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  • #46
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
    Because the premils hang their hats on a scripture that is in the Bible for all to see, you find that they have made a mistake? How can you argue with scripture? The premils believe in 1000 years because Revelation 20:4-6 plainly tells us about the Saints ruling the world with Christ for 1000 years. Do you know exactly how many scriptures in the Old Testament predicted the death of the Messiah? One verse, and one phrase in another verse. That is it. Isaiah 53:12 is the only verse that tells us that He will bare the sins of many. Daniel 9:26 is the only other place that indicated that the Anointed One will be "cut off. There were not many scriptures that highlighted His Death, yet, what happened when He came to earth the first time? He died for our sins.

    So what if the premils hang their collective hats on Revelation 20? Would you rather they hang their hats on the Left Behind series? Scripture is scripture is scripture. Some portions of scripture are difficult to understand, but that is due to a variety of reasons, interference being one of them. If someone is basing what they believe from scripture, who is anyone here to resist him? Is that not how stumbling blocks are formed? What is more important, that people ignore what they believe to see things your way, or have each of them go to Christ himself or herself and find out on their own, through prayer and research?
    That is simply not true. There are countless OT passages that describe Christ's first coming, including His life, death and resurrection. Also there is much about the last days/kingdom age/messianic period that we are currently in. So your justification for no corroboration for the Premil view of Rev 20 does not fly. In fact it is an admission of non-corroboration. As you search the inspired pages for Scripture that would support a literal period of one thousand years after the Second Coming there is scriptural silence.

    When you compare the incredible detail of the achievements of Christ's first Advent (all of which occurred within a short period 3 1/2 yr period) to the severe lack of any corroboration of a thousand years you can see why more and more people are rejecting the doctrine. On His death alone Genesis 3:15, Psalm 2:1-3, Psalm 22:10-18, Ps. 69:26, Ps. 88:4-8, 15-17, Isaiah 53, and Zechariah 12:10 come to mind. So far from no detail on is death as you claim, there is much. That is just predicting His death. That is not remotely touching all the detail of His birth, ministry, and resurrection.

    By the way, nowhere does it predict a specific "1000 years' as you keep suggesting, but rather a general "thousand years." That is a oft-used symbolic figure.

    The only thing you have proved is that Premil lacks any corroboration.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

      I do not intend to side with the premil, wpm. I just do not see the point in attempting to cause everyone to come to your way of thinking. Think about it, we agree to the things that will happen at the end of the earth. (regeneration of the earth, Jesus restoring the planet to its former glory, etc). Where we disagree is the placement of these events. (wpm=return/end/regeneration seeker=return/regeneration/end). I respect your point of view and it appears that you respect mine, which I do appreciate. Unless God shows Himself to both of us at the same time to teach us what is right or wrong, we will probably never agree on that issue, and it's ok. What is the most important issue for me right now is to stimulate people to do their own research, and find out for themselves whether what I am speaking is the truth or not.

      Please do not confuse what I believe with the premils, and please do not consider this retort as me running to the aid of the premils.

      As far as the symbolism is concerned, you do not have to tell me about. Jesus's Kingdom will never end, so the 1000 years reference has to be symbolic.

      The fact that the 1000 years is specifically written twice in that chapter, the significance of that time has to mean something. I believe it strengthens the importance of the period of Satan's actual imprisonment, another point of contention between you and I.

      With the scriptures you mention, you are basically including all of the scriptures that make a reference to His death? I was not including those. I am thinking "to the letter" stating that the Messiah that they were expecting was going to have to die when He got here. I have only found Isaiah 53:12 and Daniel 9:26. In both instances, the Messiah's Death was "to the letter" foretold. We know how true those prophecies are. Jesus's Word never comes back to Him void. He did not have to simply make sly references to His impending death, He made sure that His death was clearly understood to be an actual event. I think you can agree with me on this next point. The Pharisees had no excuse for the actions they had taken. I do believe that those people will continue to be looked upon with disdain until this earth is destroyed.

      You do not seem to understand something. Revelation 20 is a scripture. If they decide to take the term, "1000 years", literally, then who is any of us to say that they are wrong?

      Originally posted by wpm
      Also there is much about the last days/kingdom age/messianic period that we are currently in. So your justification for no corroboration for the Premil view of Rev 20 does not fly. In fact it is an admission of non-corroboration. As you search the inspired pages for Scripture that would support a literal period of one thousand years after the Second Coming there is scriptural silence.
      I am still waiting for your response to Zechariah 14, which describes the event before His coming, the Second Coming itself, and the days AFTER His return. That is just one chapter in the Old testament detailing what you describe as silence. Psalm 2 does a lot of that too. You own best piece of evidence betrays you because of the fact that in the NHNE, Death is in the Lake of Fire,(Revelation 21:4) not so in Isaiah 65, (verses 19-20 to be specific). So even Isaiah 65 details a world at peace, with Death still in it. Sounds to me more like that period of time that you call silent. With evidence like that, the silence really is deafening.

      My point is simple. If the scripture itself contains the phrase, "1000 years", and people choose to believe it literally, none of us here are in the position to judge their decisions. You see things your way. Others see things their way. That is just the way it is.

      Personal note-I just realized that.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

        Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
        I do not intend to side with the premil, wpm. I just do not see the point in attempting to cause everyone to come to your way of thinking. Think about it, we agree to the things that will happen at the end of the earth. (regeneration of the earth, Jesus restoring the planet to its former glory, etc). Where we disagree is the placement of these events. (wpm=return/end/regeneration seeker=return/regeneration/end). I respect your point of view and it appears that you respect mine, which I do appreciate. Unless God shows Himself to both of us at the same time to teach us what is right or wrong, we will probably never agree on that issue, and it's ok. What is the most important issue for me right now is to stimulate people to do their own research, and find out for themselves whether what I am speaking is the truth or not.

        Please do not confuse what I believe with the premils, and please do not consider this retort as me running to the aid of the premils.

        As far as the symbolism is concerned, you do not have to tell me about. Jesus's Kingdom will never end, so the 1000 years reference has to be symbolic.

        The fact that the 1000 years is specifically written twice in that chapter, the significance of that time has to mean something. I believe it strengthens the importance of the period of Satan's actual imprisonment, another point of contention between you and I.

        With the scriptures you mention, you are basically including all of the scriptures that make a reference to His death? I was not including those. I am thinking "to the letter" stating that the Messiah that they were expecting was going to have to die when He got here. I have only found Isaiah 53:12 and Daniel 9:26. In both instances, the Messiah's Death was "to the letter" foretold. We know how true those prophecies are. Jesus's Word never comes back to Him void. He did not have to simply make sly references to His impending death, He made sure that His death was clearly understood to be an actual event. I think you can agree with me on this next point. The Pharisees had no excuse for the actions they had taken. I do believe that those people will continue to be looked upon with disdain until this earth is destroyed.

