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  • #31
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
    The fact that you concentrate solely on NT verses for the church leads you to miss where the Millennium is addressed to the Jews: which is mostly in the Old Testament.
    I would think the NT was addressed to Jews. The believing Jews at the time ,which is the Church, clearly understood that in these last days God spoke to us through his only begotton Son.....and it saves and delivers truth to all who believe.

    Those believing Jews were slow to believe and comprehend the truth that is in Christ Jesus, even with the OT at their disposal.....but believe they did.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

      The NT concerns and addresses believers in Jesus. The NT does not address the Jews who eschew it. The NT is for those seeking answers in Christ Jesus and then leads the believer in how to walk in faith. The majority of the Jews even then when the NT was written rejected Jesus as their Messiah. While all the earliest Christians were Jews, and they continued all the Judaic laws in their Christian walk; the real expanse at the time the Gospel accounts were written was from the influx of Gentiles.

      The OT concerns and addresses the Jews. God has already seen that the Jews would reject the Son, and the prophecy to bring a remnant back to Him has already been written. That is why most of the Millennium passages which can be discerned in prophecy, originate outside of the NT in the OT prophets. If you want to see prophecy which addresses the Jews who don't believe in Jesus, you have to look at the Old Testament.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

        Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
        This is yet another fallacy in arguments: appealing to the majority.

        The fact is, that while most on this board support your position, placate you, cater to you, and even praise you, Amillennialism is a distinct minority opinion in America for a reason: you have to ignore or dismiss so much prophecy in order to keep yours intact.

        The fact that you concentrate solely on NT verses for the church leads you to miss where the Millennium is addressed to the Jews: which is mostly in the Old Testament. Any evidence which has been put up time and time again, you simply dismiss. You act as Judge and Jury for the evidence and pronounce yourself superior. Putting up arguments which are addressed to the Church, you beg any to refute the Gospel. However this is a straw man approach, which is another fallacy in arguments.

        There is nothing beneficial in trying to conduct an argument with someone who has an agenda, acts as arbiter, and imposes rules outside of normal debate. You are not here to discuss or allow weight to be compared to any argument than your own. It is not that no one can, it's that there is no persuading someone with an axe to grind and the time to waste putting out hundreds of posts all saying the same thing.
        Please refrain from derailing this thread. You have made no effort to address the biblical arguments. Thread after thread sees you avoiding the relevant texts and attached arguments, and hurling slurs. Your MO is avoidance, evasion and jibes. If you can't refute the OP then admit it and move on.
        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

        WPM

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

          Originally posted by Marcus O'Reillius View Post
          The NT concerns and addresses believers in Jesus. The NT does not address the Jews who eschew it. The NT is for those seeking answers in Christ Jesus and then leads the believer in how to walk in faith. The majority of the Jews even then when the NT was written rejected Jesus as their Messiah. While all the earliest Christians were Jews, and they continued all the Judaic laws in their Christian walk; the real expanse at the time the Gospel accounts were written was from the influx of Gentiles.

          The OT concerns and addresses the Jews. God has already seen that the Jews would reject the Son, and the prophecy to bring a remnant back to Him has already been written. That is why most of the Millennium passages which can be discerned in prophecy, originate outside of the NT in the OT prophets. If you want to see prophecy which addresses the Jews who don't believe in Jesus, you have to look at the Old Testament.
          Calvary is seen to be the event that caused the spiritual merging of the believing Jew and Gentile, and that demolished forever the distinction that separated them. Scripture demolishes the notion that God has two distinct peoples (Jews and Gentiles), which will come to Him in two different ways and in two different time periods. Such is not the case and will not be the case in the future. Notwithstanding, there may undoubtedly be a greater ingathering of Jews in the days preceding the glorious Second Advent than there previously has been since the cross, however, it will be through the sole mechanism ordained of God of God – the Church of Jesus Christ.

