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Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

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  • #61
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
    I believe I have covered this already, wpm. You are not going to agree with me. That's fine. I get that. The fact still remains, however, that the judgment that is found in Matthew 25 is not the same judgment as the one in Revelation 20:11-15. There are some serious differences that I have already highlighted. We can go around in circles, but I am certain that we will get nowhere like this. This is only foreign because everyone assumes that this judgment in Matthew 25 is the same judgment as the one written in Revelation. The criteria in which Jesus Christ uses to judge the people there at the Matthew 25 judgment is not the same as the criteria used in the Last Day Judgment. In Revelation 20, books are opened,
    You are making 2 judgment days out of 1. This is speaking of the one and only future Coming. Your paradigm requires this mode of interpretation but it contradicts Scripture.

    Judging the dead

    Revelation 11:15-18 says: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

    The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” When is the time for judging the dead? At the last trump which is after the thousand years

    This is the same judgment that is found in Revelation 20:11-15, which records of this all-consummating day, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

    How many times will the dead be judged? Twice! I don't think so! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

    the earth is gone completely
    The earth is completely regenerated

    Revelation 20:11-15 simply correlates with repeated Second Coming passages. You have to ignore passage after passage for your theory to fit.

    Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-51, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    After telling us that “Heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is Coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

    Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

    The Coming of the Lord is presented as the closing day of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return. Mark 13:31 correlates, saying, heaven and earth shall pass away,” Luke says the same, in Luke 21:33, saying, heaven and earth shall pass away.” Again the passing away of this current “heaven and earth” are carefully connected by Christ to His Second Coming. The timing mentioned here agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the heavens and earth passing away when the day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night.

    2 Peter 3:10-13 declares: the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

    A literal reading of this passage that is directed toward the end time scoffers shows that the end will be absolute. It is watertight. I have seen many Premils try and explain this away, none with any success. We should note, the original text relating to 2 Peter 3:10-13 is even more fiery and destructive than the KJV wording. It suggests: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pareleusontai (or) go or pass away, or perish with a great noise, and the elements shall kausoumena lutheesetai (or) be loosed by being set on fire, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be katakakeesetai (or) burned up utterly or consumed wholly. Seeing then that all these things shall be luomenoon (or) dissolved, loosened or broke up … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be lutheesontai (or) dissolved, melted or loosed, and the elements shall kausoumena teeketai (or) melt by being set on fire?”

    The earth (gee) here is the ground, the land, the solid part of the globe. The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be utterly burned up or wholly consumed. The Holy Spirit could hardly have used more explicit language. Peter is talking about the dissolving of everything - thus his comprehensive language. I know that you have to dilute down the incredible destruction involved in this passage to let Premil fit, but in reality it is crystal clear to most observers that it is the complete removal of the old corrupt arrangement and the replacement with the new perfect arrangement. Premil requires its adherents to explain away clear texts like this.

    We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en he้)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete destruction attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

    and Satan is not sealed up anywhere other than the Lake of Fire where he truly belongs.
    Satan was spiritually bound so that the nations would be liberated

    He was defeated/bound at the First Advent as I have repeatedly showed you and which you repeatedly ignore. Again, you must ignore/avoid for your paradigm to fit.

    He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound)

    Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

    Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

    Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

    Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

    Revelation 20:1-3 states, And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

    In this passage we see a powerful angel coming down from heaven with a chain and a key. The next thing that happens is that the angel in view captures a “dragon” and binds him for a protracted period of time in a prison. Now before we go any further, surely no one could dispute we are looking at a symbolic depiction.

    It is patently obvious with the most basic perusal of Revelation that this apocalyptic book is engulfed in an abundance of obscure symbolism and allegory and deep spiritual applications. The chapter we are looking at (Revelation 20) is saturated in the midst of emblematic surroundings. In fact, no other book in Scripture is more figurative. A lot of innovative concepts, ideas and theories have been imported into Revelation 20 over the years, most of which don’t remotely exist in or fit the text. Careful scrutiny of the chapter will reveal as much of what Revelation 20 isn’t saying as what it is. In fact, much has been attributed to John that cannot be found anywhere else in his writing.

    In this strange depiction the dragon is said to represent “the devil” / “Satan.” This is not open to dispute. But please remember the picture being painted of the devil is metaphorical. It is not a literal description. The scene John is looking at involves a symbolic dragon being bound by a symbolic chain. Many Bible students get tied up (if you excuse the pun) with the interpretation rather than first acknowledging John was actual looking at a figurative vision. This has led many to get confused as to what is really being described here. What I am saying is: it is not the symbolism that is important but the meaning of the symbolism.

