where they will be carefully supervised.

                            This belief is in conflict with Scripture and the detail of the narrative here in Revelation 2 which shows Christ totally destroying them. The manner of which will be as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers.” Whilst those that reject Christ will be put down at His Coming there is no teaching anywhere in the Word that states this would last 1,000 years. This reading rather than suggesting the instigation of a future millennial reign is a poignant picture of the final separation that occurs at the Second Advent. Here Christ undertakes the separation of the nations.

                            Does the text he provided show this. Or is it an answer to the question "which wife will be his in the resurrection"? Marriage is two becoming "one flesh". The resurrection is a matter of the flesh (Lk.24:39). The question centered around a Jew who was obliged to take his brother's wife if his brother died without producing seed for the inheritance of the Good Land (Deut.25:5-6). That is, the question centered around a man under the Law of Moses. That makes him a Jew. And the Jews reject Christ. But the Lord's answer did not deny that the JEW will be in the Kingdom. It AFFIRMS it. It only expands further from the Jew who lost the kingdom (Matt.21:43) to the "children of God" - those "born again" of the Holy Spirit. That is, there are those who did not ATTAIN to the Kingdom (the Jew) AND those who DID ATTAIN to the Kingdom. The meaning is clear then. The Kingdom will contain (i) the living of the nations, (ii) the Jews and (iii) the Christians BUT (iv) ONLY CERTAIN WILL RULE - those who ATTAINED.
                            You are fighting with Scripture here. Let the Bible speak for itself. There is only a certain type of person that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is those who have a personal relationship with Christ ("the children of God"). There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

                            Christ tells us in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”


                            Dear Reader, are the "wicked" alluded to in these verses? I see no mention of them here! Elsewhere in scripture - sure, BUT HERE... ???
                            I actually said the wicked are "excluded" not "alluded to." LOL. You need to read my posts a little slower. The age/kingdom approaching does not have any unsaved or mortals in it. As I showed you above, it is solely and exclusively for the glorified elect saints.

                            In this text from Luke? - I think not!
                            It is actually yourself that has tried to divert us away from the main text with the common Premil mantra of: "what saith Rev 20."

                            From this text of Luke three people are in view. (1) The Jew who had seven wives and is resurrected. (2) The "children of the resurrection" who are "children of God" by rebirth. (3) Those of the "children of God" who ATTAIN. The text implies that not all will attain. This is supported in the parables of the diligent and slothful servants, and the Churches of Revelation 2 and 3. Within this text there are at least 3 peoples.

                            It might seem a tedious task which I have set my hand to, but the hypothesis that the next age is the eternal state was based on these 12 statements. Do you think wpm has dealt accurately enough with the scriptures he provided for this hypothesis? Or do you think he asks too much of you to come to his conclusion?

                            The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove. As yet you have proved nothing in relation to your '3 peoples theory'. Again, the age to come is for the elect alone, and it is perfect.
                            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                            WPM

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                            • #29
                              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                              Originally posted by wpm View Post
                              Conclusion

                              I have seen a pattern over yrs on these forums, whatever NT Scripture Amils present and whatever arguments are presented it is all dismissed on the premise "what saith Rev 20, Zech 14 or Isa 65." This shows the fragility of Premil, especially when those said texts don't say what Premil suggests. This should cause any student watching on to question the theory. So far there has been no sensible rebuttal to this thesis.
                              I noticed the same thing Paul. I choose to listen more closely to what Jesus and the rest of the NT says plainly, rather than try and decifer the symbology of Revelation etc.
                              I believe the Church had a solid foundation regarding these matters before Revelation came along. Our NT chooses not to remind of us of Isiah, Zech, etc when it comes to what we are to expect regarding these last days.
                              What we are to expect is days like Noah, and a final righteous Judgment that Father God has fixed, resulting in the expectation of Peter, of a NHNE, where only righteousness dwells.


                              Edit..
                              Is the book of Rev the word of God?.....yes it is, and should be understood only when one is standing on the words of Jesus and his Apostles before Rev was written. Hope that makes sense.
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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                              • #30
                                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                                Originally posted by wpm View Post
                                It would seem apparent that Premils avoidance of the texts/arguments in this thread, whilst employing petty insults is testimony that Amil is on strong ground here.
                                This is yet another fallacy in arguments: appealing to the majority.

                                The fact is, that while most on this board support your position, placate you, cater to you, and even praise you, Amillennialism is a distinct minority opinion in America for a reason: you have to ignore or dismiss so much prophecy in order to keep yours intact.

                                The fact that you concentrate solely on NT verses for the church leads you to miss where the Millennium is addressed to the Jews: which is mostly in the Old Testament. Any evidence which has been put up time and time again, you simply dismiss. You act as Judge and Jury for the evidence and pronounce yourself superior. Putting up arguments which are addressed to the Church, you beg any to refute the Gospel. However this is a straw man approach, which is another fallacy in arguments.

                                There is nothing beneficial in trying to conduct an argument with someone who has an agenda, acts as arbiter, and imposes rules outside of normal debate. You are not here to discuss or allow weight to be compared to any argument than your own. It is not that no one can, it's that there is no persuading someone with an axe to grind and the time to waste putting out hundreds of posts all saying the same thing.

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