          Galatians 3:28-29 says, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: For ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

          Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

          The dispensationalist says there is a difference between natural Israel and the natural Gentile today, however, Scripture explicitly says NO. Romans 10:12-13 says, there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

          There are no ethnicities within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colours or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Saviour. The distinction is rather between those that are born of God and are of the household of faith (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles) and those that are Christ rejecting and consequently of their father the devil and are therefore of the flesh (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles). God’s only vehicle for communion and the revelation of Himself on this earth is His body – the temple – the Church. This body, the Church, is the sole body ordained of God for the proclamation and defence of the Word of God, and has Christ as its supreme ruling Head.

          Jew and Gentile (Old Testament and New), alike have therefore become one body through the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood on Calvary. They are now “fellowcitizens” awaiting the approaching all-consummating return of Christ. Colossians 3:11-12, 15, says, there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering … And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body.”

          The human body, so harmoniously fitted together, is presented in Scripture as a beautiful picture of the mystical union between Christ and the Church. By virtue of that union, the child of God enjoys spiritual unity and communion with that body of believers. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 says, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

          The instrument God uses to bind the believer to Christ is the Holy Spirit. The true believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is therefore joined to Christ through the work of the Spirit. The Bible says, “He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (I Corinthians 6:17). Every believer united to Christ is thus united to His brethren by the Spirit, all being members of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:16 says, the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth.”

          Every member has a unique part to play in the development of the body. None are there by chance, all have been the focus of God’s special grace and mercy, being chosen in Christ and purchased by His precious blood. Romans 12:4-5 says, For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

          The dispensationalists wrongly try to make “twain” men out of “one man” now despite Scripture expressly teaching the very opposite truth. Romans 11:16-17 says, “thou (the unbelieving Gentiles), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them (the believing Jews), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.”

          Ephesians 4:4-7 affirms, there is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.”

          The people of God, believing Jews and Gentiles, Old Testament and New, have all drank of the same spiritual drink – the “living water” of the Spirit – that has emanated from Christ the Rock.

          Paul says, reference the Old Testament saints, in I Corinthians 10:1-4, “I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers (the Old Testament saints) were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them: and that rock was Christ.”

          And continues, “For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?” (1 Corinthians 10:17-18).
          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

          WPM

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

            *MOD NOTE*

            If there are some who cannot get along it might be best for them to put each other on the "ignore" list.

            Marcus O'Reillius please open a thread in chat to Moderators to discuss your posting privileges on this forum..

            http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay....the-moderators


            Everyone else, please keep the discussion civil and focus on refuting(or defending) the assumption laid out in the OP.
            Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

              Mod hat off and speaking as a brother...

              I can't help but wonder what causes others to take these types of attitudes with each other when it comes to eschatology. I can only bring my own faults to the light. I am a serious student of the word. I can probably quote half the bible from memory. I have studied and studied diligently above my peers in real life. I have noticed that this knowledge has resulted in a subtle form of pride within me. I think this pride was the main reason I often responded so sharply to those that disagreed with what I had to say. It has dawned on me that no matter what I know if I fail to enter into compassion it profits me nothing. I am no more than a tare that has been corrupted with the leaven of the Pharisees (which is hypocrisy).I have lived "knowledge puffs up" but I am sincerely seeking to enter into "but love edifies". Let us keep in mind how silly these arguments will seem when we one day walk with the Lord in the coming age...no matter how that age takes shape
              I am not saying we all need to hold hands and sing "kumbaya" when we disagree but let us at least have enough respect for each other to speak in a civil tone.

              Peace
              Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                (sorry for three posts in a row guys but there were three distinct issues to deal with)

                The way I see Lk 30-34-36 is in it's context. The context is the coming resurrection. Jesus was dealing with the false theology of the Sadducees that denied a resurrection. He was dealing specifically with those that were worthy of that resurrection. The verse in no way eliminates the possibility that there will be people in natural bodies who will also enter that age. Those verses are not even dealing with that possibility.
                Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                  Shalom wpm,

                  I agree with most of your post. I would like to add:

                  Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

                  In Yehoshua,

                  Guy Smith
                  PS I sent you a PM

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                    Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
                    (sorry for three posts in a row guys but there were three distinct issues to deal with)