        You do not seem to understand something. Revelation 20 is a scripture. If they decide to take the term, "1000 years", literally, then who is any of us to say that they are wrong?



        I am still waiting for your response to Zechariah 14, which describes the event before His coming, the Second Coming itself, and the days AFTER His return. That is just one chapter in the Old testament detailing what you describe as silence. Psalm 2 does a lot of that too. You own best piece of evidence betrays you because of the fact that in the NHNE, Death is in the Lake of Fire,(Revelation 21:4) not so in Isaiah 65, (verses 19-20 to be specific). So even Isaiah 65 details a world at peace, with Death still in it. Sounds to me more like that period of time that you call silent. With evidence like that, the silence really is deafening.

        My point is simple. If the scripture itself contains the phrase, "1000 years", and people choose to believe it literally, none of us here are in the position to judge their decisions. You see things your way. Others see things their way. That is just the way it is.

        Personal note-I just realized that.
        It is difficult when you constantly ignore what I have presented re Isa 65, which actually shows that the text doesn't mention death continuing in the NHNE. It describes the opposite. The Septuagint and the earliest ECF I can get quoting it verbatim from Scripture interpret it as I do. I believe most of the translations are wrong on this one verse. They tend to follow each other. Notwithstanding, right through to 1900 most commentators still placed that in the NHNE after the millennium as Rev does. That is a fact you seem to not want to acknowledge.

        The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851, translates this: “Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old.”

        Another translation A New English Translation of the Septuagint, published by Oxford University Press. States: “And there shall not be there one who dies untimely or an old person who will not fulfil his time; for the young person will be a hundred years old.”

        This verse is simply trying to transmit an eternal truth in a way that our finite minds can understand it. The prophet uses normal every-day phraseology to reveal that. Isaiah was putting eternity in comprehendible human terms so that the reader could relate to it. Since we can’t really fully grasp eternity, the prophet chose an earthly way to explain it that the reader could better understand. Whether the Holy Spirit employed a hundred or a million years to convey this truth is not important, it is simply that eternity will be far removed from the here-and-now in time and character. We will not age like we do now. A hundred year old man will be like a child in eternity.

        Justin Martyr (AD 100-166)

        Justin referred to this passage but whilst he related it to the millennial earth, that earth was one that was perfect and pristine and possessed no wicked or wickedness.

        “For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed” (Chapter LXXXI – He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse).

        Please answer the following.

        Firstly, does the new heavens and a new earth arrive at the beginning of the millennium or after according to the book of Revelation? This is not a difficult one!!!
        Secondly, how can there be no tears on the new earth and yet there still be death? That is nonsensical and absurd.
        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

        WPM

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

          Originally posted by wpm View Post
          It is difficult when you constantly ignore what I have presented re Isa 65, which actually shows that the text doesn't mention death continuing in the NHNE. It describes the opposite. The Septuagint and the earliest ECF I can get quoting it verbatim from Scripture interpret it as I do. I believe most of the translations are wrong on this one verse. They tend to follow each other. Notwithstanding, right through to 1900 most commentators still placed that in the NHNE after the millennium as Rev does. That is a fact you seem to not want to acknowledge.

          The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851, translates this: “Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old.”

          Another translation A New English Translation of the Septuagint, published by Oxford University Press. States: “And there shall not be there one who dies untimely or an old person who will not fulfil his time; for the young person will be a hundred years old.”

          This verse is simply trying to transmit an eternal truth in a way that our finite minds can understand it. The prophet uses normal every-day phraseology to reveal that. Isaiah was putting eternity in comprehendible human terms so that the reader could relate to it. Since we can’t really fully grasp eternity, the prophet chose an earthly way to explain it that the reader could better understand. Whether the Holy Spirit employed a hundred or a million years to convey this truth is not important, it is simply that eternity will be far removed from the here-and-now in time and character. We will not age like we do now. A hundred year old man will be like a child in eternity.

          Justin Martyr (AD 100-166)

          Justin referred to this passage but whilst he related it to the millennial earth, that earth was one that was perfect and pristine and possessed no wicked or wickedness.

          “For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed” (Chapter LXXXI – He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse).
          All of this is convincing to you and some others. I respect Justin Martyr's opinion, but I do not agree with it. My source is the Bible itself, not an outside source. I am not stating Sola Scriptura, like many other proclaim, but I cannot just turn a blind eye to what I have read. If someone hands me a note, and the note tells me that the one who handed me the note intends to harm my children, I will not care about any sort of explanation from the person. My eyes had seen enough and the time for talking ceased. In the same vein, Death is clearly referenced in Isaiah 65:20.

          When I have a choice to believe what an early church father believes or believe what is written on the page, I am going to side with the words found in the scriptures themselves. No matter how you look at it, death is present in Isaiah 65:19-20.

          Isaiah 65:19-20 (For those following along).
          I will rejoice over Jerusalem
          and take delight in my people;
          the sound of weeping and of crying
          will be heard in it no more.
          20 “Never again will there be in it
          an infant who lives but a few days,
          or an old man who does not live out his years;

          the one who dies at a hundred
          will be thought a mere child;
          the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
          will be considered accursed
          .


          "Living out his years" is a definite indicator of Death being present in this New Heaven and Earth in Isaiah 65. Notice the stark difference between one of the last descriptions of Isaiah's NHNE and John's version.

          Revelation 21:4
          ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

          There is no wiggle room for error in this verse. Death is NOT present at all, referenced or inferred, in Revelation 21:4. Death is gone, and the living out of a man's years, at that point, would become irrelevant. Isaiah's NHNE is not the same as John's NHNE. These two scriptures are where I hang my hat on. Isaiah 65:20 has death in it. Revelation 21:4 clearly does not.

          For me, Isaiah 65, especially because of verse 20, brings me to a point that you are not going to like. I believe that when Christ returns, He is going to rule this earth with a rod of iron. (Psalm 2). Another point that you and I agree with. You believe that He is going to rule all of this planet, while restoring the earth to its former glory. Your paradigm, however, has no room in it for mortal humans, since you believe that He will destroy humanity when He returns. I believe that when He returns, he will bring the earth back to its former glory. The difference between what I believe and what you believe is in fact Isaiah 65:20. Death is present in that description of God's NHNE in Isaiah, so this has to be that period of time in which all of the people that is left will learn to obey Him and quickly. As Psalm 2:7-9 tells us, He is not going to be nice this time around. If He is angered but a little, that nation will face dire consequences, a sentiment echoed in Zechariah 14:16-19. This would be a snapshot of a period in time when Jesus Christ is physically ruling this planet, with the aid of His Saints, from His throne that He will establish in Jerusalem, a time period that you say the scriptures are "silent" on.