    In the Matthew 25 account, only those who are left on the earth are facing this judgment.
    Who and what is left behind is immediately burned up. Again you present this by avoiding clear and explicit Scripture.

    Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    The first part of verses 17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

    1. The flesh of kings,
    2. The flesh of captains,
    3. The flesh of mighty men,
    4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
    5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

    The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

    The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

    I Thessalonians 5:2-7 is a case-in-point. It says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

    Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

    Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

    Here you have it!!!

    Jesus said in Luke 17, the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all(v27).

    Jesus continues, the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all (v29).

    The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

    The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
    The Lord has already gathered His people earlier in the passage, (Matthew 24:29-31), and now is gathering the survivors of the nations that have attacked the Believers. Those who were not slain by the sword in Jesus Christ's mouth and eaten by birds are in Jerusalem facing judgment from the returning, conquering King. The words speak for themselves. I understand that when the world ends, all who have ever lived who have not been transformed when the Lord returned or cast into the Lake of Fire when He judged them shortly after His return face the God of the universe, both the "righteous" and the wicked. I also understand that you believe that the judgment that Jesus resides over after His return is the exact same judgment that is found in Revelation 20. I will continue to disagree with you on that point, and like you, I am entrenched in my position. The best solution for this dilemma is a handshake and a good day bid.

    On more thing, I do not consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be a parable. There is way too many things defined for this passage to be a parable. According to my timeline, the Lord's first duty at His return is to gather His people to Himself. Nothing else happens while this is happening, save for Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet calling forth lying spirits to bring the leaders of the world to Armageddon to do battle against the returning God. Matthew 25:31 tells us that the Lord is come and is establishing His Kingdom, which means that everything that is supposed to have happen in Revelation 19 is complete. So, the wicked leadership of the world, along with the armies of the world are subdued and destroyed by Him by the time this judgment happens. This is Jesus tying up loose ends and explaining to us what happens to the rest of the world after He returns. It also explains one concept that is foreign to you.

    It explains how there can be mortal men on the earth while Jesus Christ is on earth ruling it. The reason why there are humans on earth when Satan is released from the Abyss is because the Lord allows people who have given aid to the Believers to continue to live, giving them a new set of rules in which they are to live by, which are the exact same rules that you and I have been working diligently to live by today. Unlike us today, they will not have Satan on their backs, tempting them to do exactly what you are not supposed to do. By Jesus honoring his words from Matthew 10, those who help the Believers will not be treated like the wicked when the Lord judges the remnant of the earth.

    The dead is missing from this judgment.

    The dead are not even referenced in Matthew 25. This is the first, main, and biggest difference between the Lord Judgment when He returns, and the GWT Judgment. Books are opened in the GWT judgment when there is not a single book opened in Matthew 25.

    I am not including a third group of people. I am eliminating one group of people as being those who are being judged, realizing that these people have already been judged when He first appears in the sky. The righteous goes to Him, and the rest have His judgment to look forward to. Remember, Matthew 25 is not a separate chapter detailing another set of events. Matthew 25 is a continuation of Matthew 24, so the judgment that is mentioned in Matthew 25 has to be included as the events of things that will happen when the Lord returns. Since the first thing He does is take out of the world the people that the world attacked, then they will not be on earth to appear for judgment. On top of that, their treatment is the source of Jesus Christ's judgment of the world here in Matthew 25. This judgment is by no means the GWT judgment.

    Verse 46 is the concluding verse, wrapping up everything that Jesus Christ talked to His disciples during the Olivet Discourse. The righteous, those who were picked up by Him and those accepted by Him in judgment go on to everlasting life, while the wicked, the fake believers, and the wicked church leaders will find themselves in Hell or worse. This verse does not turn the entire discourse into the End of the World discourse. Verse 46 only confirms what Jesus was saying throughout the Olivet Discourse. Also, Matthew purposely failed to give any of the other details concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, details that Jesus did give that Luke has recorded in his version. That may be because Matthew may have read Luke's account and decided to write his own version, detailing the things that he found to be of great importance, including all of the details of the signs of the Lord's return. Some of these details are found in Luke's account, whereas the lionshare of the events that lead directly up to the coming of the Lord is written here in Matthew's account with greater focus on the events that lead up to His return, instead of Luke's version which emphasizes the events that led up to the Diaspora.



    Who is placing 1000 years here? I have not, nor have I insinuated it.