                    The way I see Lk 30-34-36 is in it's context. The context is the coming resurrection. Jesus was dealing with the false theology of the Sadducees that denied a resurrection. He was dealing specifically with those that were worthy of that resurrection. The verse in no way eliminates the possibility that there will be people in natural bodies who will also enter that age. Those verses are not even dealing with that possibility.
                    But it actually identifies those who are worthy to inherit the age to come and stipulates that they will not die. The reason for this is obviously they have been glorified at the resurrection. In the Premil paradigm we have mortals, death and sin. It just doesn't seem to fit. This text negates the Premil view on Rev 20.
                    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                    WPM

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                      Originally posted by guysmith View Post
                      Shalom wpm,

                      I agree with most of your post. I would like to add:

                      Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

                      In Yehoshua,

                      Guy Smith
                      PS I sent you a PM

                      Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."
                      everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved;
                      This sounds very simple, Call on the name of the Lord and you are saved.

                      This is true, but it is not simple, Only simple for the Elect because they know the name of the Lord and can call on the name of the Lord. A person has to belong to Christ before the name of the Lord is reveled to them.

                      John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
                      Last edited by T W Taylor; Feb 3 2014, 02:08 PM. Reason: put quotes

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                        Originally posted by guysmith View Post
                        Shalom wpm,

                        I agree with most of your post. I would like to add:

                        Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

                        In Yehoshua,

                        Guy Smith
                        PS I sent you a PM
                        Thanks for your response. I would love to here more of your thoughts on the main text.
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                          Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
                          Mod hat off and speaking as a brother...

                          I can't help but wonder what causes others to take these types of attitudes with each other when it comes to eschatology. I can only bring my own faults to the light. I am a serious student of the word. I can probably quote half the bible from memory. I have studied and studied diligently above my peers in real life. I have noticed that this knowledge has resulted in a subtle form of pride within me. I think this pride was the main reason I often responded so sharply to those that disagreed with what I had to say. It has dawned on me that no matter what I know if I fail to enter into compassion it profits me nothing. I am no more than a tare that has been corrupted with the leaven of the Pharisees (which is hypocrisy).I have lived "knowledge puffs up" but I am sincerely seeking to enter into "but love edifies". Let us keep in mind how silly these arguments will seem when we one day walk with the Lord in the coming age...no matter how that age takes shape
                          I am not saying we all need to hold hands and sing "kumbaya" when we disagree but let us at least have enough respect for each other to speak in a civil tone.

                          Peace
                          That problem is not yours alone. People that I have studied with, even myself on a few instances, become haughty because of the work we have put into studying the Word. That attitude is why we need to remember Matthew 7:1-5. I am in total agreement with you on this one, shepherd'sword.

                          And wpm, I will be addressing your OP in a couple of minutes.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                            Originally posted by wpm View Post
                            Christ was asked a hypothetical question about a woman who had 7 husbands, all of which died along with herself. Luke 20:33 records: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

                            Christ tells us in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy(or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

                            When it says that those that are worthy to inherit the age to come will not experience death in that age we know that we are looking at the eternal state. There is no other age that is exempt from the blight of death. This indeed will be a glorious day. There can be no doubt that we are looking at the introduction of the new heavens and the new earth.

                            Attaining unto the age to come is not automatic; it is a reward. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared. He is Coming alone for His people. This is clearly confirmed in this text. The age to come is an age exclusively reserved for “the children of God.” Whilst the wicked are not the main focus of this particular text we can still discern that they are excluded from the age to come. They are judged, banished from His presence and damned to eternal punishment when He appears. There are therefore two peoples at Christ’s appearing, one that is rewarded and one that is reprobated.

                            The phrase accounted worthy is translated from the Greek word kataxioō and means exactly how it is interpreted. It means to deem entirely deserving. It is found 4 times in the New Testament and carries that consistent sense.

                            This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. Firstly this age is a reward for the redeemed. The Premil scheme falls apart at this point as it saturates the new earth with unregenerate mortal rebels. In fact, they reward those who attack Jerusalem just prior to the Second Coming and usher them into the semi-corrupt semi-glorious millennial age.