          Please answer the following.

          Firstly, does the new heavens and a new earth arrive at the beginning of the millennium or after according to the book of Revelation? This is not a difficult one!!!
          Secondly, how can there be no tears on the new earth and yet there still be death? That is nonsensical and absurd.
          1. The NHNE happens after the OHOE is destroyed. When Satan angers Jesus to the point where He hands the Earth back over to His Father, He will transport His Kingdom out of this heaven and earth and we will be protected while God the Father destroys this universe. I do not recognize a "millennium". Did you not read my last post? Jesus Kingdom never ends, so "the Millennium" contains the ultimate contradiction, Christ's Kingdom having an expiration point. So to answer your question, the end is in fact, the end. I believe that the End will happen after the period of regeneration is complete, and the people who are living in His Kingdom have learned how to quell their own selfish desires. With Jesus and the Saints as their rulers, they will learn quickly how to do what they were supposed to be doing now. When Satan is released from his prison, he will defy the Lord and will cause many who are on the earth then to rebel against their God. That is going to literally spell the end. Satan gathers the people to Jerusalem, Jesus takes the saints out of the earth, along with the obedient ones, and hands the planet over to His Father for destruction, which He will do with impunity, (Revelation 20:7-10).

          2. There is no mentioning of a wiping of tears in Isaiah 65. That is found in Revelation 21. In Isaiah 65, we find that the sound of weeping will not be heard in "her" anymore. That "her" is Jerusalem. The city will be remade into something joyful, which is exactly what verses 18-19 tell us. There is no "wiping every tear" as there is in Revelation 21. That city will be a place of joy. That is what those two scriptures tell me. That joyful place, in Isaiah 65, is not the entire earth, but one city, Jerusalem. This is yet another point of contention.

          Now I have a question for you. Have the events listed in Zechariah 14 happened yet? This question is NOT difficult either.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

            Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
            All of this is convincing to you and some others. I respect Justin Martyr's opinion, but I do not agree with it. My source is the Bible itself, not an outside source. I am not stating Sola Scriptura, like many other proclaim, but I cannot just turn a blind eye to what I have read. If someone hands me a note, and the note tells me that the one who handed me the note intends to harm my children, I will not care about any sort of explanation from the person. My eyes had seen enough and the time for talking ceased. In the same vein, Death is clearly referenced in Isaiah 65:20.

            When I have a choice to believe what an early church father believes or believe what is written on the page, I am going to side with the words found in the scriptures themselves. No matter how you look at it, death is present in Isaiah 65:19-20.
            Amen. Who is disagreeing with that? The Bible is the exclusive source of what I am saying here. The reference to Justin was actually him quoting Isa 65.

            Isaiah 65:19-20 (For those following along).
            I will rejoice over Jerusalem
            and take delight in my people;
            the sound of weeping and of crying
            will be heard in it no more.
            20 “Never again will there be in it
            an infant who lives but a few days,
            or an old man who does not live out his years;

            the one who dies at a hundred
            will be thought a mere child;
            the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
            will be considered accursed
            .
            I am saying there is no record of death on the new earth in the original Hebrew. Just for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath.

            Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
            Not become thence more babe days, old man’s after

            What is this telling us?

            Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

            lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
            Not filled your days like the child old an hundred years die

            This is synonymous parallelism. God is just repeating the same truth in slightly different words.

            It is found in Isaiah 65:17.

            For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
            And the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


            This is clearly telling us that the old corrupt temporal decaying arrangement is going to be replaced by the new perfect eternal regime. The promises in this prophecy in regard to the new heavens and new earth is not more of the same to dread but rather the opposite – a brand new arrangement free of death and decay.

            What is more the same Hebrew word Lo' that is found twice in Isaiah 65:20 meaning “no” or “not” are also used twice in Isaiah 65:17:

            "Living out his years" is a definite indicator of Death being present in this New Heaven and Earth in Isaiah 65. Notice the stark difference between one of the last descriptions of Isaiah's NHNE and John's version.

            Revelation 21:4
            ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

            There is no wiggle room for error in this verse. Death is NOT present at all, referenced or inferred, in Revelation 21:4. Death is gone, and the living out of a man's years, at that point, would become irrelevant. Isaiah's NHNE is not the same as John's NHNE. These two scriptures are where I hang my hat on. Isaiah 65:20 has death in it. Revelation 21:4 clearly does not.
            Death in Isaiah 65 in the eternal state is only related to the "sinner" who is banished into the Lake of Fire when Jesus comes. In have shown you above that the Hebrew is saying the opposite to what you are suggesting. The Septuagint corroborates that. Isa 65 is comparing the elect that are rewarded with eternal life to the wicked's ongoing eternal death (the second death).

            For me, Isaiah 65, especially because of verse 20, brings me to a point that you are not going to like. I believe that when Christ returns, He is going to rule this earth with a rod of iron. (Psalm 2). Another point that you and I agree with. You believe that He is going to rule all of this planet, while restoring the earth to its former glory. Your paradigm, however, has no room in it for mortal humans, since you believe that He will destroy humanity when He returns. I believe that when He returns, he will bring the earth back to its former glory. The difference between what I believe and what you believe is in fact Isaiah 65:20. Death is present in that description of God's NHNE in Isaiah, so this has to be that period of time in which all of the people that is left will learn to obey Him and quickly. As Psalm 2:7-9 tells us, He is not going to be nice this time around. If He is angered but a little, that nation will face dire consequences, a sentiment echoed in Zechariah 14:16-19. This would be a snapshot of a period in time when Jesus Christ is physically ruling this planet, with the aid of His Saints, from His throne that He will establish in Jerusalem, a time period that you say the scriptures are "silent" on.
            There is no mention of a millennium in that text, you must insert it into it. Where does Isa 65 or Rev 20 say Christ "rule this earth with a rod of iron"? Nowhere.

            1. The NHNE happens after the OHOE is destroyed. When Satan angers Jesus to the point where He hands the Earth back over to His Father, He will transport His Kingdom out of this heaven and earth and we will be protected while God the Father destroys this universe. I do not recognize a "millennium". Did you not read my last post? Jesus Kingdom never ends, so "the Millennium" contains the ultimate contradiction, Christ's Kingdom having an expiration point. So to answer your question, the end is in fact, the end. I believe that the End will happen after the period of regeneration is complete, and the people who are living in His Kingdom have learned how to quell their own selfish desires. With Jesus and the Saints as their rulers, they will learn quickly how to do what they were supposed to be doing now. When Satan is released from his prison, he will defy the Lord and will cause many who are on the earth then to rebel against their God. That is going to literally spell the end. Satan gathers the people to Jerusalem, Jesus takes the saints out of the earth, along with the obedient ones, and hands the planet over to His Father for destruction, which He will do with impunity, (Revelation 20:7-10).
            But the saints are glorified when He Comes. They are perfect. The wicked are destroyed. Why would they need to overcome their flesh when they are perfect???