                            What is more: those who experience the age to come are not expressly mortals (they don’t die). This obviously exclusively refers to the perfected glorified saints. Those that are “accounted worthy” in Scripture are the elect. Thus, those that obtain that age which is to come are those that have been glorified at the resurrection. They enter the eternal age and don’t die any more – "for they are equal unto the angels.”

                            Luke uses this same word in the next chapter also in regard to the Second Coming of the Lord. He is quoting our Lord’s admonition about His appearing. Christ warns, “take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (the Second Coming) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36).

                            Those who are accounted worthy to escape the impending wrath of God in this passage are the exact same people who Jesus identifies in Luke 20 who are described as the “children of God” who will be glorified at His Coming and will therefore not “die any more” – because “they are equal unto the angels.”

                            These two statements by our Lord in these two passages closely correlate. They impress the necessity of being prepared and qualified to (1) escape the wrath of God that will be poured upon sinful civilisation and (2) inherit the new eternal state that is purged of all corruption when Jesus comes. Scripture has much to say about this great climactic event that will catch the ungodly “unawares” but will find the believer watching. We should not forget it is only a certain calibre of human being that will experience both of these blessings (the rescue and the inheritance). It is the redeemed of God.

                            The dual aspect of Christ’s return is also found in II Thessalonians 1:4-10, where we find a 3rd New Testament reference to the same Greek word kataxioō. It similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy (or kataxioō) of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

                            All the usages of this word therefore relate to the saints of God, and relate to an impending rewarded condition.

                            All I have seen you prove is that Jesus means what He says when He told the Sadducees that the resurrection is real. You have attempted to roll that into another tired tirade concerning how premils are so wrong about what happens when the Lord returns. The problem comes in when you are attempting to explain it. There are some inconsistencies that must be highlighted.

                            1. The idea of 1000 years comes from actual scripture, not the imaginings of zealots. Revelation 20:4-6
                            2. The idea of some being resurrected to rule this world comes scripture, not the doctrines of men. Zechariah 14, Revelation 20:4-6
                            3. The idea that mortal men will remain on earth after the Lord returns is not some made-up interpretation of a scripture, but the actual scriptures themselves. Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 39, Psalm 2, Isaiah 65-66, Matthew 25:31-45, Revelation 20:4-10.
                            4. The resurrection, as used in the New Testament, is not symbolic of of a rebirth in Christ, but rather the word involves the actual raising of a human from death to life, literally. OP

                            Once we get past this point, then a conversation can take place.

                            When Jesus appears the righteous and the wicked will be eternally separated. The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God the wicked will be destroyed “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” This reading shows us that men must warrant the kingdom of God; it is not given to everyone. Other clear Scripture tells us that there are but few that will experience the eternal kingdom – only those that are “counted worthy.” It is a meritorious thing, just like the catching away of the saints to escape the wrath of God and the reward of the age to come.

                            This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.
                            I take it you are telling us your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-45. The problem with that is when the Lord first returns, He picks up the saints, before the Beast destroys Babylon, before Christ slaughters the wicked, before He judges the rest of the earth. His first order of business will be to collect His own, and that happens when every eye can see Him coming in clouds of Glory. Why else does He take almost 2 chapters to explain how people who are supposed to be Believers can be left behind? Since the true Righteous are gone before Christ establishes His Kingdom, then who are the "sheep" He will admit into His Kingdom? Here's a hint, Matthew 25:37-40.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                              Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
                              All I have seen you prove is that Jesus means what He says when He told the Sadducees that the resurrection is real. You have attempted to roll that into another tired tirade concerning how premils are so wrong about what happens when the Lord returns. The problem comes in when you are attempting to explain it. There are some inconsistencies that must be highlighted.

                              1. The idea of 1000 years comes from actual scripture, not the imaginings of zealots. Revelation 20:4-6
                              2. The idea of some being resurrected to rule this world comes scripture, not the doctrines of men. Zechariah 14, Revelation 20:4-6
                              3. The idea that mortal men will remain on earth after the Lord returns is not some made-up interpretation of a scripture, but the actual scriptures themselves. Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 39, Psalm 2, Isaiah 65-66, Matthew 25:31-45, Revelation 20:4-10.
                              4. The resurrection, as used in the New Testament, is not symbolic of of a rebirth in Christ, but rather the word involves the actual raising of a human from death to life, literally. OP

                              Once we get past this point, then a conversation can take place.