            What do you mean "I do not recognize a "millennium""? It is in the Word. We have to do something with it.

            2
            . There is no mentioning of a wiping of tears in Isaiah 65. That is found in Revelation 21. In Isaiah 65, we find that the sound of weeping will not be heard in "her" anymore. That "her" is Jerusalem. The city will be remade into something joyful, which is exactly what verses 18-19 tell us. There is no "wiping every tear" as there is in Revelation 21. That city will be a place of joy. That is what those two scriptures tell me. That joyful place, in Isaiah 65, is not the entire earth, but one city, Jerusalem. This is yet another point of contention.
            Isaiah 65:17-21 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

            Isaiah 65:19 – which says, “the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.” This confirms that there will never again be sadness or weeping in the kingdom that follows Christ’s Coming. Christ will render the undertaker eternally redundant. Commenting on this passage Robert B. Strimple, says, “were it literally true that a man who died at a hundred would be considered a mere youth (65:20), then tears would be shed at his passing.”

            There can be no more tears during the whole duration of their supposed future millennial kingdom. Not another tear from a mother in childbirth, a child receiving correction, no more weeping from the penitent sinner under conviction, no more tears from those suffering illness, no more wailing during bereavement. Evidently, weeping and tears either terminate on the new earth or they don’t. In the Premillennial new earth, tears not only continue but abound. In fact, as long as sin persists tears accompany its continued existence.

            If there is no sorrow and crying, how then could there be death?

            Are people just going to be totally immune to the pain and gravity of death? Are people going to be completely insensitive during this supposed future millennial kingdom to the point where no one even cries when someone dies? Premillennialists interpret this passage in such a way that would suggest that there will be weeping on the new earth, thus contradicting Isaiah 65:19. But this cannot be so. We all know that there is no contradiction here. Such a proposal would be absurd.

            Crying is terminated in Isaiah 65:17-21, of course when we look to the Book of Revelation we discover that this does not happen until the commencement of the new heavens and new earth, which Revelation makes clear does not appear until after the millennium. After the conclusion of the millennium/Satan’s little season, Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

            As enlightening as Isaiah’s revelation of the new earth is, it is surely dim, vague and veiled compared to that unveiled by Christ and the Apostles in the New Testament. We are particularly assisted in our understanding of this much-debated reading before us by John in the book of Revelation as he actually refers to Isaiah 65 – only in clearer terms. In fact, he removes most, if not all, the haze surrounding this Old Testament revelation of the new heavens and a new earth and points us to its time of fulfilment. He removes any existing confusion by outlining in simpler and more comprehensible language the sense and meaning of the text. The fuller revelation, as is common in Scripture, better explains the hyperbole description in this Old Testament passage and explains more wholly the full meaning of this familiar passage.

            John explains in a more lucid manner what Isaiah was trying to convey in Isaiah 65:19-20. John passes over the metaphoric hyperbole and tells us that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” This passage fits in perfectly with what the prophet Isaiah was explaining in Isaiah 65:17-21. He was looking forward to a time when the curse and its accompanying features would be finally eliminated. He sheds more light on this much-debated reading, explaining better Isaiah 65:20. Certainly, interpreting Scripture with Scripture is the only way that we can truly comprehend the meaning of challenging verses like Isaiah 65:20. Moreover, it helps us understand the intricate language used by Isaiah in regards to death and the “new earth.”

            Now I have a question for you. Have the events listed in Zechariah 14 happened yet? This question is NOT difficult either.
            Zechariah 14 happened a lot time ago through and following the Lord's First Advent.
            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

            WPM

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

              I don't have much time these days to post tomes, so I'll just pop in and ask a few questions.

              Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
              Since the true Righteous are gone before Christ establishes His Kingdom, then who are the "sheep" He will admit into His Kingdom? Here's a hint, Matthew 25:37-40.
              I am not sure I even understand this question. The parable of the sheep and goats describes the final judgment before Jesus. There are two groups, sheep and goats.

              You stop at verse 40 but the parable continues to verse 46.

              Verse 46 describes the final destination of each group. The goats to eternal punishment. The sheep to eternal life. There is no suggestion one of these groups, or a third group, ends up on a fallen earth, with sin, death, and famine, for 1000 years, followed by some new judgment.
              In Christ,

              -- Rev

              “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                Originally posted by RevLogos View Post
                I am not sure I even understand this question. The parable of the sheep and goats describes the final judgment before Jesus. There are two groups, sheep and goats.

                You stop at verse 40 but the parable continues to verse 46.

                Verse 46 describes the final destination of each group. The goats to eternal punishment. The sheep to eternal life. There is no suggestion one of these groups, or a third group, ends up on a fallen earth, with sin, death, and famine, for 1000 years, followed by some new judgment.
                Matthew 24-25 deals with the events of the return of the Lord. Matthew 24 deals with the signs of the end. One of those signs is the appearing of Jesus in the air. When He appears, He will gather His saints to Himself. Before we even deal with chapter 25 and the judgment between the sheep and goats, Jesus brings His people unto Himself. Because He gathers His Saints first, who's left to judge? There are those who helped the saints, and those who are classified as wicked. The "Christians" who are fake will be included among the wicked.

                In Matthew 25:31-45, he calls one side of people sheep, and the other side goats. The sheep are righteous, while the goats are what the wicked are labelled. According to verse 31, this judgment happens after Jesus comes and while He is establishing His throne. This happens after He is revealed in the sky; which means that this judgment does not include Christians. The catching up happens when He appears, so this judgment happens after the catching up. So, who are the sheep in this judgment, since the Christians, (the true believers), will not be at this judgment?

                I highlighted verses 37-40 so that people would read those verses and discover that Jesus uses a standard in judging these people. That standard is how a person treated one of His people. For sake of argument, let's start with verse 34.

                Matthew 25:34-40
                “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

                37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

                40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

                The standard that Jesus uses here to judge the masses is how each individual treated one of His people. That is a direct reference to the people that He had already picked up earlier. These people, the "one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine", are the true believers that He had already given eternal life to. The people who helped the Believers while they were under duress, (the Great Tribulation), are the ones who are the sheep in that judgment. They are the only ones who can be the sheep, since the Believers are not there at that judgment facing it.

                I understand that you want to include verse 46 into your interpretation of my analysis. My point precludes verse 46, since the actual places of the sheep and goats go is no mystery. The premise that Jesus uses to judge the people there has been ignored by theologians for as long as this book as been in publication. That would be about 1900 years of people not reading and analyzing a very telling judgment that is Matthew 25:31-45. The idea of people being called sheep that are not believing Christians is something of an enigma to many. People use verse 46 to link back Christians to this judgment, which verses 37-40 clearly removes them from it.

                What does this mean? It means that if anyone helps out a believer during the Great Tribulation has a reward awaiting him. The principle that God has used since Jericho is what I am using to make this statement. The principle is simply this:

                Matthew 10:40-42
                “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

                When Rahab accepted the two spies, she accepted the Lord of those two spies. Her reward, the right to continue to live. She lived among the Israelites for the rest of her life. Unlike the rest of Jericho, she and her family was spared. That is the same principle that will be used to judge the world when He returns to establish His kingdom here on earth. Those who give aid to the Believers during our time of distress will be received into His Kingdom when He returns. They will have to wait until Jesus convenes and judges the rest of the world. Unfortunately for the fake believers, they will be disqualified from being counted as one of these people. I hope humanity is more humane than what I think humans will be at that time, because I do not see a lot of people coming to the aid of the believers. I do not expect there to be a lot of people who will "qualify" as sheep when He judges the world. I'd say about 0.000001% of the people on this earth will be called "sheep" at this judgment.

                So there are two types of people who will be present at Jesus Christ's Judgment Day. There will be the people who did as little as hand a Christian in duress a cup of water, and the wicked. The righteous will not be there since He had already raptured them to Himself before all of this happens.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                  Great posts seeker, thank you.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                    Nice posting Seeker. At last. Someone who reads what is written. It is the nations who are judged (25:32). The Church is WITH Him and the angels when He comes, having been judged in the air already (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 1:14; Rev.19:7, 14). Your analogy of Jericho is also very good. Rahab may not inherit the Good Land. She is not one of the Chosen Race. But she may ENTER the life of peace and prosperity that soon befalls the Land subdued and ruled by the Heirs - Israel.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                      Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
                      This happens after He is revealed in the sky; which means that this judgment does not include Christians. The catching up happens when He appears, so this judgment happens after the catching up. So, who are the sheep in this judgment, since the Christians, (the true believers), will not be at this judgment?
                      Wow! Hold your horses! You were going well up to this point, whereupon you imputed an unscriptural thought into your post, and then you transpired to build your argument upon this thought. First your premise is in error, both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected together and judged together. Matt 25 relates to when He comes. It is a Second Coming judgment. Jesus alludes to the very same concluding day, in Matthew 25:31-32 saying, When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations.”

                      The parable of the sheep and the goats describes how “the Son of man shall come in his glory” and bring “all the holy angels with him.” It is then that all creation will finally see Him “sit upon the throne of his glory.” The glorified Christ is seen coming in all His divine glory to glorify His people and glorify the earth. He will correspondingly judge the wicked and cast them into eternal punishment. This same glorified Christ and His glorified Church will then inherit a glorified earth forever – which is sin-free, goat-free and curse-free.

                      How could anyone deny that Christ is now glorified and that when He returns it is in power and glory?

                      Is His power and glory somehow veiled when He appears? The fact is that our glorified Saviour now reigns in all His great majesty and power upon high reigning over His enemies until they are finally destroyed at His return. Christ announced to His disciples after the resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). We cannot divest Christ of His rightful power and glory by delaying this great all-consummating event for well over 1,000 yrs after His return. By suspending His Coming in power and glory for 1,000 yrs, Premils dilute the majesty and actual purpose of His appearing.

                      This passage describes how "the Son of man shall come in his glory" and will bring "all the holy angels with him." Then we shall all see Him and He will finally "sit upon the throne of his glory." The glorified Christ is Coming

                      Q. When does this occur?
                      A. At the Coming of Christ.

                      This is the time when all mankind are finally judged. In God’s eyes men are split into one of two camp sheep or goats, saved or lost. The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to inherit the kingdom(v 34) and life eternal(v 46) whereas the wicked are cast into everlasting fire (v 41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (v 46). We should note there is no third group here as some would try to insinuate. This is the end!

                      One thing that stands out here is that the glorified Christ returns in all His glory. This is the one final future climactic Coming of Christ. It is at this stage that the saints are suitably arrayed in their glorified bodies and the earth is correspondingly glorified. There will be no corruption and no iniquity will inherit the new perfected earth.

                      Jesus speaks of His return in Matthew 19:28, stating: “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

                      The redeemed will join Christ in judging the wicked when Jesus comes in all His glory. This is further proof that the Coming of the Lord is the time “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” To propel this event 1,000 yrs beyond the Coming of the Lord is just not reasonable or remotely indicated in the reading. Here, like Matthew 25, the disciple confirms that the Coming of Christ is when He appears in glory.

                      Jesus reinforces this thought in Matthew 24:29-30, saying, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

                      The parallel account in Mark 13:24 says, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”

                      Luke 21:25-27 also says, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

                      These three passages confirm that Jesus is Coming “with power and great glory” at His return. This occurs immediately after the tribulation period for the Church (the intra-Advent period). It is therefore wrong to propel Christ coming in glory to the end of a supposed future 1,000 yrs millennium.

                      I highlighted verses 37-40 so that people would read those verses and discover that Jesus uses a standard in judging these people. That standard is how a person treated one of His people. For sake of argument, let's start with verse 34.

                      Matthew 25:34-40
                      “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

                      37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

                      40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

                      The standard that Jesus uses here to judge the masses is how each individual treated one of His people. That is a direct reference to the people that He had already picked up earlier. These people, the "one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine", are the true believers that He had already given eternal life to. The people who helped the Believers while they were under duress, (the Great Tribulation), are the ones who are the sheep in that judgment. They are the only ones who can be the sheep, since the Believers are not there at that judgment facing it.

                      I understand that you want to include verse 46 into your interpretation of my analysis. My point precludes verse 46, since the actual places of the sheep and goats go is no mystery. The premise that Jesus uses to judge the people there has been ignored by theologians for as long as this book as been in publication. That would be about 1900 years of people not reading and analyzing a very telling judgment that is Matthew 25:31-45. The idea of people being called sheep that are not believing Christians is something of an enigma to many. People use verse 46 to link back Christians to this judgment, which verses 37-40 clearly removes them from it.