                              I take it you are telling us your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-45. The problem with that is when the Lord first returns, He picks up the saints, before the Beast destroys Babylon, before Christ slaughters the wicked, before He judges the rest of the earth. His first order of business will be to collect His own, and that happens when every eye can see Him coming in clouds of Glory. Why else does He take almost 2 chapters to explain how people who are supposed to be Believers can be left behind? Since the true Righteous are gone before Christ establishes His Kingdom, then who are the "sheep" He will admit into His Kingdom? Here's a hint, Matthew 25:37-40.
                              The difficult thing for Amils when discussing the Second Coming with Premils is that they often sidestep clear and repeated Scripture that forbid their paradigm and transpire to interpret whatever passage is being discussed in the light of their opinion of one lone passage Rev 20. Basically the mantra is: 'what saith Rev 20'. What is more, rarely does a Premil discussion pass without Isa 65 and Zech 14 also being thrown into the mix (even though they make no mention of or an allusion to a future millennium). These 3 passages have been repeatedly and in detail dealt with by Amils. They have been dissected, examined, scrutinized, exegeted from top to bottom. We have proven that they don't say what Premil intimates. This can be very frustrating (and boring) to deal with all the time. To me this shows the fragility of the Premil doctrine and the grave lack of corroboration. This is exactly what you have just done. You have avoided the OP and just presented the usual part line. There is nothing to rebut in regard to the OP. The argument still remains unchallenged. I would be obliged if you actually dealt with the Scriptures /arguments I presented which I am convinced rebut Premil. I can only interpret your avoidance of these Scriptures/arguments as an admission that these passages rebut Premil.
                              "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                              http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                              WPM

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                                Originally posted by wpm View Post
                                The difficult thing for Amils when discussing the Second Coming with Premils is that they often sidestep clear and repeated Scripture that forbid their paradigm and transpire to interpret whatever passage is being discussed in the light of their opinion of one lone passage Rev 20. Basically the mantra is: 'what saith Rev 20'. What is more, rarely does a Premil discussion pass without Isa 65 and Zech 14 also being thrown into the mix (even though they make no mention of or an allusion to a future millennium). These 3 passages have been repeatedly and in detail dealt with by Amils. They have been dissected, examined, scrutinized, exegeted from top to bottom. We have proven that they don't say what Premil intimates. This can be very frustrating (and boring) to deal with all the time. To me this shows the fragility of the Premil doctrine and the grave lack of corroboration. This is exactly what you have just done. You have avoided the OP and just presented the usual part line. There is nothing to rebut in regard to the OP. The argument still remains unchallenged. I would be obliged if you actually dealt with the Scriptures /arguments I presented which I am convinced rebut Premil. I can only interpret your avoidance of these Scriptures/arguments as an admission that these passages rebut Premil.
                                Because the premils hang their hats on a scripture that is in the Bible for all to see, you find that they have made a mistake? How can you argue with scripture? The premils believe in 1000 years because Revelation 20:4-6 plainly tells us about the Saints ruling the world with Christ for 1000 years. Do you know exactly how many scriptures in the Old Testament predicted the death of the Messiah? One verse, and one phrase in another verse. That is it. Isaiah 53:12 is the only verse that tells us that He will bare the sins of many. Daniel 9:26 is the only other place that indicated that the Anointed One will be "cut off. There were not many scriptures that highlighted His Death, yet, what happened when He came to earth the first time? He died for our sins.

                                So what if the premils hang their collective hats on Revelation 20? Would you rather they hang their hats on the Left Behind series? Scripture is scripture is scripture. Some portions of scripture are difficult to understand, but that is due to a variety of reasons, interference being one of them. If someone is basing what they believe from scripture, who is anyone here to resist him? Is that not how stumbling blocks are formed? What is more important, that people ignore what they believe to see things your way, or have each of them go to Christ himself or herself and find out on their own, through prayer and research?

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