                      What does this mean? It means that if anyone helps out a believer during the Great Tribulation has a reward awaiting him. The principle that God has used since Jericho is what I am using to make this statement. The principle is simply this:

                      Matthew 10:40-42
                      “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

                      When Rahab accepted the two spies, she accepted the Lord of those two spies. Her reward, the right to continue to live. She lived among the Israelites for the rest of her life. Unlike the rest of Jericho, she and her family was spared. That is the same principle that will be used to judge the world when He returns to establish His kingdom here on earth. Those who give aid to the Believers during our time of distress will be received into His Kingdom when He returns. They will have to wait until Jesus convenes and judges the rest of the world. Unfortunately for the fake believers, they will be disqualified from being counted as one of these people. I hope humanity is more humane than what I think humans will be at that time, because I do not see a lot of people coming to the aid of the believers. I do not expect there to be a lot of people who will "qualify" as sheep when He judges the world. I'd say about 0.000001% of the people on this earth will be called "sheep" at this judgment.

                      So there are two types of people who will be present at Jesus Christ's Judgment Day. There will be the people who did as little as hand a Christian in duress a cup of water, and the wicked. The righteous will not be there since He had already raptured them to Himself before all of this happens.
                      You are not getting what the Lord is saying.

                      Sheep (the brethren) treat sheep (the brethren) with love and care. I don't see the difficulty in Christ requiring believers to treat each other with love and affection and to aid them at every opportunity. I thought this was a sign that we are His disciples. Jesus said John 13:34-35: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

                      This is an evidence of salvation. This says that non-believers will know that we are real and that we belong to God if we love one another. Love among the brethren is tangible visible fruit that we are His.

                      1 John 4:12, 20 says: If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us … If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

                      If a brother is in prison or hungry, we should be moved with the compassion of Christ for them. There is nothing way-out about that.

                      Galatians 6:10 declares: “As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
                      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                      WPM

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post
                        Nice posting Seeker. At last. Someone who reads what is written. It is the nations who are judged (25:32). The Church is WITH Him and the angels when He comes, having been judged in the air already (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 1:14; Rev.19:7, 14). Your analogy of Jericho is also very good. Rahab may not inherit the Good Land. She is not one of the Chosen Race. But she may ENTER the life of peace and prosperity that soon befalls the Land subdued and ruled by the Heirs - Israel.
                        1. How could a whole nation possibly feed a hungry person (v 42)?
                        2. How could a whole nation possibly give a drink to a thirsty person (v 42)?
                        3. How could a whole nation take a homeless person in (v 43)?
                        4. How could a whole nation clothe a destitute person (v 43)?
                        5. How could a whole nation possibly visit a sick person in hospital (v 43)?
                        6. How could a whole nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)?
                        7. How then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act?

                        That doesn't make sense.
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                          Originally posted by RevLogos View Post
                          I don't have much time these days to post tomes, so I'll just pop in and ask a few questions.



                          I am not sure I even understand this question. The parable of the sheep and goats describes the final judgment before Jesus. There are two groups, sheep and goats.

                          You stop at verse 40 but the parable continues to verse 46.

                          Verse 46 describes the final destination of each group. The goats to eternal punishment. The sheep to eternal life. There is no suggestion one of these groups, or a third group, ends up on a fallen earth, with sin, death, and famine, for 1000 years, followed by some new judgment.
                          Great post. Thanks! So simple, but so true!
                          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                          WPM

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                            Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
                            Matthew 24-25 deals with the events of the return of the Lord. Matthew 24 deals with the signs of the end. One of those signs is the appearing of Jesus in the air. When He appears, He will gather His saints to Himself. Before we even deal with chapter 25 and the judgment between the sheep and goats, Jesus brings His people unto Himself. Because He gathers His Saints first, who's left to judge? There are those who helped the saints, and those who are classified as wicked. The "Christians" who are fake will be included among the wicked.

                            In Matthew 25:31-45, he calls one side of people sheep, and the other side goats. The sheep are righteous, while the goats are what the wicked are labelled. According to verse 31, this judgment happens after Jesus comes and while He is establishing His throne. This happens after He is revealed in the sky; which means that this judgment does not include Christians. The catching up happens when He appears, so this judgment happens after the catching up. So, who are the sheep in this judgment, since the Christians, (the true believers), will not be at this judgment?

                            I highlighted verses 37-40 so that people would read those verses and discover that Jesus uses a standard in judging these people. That standard is how a person treated one of His people. For sake of argument, let's start with verse 34.

                            Matthew 25:34-40
                            “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

                            37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

                            40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

                            The standard that Jesus uses here to judge the masses is how each individual treated one of His people. That is a direct reference to the people that He had already picked up earlier. These people, the "one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine", are the true believers that He had already given eternal life to. The people who helped the Believers while they were under duress, (the Great Tribulation), are the ones who are the sheep in that judgment. They are the only ones who can be the sheep, since the Believers are not there at that judgment facing it.

                            I understand that you want to include verse 46 into your interpretation of my analysis. My point precludes verse 46, since the actual places of the sheep and goats go is no mystery. The premise that Jesus uses to judge the people there has been ignored by theologians for as long as this book as been in publication. That would be about 1900 years of people not reading and analyzing a very telling judgment that is Matthew 25:31-45. The idea of people being called sheep that are not believing Christians is something of an enigma to many. People use verse 46 to link back Christians to this judgment, which verses 37-40 clearly removes them from it.

                            What does this mean? It means that if anyone helps out a believer during the Great Tribulation has a reward awaiting him. The principle that God has used since Jericho is what I am using to make this statement. The principle is simply this:

                            Matthew 10:40-42
                            “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

                            When Rahab accepted the two spies, she accepted the Lord of those two spies. Her reward, the right to continue to live. She lived among the Israelites for the rest of her life. Unlike the rest of Jericho, she and her family was spared. That is the same principle that will be used to judge the world when He returns to establish His kingdom here on earth. Those who give aid to the Believers during our time of distress will be received into His Kingdom when He returns. They will have to wait until Jesus convenes and judges the rest of the world. Unfortunately for the fake believers, they will be disqualified from being counted as one of these people. I hope humanity is more humane than what I think humans will be at that time, because I do not see a lot of people coming to the aid of the believers. I do not expect there to be a lot of people who will "qualify" as sheep when He judges the world. I'd say about 0.000001% of the people on this earth will be called "sheep" at this judgment.

                            So there are two types of people who will be present at Jesus Christ's Judgment Day. There will be the people who did as little as hand a Christian in duress a cup of water, and the wicked. The righteous will not be there since He had already raptured them to Himself before all of this happens.
                            There are numerous Scriptures that forbid your theory. I will take them one at time so that you can address each carefully.

                            2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

                            If all the believers are rescued and glorified when Jesus and all the wicked are destroyed from His very presence why are you populating the new earth with mortal rebels?

                            1 Corinthians 6:9 confirms:
                            “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

                            You seem to disagree with this.

                            Inheriting
                            the kingdom(Matthew 25:34) is synonymous with inheriting“life eternal” (Matthew 25:46).

                            What is more, you force mortals unto the new earth in your paradigm. Scripture forbids that.

                            1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither dothcorruption inherit incorruption.” This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that hasbeen purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

                            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                            WPM

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                              Originally posted by wpm
                              Wow! Hold your horses! You were going well up to this phrase and then imputed an alien though into your post. Both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected together and judged together. Matt 25 relates to when He comes. It is a Second Coming judgment. Jesus alludes to the very same concluding day, in Matthew 25:31-32 saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations.”

                              The parable of the sheep and the goats describes how “the Son of man shall come in his glory” and bring “all the holy angels with him.” It is then that all creation will finally see Him “sit upon the throne of his glory.” The glorified Christ is seen coming in all His divine glory to glorify His people and glorify the earth. He will correspondingly judge the wicked and cast them into eternal punishment. This same glorified Christ and His glorified Church will then inherit a glorified earth forever – which is sin-free, goat-free and curse-free.
                              I believe I have covered this already, wpm. You are not going to agree with me. That's fine. I get that. The fact still remains, however, that the judgment that is found in Matthew 25 is not the same judgment as the one in Revelation 20:11-15. There are some serious differences that I have already highlighted. We can go around in circles, but I am certain that we will get nowhere like this. This is only foreign because everyone assumes that this judgment in Matthew 25 is the same judgment as the one written in Revelation. The criteria in which Jesus Christ uses to judge the people there at the Matthew 25 judgment is not the same as the criteria used in the Last Day Judgment. In Revelation 20, books are opened, the earth is gone completely, and Satan is not sealed up anywhere other than the Lake of Fire where he truly belongs. In the Matthew 25 account, only those who are left on the earth are facing this judgment. The Lord has already gathered His people earlier in the passage, (Matthew 24:29-31), and now is gathering the survivors of the nations that have attacked the Believers. Those who were not slain by the sword in Jesus Christ's mouth and eaten by birds are in Jerusalem facing judgment from the returning, conquering King. The words speak for themselves. I understand that when the world ends, all who have ever lived who have not been transformed when the Lord returned or cast into the Lake of Fire when He judged them shortly after His return face the God of the universe, both the "righteous" and the wicked. I also understand that you believe that the judgment that Jesus resides over after His return is the exact same judgment that is found in Revelation 20. I will continue to disagree with you on that point, and like you, I am entrenched in my position. The best solution for this dilemma is a handshake and a good day bid.

                              On more thing, I do not consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be a parable. There is way too many things defined for this passage to be a parable. According to my timeline, the Lord's first duty at His return is to gather His people to Himself. Nothing else happens while this is happening, save for Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet calling forth lying spirits to bring the leaders of the world to Armageddon to do battle against the returning God. Matthew 25:31 tells us that the Lord is come and is establishing His Kingdom, which means that everything that is supposed to have happen in Revelation 19 is complete. So, the wicked leadership of the world, along with the armies of the world are subdued and destroyed by Him by the time this judgment happens. This is Jesus tying up loose ends and explaining to us what happens to the rest of the world after He returns. It also explains one concept that is foreign to you.

                              It explains how there can be mortal men on the earth while Jesus Christ is on earth ruling it. The reason why there are humans on earth when Satan is released from the Abyss is because the Lord allows people who have given aid to the Believers to continue to live, giving them a new set of rules in which they are to live by, which are the exact same rules that you and I have been working diligently to live by today. Unlike us today, they will not have Satan on their backs, tempting them to do exactly what you are not supposed to do. By Jesus honoring his words from Matthew 10, those who help the Believers will not be treated like the wicked when the Lord judges the remnant of the earth.

                              This is the time when all mankind are finally judged. In God’s eyes men are split into one of two camp sheep or goats, saved or lost. The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” (v 34) and “life eternal” (v 46) whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” (v 41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (v 46). We should note there is no third group here as some would try to insinuate. This is the end!

                              One thing that stands out here is that the glorified Christ returns in all His glory. This is the one final future climactic Coming of Christ. It is at this stage that the saints are suitably arrayed in their glorified bodies and the earth is correspondingly glorified. There will be no corruption and no iniquity will inherit the new perfected earth.
                              The dead is missing from this judgment.

                              The dead are not even referenced in Matthew 25. This is the first, main, and biggest difference between the Lord Judgment when He returns, and the GWT Judgment. Books are opened in the GWT judgment when there is not a single book opened in Matthew 25.

                              I am not including a third group of people. I am eliminating one group of people as being those who are being judged, realizing that these people have already been judged when He first appears in the sky. The righteous goes to Him, and the rest have His judgment to look forward to. Remember, Matthew 25 is not a separate chapter detailing another set of events. Matthew 25 is a continuation of Matthew 24, so the judgment that is mentioned in Matthew 25 has to be included as the events of things that will happen when the Lord returns. Since the first thing He does is take out of the world the people that the world attacked, then they will not be on earth to appear for judgment. On top of that, their treatment is the source of Jesus Christ's judgment of the world here in Matthew 25. This judgment is by no means the GWT judgment.

                              Verse 46 is the concluding verse, wrapping up everything that Jesus Christ talked to His disciples during the Olivet Discourse. The righteous, those who were picked up by Him and those accepted by Him in judgment go on to everlasting life, while the wicked, the fake believers, and the wicked church leaders will find themselves in Hell or worse. This verse does not turn the entire discourse into the End of the World discourse. Verse 46 only confirms what Jesus was saying throughout the Olivet Discourse. Also, Matthew purposely failed to give any of the other details concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, details that Jesus did give that Luke has recorded in his version. That may be because Matthew may have read Luke's account and decided to write his own version, detailing the things that he found to be of great importance, including all of the details of the signs of the Lord's return. Some of these details are found in Luke's account, whereas the lionshare of the events that lead directly up to the coming of the Lord is written here in Matthew's account with greater focus on the events that lead up to His return, instead of Luke's version which emphasizes the events that led up to the Diaspora.

                              The redeemed will join Christ in judging the wicked when Jesus comes in all His glory. This is further proof that the Coming of the Lord is the time “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” To propel this event 1,000 yrs beyond the Coming of the Lord is just not reasonable or remotely indicated in the reading. Here, like Matthew 25, the disciple confirms that the Coming of Christ is when He appears in glory.
                              Who is placing 1000 years here? I have not, nor have I insinuated it.

                              Sequence of events that are explained in Matthew 24-25

                              1. Birth Pangs
                              2. Persecution
                              3. Great Tribulation
                              4. The Return
                              5. Gathering of the Saints
                              6. banishment of the fake saints
                              7. Judgment of the wicked

                              When one incorporates the events written in Revelation, then we have a clearer picture.

                              5 turns into 5a and 5b.

                              5a. Bowls of God's wrath being poured on those who wear the Mark of the Beast
                              5b. Satan and his people will be gathering the wicked leadership of the world to fight against God, while Jesus is gathering His people to Himself.

                              6. turns to Babylon's destruction as well as the banishment of the fake saints.
                              7. turns into the Battle at Armageddon
                              8. The Beast's defeat, Satan's imprisonment and birds are feasting on the flesh of those Jesus slain
                              9. Jesus turns His attention to the rest of the world. Judgment of the remnant.

                              There is no 1000 year period in which Jesus judges mankind. It happens only once, when He is done dealing wit the rest of the things He has to do, like destroying the kingdom of the Beast. Before this judgment happens, the righteous are gone. So, who are the "sheep" in Matthew 25? Anyone else wanna say, "here we go again"?

                              You are not getting what the Lord is saying.
                              This is where I break format. You could not be more wrong. I know exactly what the Lord is saying, and I am giving that word to everyone here. Just because you do not accept it does not diminish the effect of the words that I was taught. These words have been derived from actual scripture, and I have endeavored to keep my own preconceptions muted while showing only what I have learned from reading my Bible. I did not go to a seminary school. I just read the book. I do not need to go to a school. All I needed to do was trust God, read His scriptures, and understand what they are saying. Nothing more. My grasp of the English Language, plus the sheer number of differing translations that I have taken the time to read, makes me qualified to understand what the Lord is saying, and I need not a single other human to relate to me any of His messages unless I become to proud to hear them from Him. Now I would be extremely wrong to say that you are not getting what the Lord is saying, which is why I will not write it.

                              You are focusing on the symbol without looking at the context of the passage that contains the words sheep and goats. I have already noted that there are people called sheep and people called goats. Did you notice that these people are from the nations?

                              Matthew 25:32
                              All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

                              Do you know that these people are alive and not dead when they are judged?
                              Do you know that those who are goats are not hurled into Hell, but placed into the same place that the Beast and the False Prophet will end up?

                              The context of the passage is the key to understanding the passage. I do not need to focus on sheep when I realized that the sheep in this judgment are not the same people as the Believers, who were received by Him before this judgment happens. If we are too busy arguing sheep, then the meaning of the passage would remain as it was for the last 1900 years, lost.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                                Originally posted by wpm View Post
                                There are numerous Scriptures that forbid your theory. I will take them one at time so that you can address each carefully.

                                2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”


                                Are you saying that the figure of speech, the phrase, "In flaming fire taking vengeance" is a literal expression of the vengeance the Lord will have?

                                Is that what Revelation, Matthew, 1 Corinthians and the other books on the Old Testament confirm? Not in the slightest. Many things happen while the Lord is taking vengeance on those who do not know God. That is why those other books are part of the Bible today. This verse only tells us that He is coming to take revenge on those who do not know Him. That is it. Nothing more can be gleamed out of that, unless you now want to say that Jesus Christ is coming back as a ball of fire, something that Acts 1 would disagree with you on.

                                Acts 1:9-11
                                After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

                                10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

                                Jesus did not ascend to heaven as a ball of fire, therefore He will not return as a ball of fire. He will return on clouds of Glory, just as Matthew 24 tells us. Content instead of symbolism.

                                If all the believers are rescued and glorified when Jesus and all the wicked are destroyed from His very presence why are you populating the new earth with mortal rebels?
                                Maybe you are attempting to square what I am saying with what you believe. I may be able to assist.

                                1. The world does not end when the Lord returns.

                                Once you get that portion of what I am writing to you, then you can understand the next step:

                                2. When Christ comes to the earth, He will first receive His people unto Himself. Afterwards, He will deal with the world and the rebels in it.
                                3. When the Judgment in Matthew 25 happens, Babylon will have already been destroyed, the Beast and False Prophet will have already been hurled into the Lake of Fire, and Satan will have already been sealed away from the earth to begin serving his sentence of 1000 years in the Abyss.

                                Once Jesus is finished dealing with the leaders of the earth, then He will set His attention to those that remain on the earth. This will probably happen all in one day. The people are remain on the earth at this point are those who were not sent to Armageddon, and those that the Lord is still protecting outside of Jerusalem. These are the only people on earth left that can be judged. The remnant of the nations will be judged. Those of the nations that had given aid will be received by Him. Those who did not, which will be the vast majority of them, will be gone, ousted to the Lake of Fire, the future home of Satan, Death, and everything else wicked. It appears that you do not understand that God is not going to send His Son, the Comet, into the earth, destroying it. We are not the dinosaurs, and God knows it'll take more than comets to kill off humanity. He is going to do it right, and that means that everyone will be judged, everyone left on earth after He destroys the Beast, the False Prophet, and the kingdom of the Beast.


                                1 Corinthians 6:9 confirms:
                                “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”


                                No one here is saying that the wicked will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I trust Jesus judgments, so I have no problem with Him repaying people for the kindness that they do to help people like me live until He returns.

                                You seem to disagree with this.

                                Inheriting
                                the kingdom(Matthew 25:34) is synonymous with inheriting“life eternal” [COLOR=#000000](Matthew 25:46).

                                What is more, you force mortals unto the new earth in your paradigm. Scripture forbids that.
                                My earth is not new. the Earth that the Lord will return to will not be new. When He judges the world, it will be this one that He is going to judge, and then claim. The system that will run the earth will be. It will be run by the Son of God, not the steward who refused to cede power to his Master. This earth will be remade into something that the Lord will like, and while doing all of that, He will also be busy causing every dominion to submit to Him, here on earth. His earth will have people populating it because it is written in Revelation 20. Verses 7-10 detail Satan's final rebellion which causes God the Father to completely destroy the earth. There cannot be a rebellion if there are no humans on earth for Satan to tempt when he is released from the Abyss. You are the one making the Revelation 21 connection to Isaiah 65. I am not there with you. Isaiah 65 shows a time period where there are mortal humans running around on the planet. Zechariah 14 does the same thing. You are the one making the jump saying that acceptance into Jesus Christ's kingdom is the same as entering the NHNE. I have not agreed with you on that, nor will I.

                                Seriously, I am not going to budge on this issue. You should seek another point of contention to debate me on. I am certain I have left plenty for you to choose from.

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