    Sequence of events that are explained in Matthew 24-25

    1. Birth Pangs
    2. Persecution
    3. Great Tribulation
    4. The Return
    5. Gathering of the Saints
    6. banishment of the fake saints
    7. Judgment of the wicked

    When one incorporates the events written in Revelation, then we have a clearer picture.

    5 turns into 5a and 5b.

    5a. Bowls of God's wrath being poured on those who wear the Mark of the Beast
    5b. Satan and his people will be gathering the wicked leadership of the world to fight against God, while Jesus is gathering His people to Himself.

    6. turns to Babylon's destruction as well as the banishment of the fake saints.
    7. turns into the Battle at Armageddon
    8. The Beast's defeat, Satan's imprisonment and birds are feasting on the flesh of those Jesus slain
    9. Jesus turns His attention to the rest of the world. Judgment of the remnant.

    There is no 1000 year period in which Jesus judges mankind. It happens only once, when He is done dealing wit the rest of the things He has to do, like destroying the kingdom of the Beast. Before this judgment happens, the righteous are gone. So, who are the "sheep" in Matthew 25? Anyone else wanna say, "here we go again"?



    This is where I break format. You could not be more wrong. I know exactly what the Lord is saying, and I am giving that word to everyone here. Just because you do not accept it does not diminish the effect of the words that I was taught. These words have been derived from actual scripture, and I have endeavored to keep my own preconceptions muted while showing only what I have learned from reading my Bible. I did not go to a seminary school. I just read the book. I do not need to go to a school. All I needed to do was trust God, read His scriptures, and understand what they are saying. Nothing more. My grasp of the English Language, plus the sheer number of differing translations that I have taken the time to read, makes me qualified to understand what the Lord is saying, and I need not a single other human to relate to me any of His messages unless I become to proud to hear them from Him. Now I would be extremely wrong to say that you are not getting what the Lord is saying, which is why I will not write it.

    You are focusing on the symbol without looking at the context of the passage that contains the words sheep and goats. I have already noted that there are people called sheep and people called goats. Did you notice that these people are from the nations?

    Matthew 25:32
    All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

    Do you know that these people are alive and not dead when they are judged?
    Do you know that those who are goats are not hurled into Hell, but placed into the same place that the Beast and the False Prophet will end up?

    The context of the passage is the key to understanding the passage. I do not need to focus on sheep when I realized that the sheep in this judgment are not the same people as the Believers, who were received by Him before this judgment happens. If we are too busy arguing sheep, then the meaning of the passage would remain as it was for the last 1900 years, lost.
    I have demonstrated how this doesn't fit.
    Last edited by wpm; Feb 8 2014, 04:08 PM.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

      Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
      Are you saying that the figure of speech, the phrase, "In flaming fire taking vengeance" is a literal expression of the vengeance the Lord will have?

      Is that what Revelation, Matthew, 1 Corinthians and the other books on the Old Testament confirm? Not in the slightest. Many things happen while the Lord is taking vengeance on those who do not know God. That is why those other books are part of the Bible today. This verse only tells us that He is coming to take revenge on those who do not know Him. That is it. Nothing more can be gleamed out of that, unless you now want to say that Jesus Christ is coming back as a ball of fire, something that Acts 1 would disagree with you on.

      Acts 1:9-11
      After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

      10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

      Jesus did not ascend to heaven as a ball of fire, therefore He will not return as a ball of fire. He will return on clouds of Glory, just as Matthew 24 tells us. Content instead of symbolism.



      Maybe you are attempting to square what I am saying with what you believe. I may be able to assist.

      1. The world does not end when the Lord returns.

      Once you get that portion of what I am writing to you, then you can understand the next step:

      2. When Christ comes to the earth, He will first receive His people unto Himself. Afterwards, He will deal with the world and the rebels in it.
      3. When the Judgment in Matthew 25 happens, Babylon will have already been destroyed, the Beast and False Prophet will have already been hurled into the Lake of Fire, and Satan will have already been sealed away from the earth to begin serving his sentence of 1000 years in the Abyss.

      Once Jesus is finished dealing with the leaders of the earth, then He will set His attention to those that remain on the earth. This will probably happen all in one day. The people are remain on the earth at this point are those who were not sent to Armageddon, and those that the Lord is still protecting outside of Jerusalem. These are the only people on earth left that can be judged. The remnant of the nations will be judged. Those of the nations that had given aid will be received by Him. Those who did not, which will be the vast majority of them, will be gone, ousted to the Lake of Fire, the future home of Satan, Death, and everything else wicked. It appears that you do not understand that God is not going to send His Son, the Comet, into the earth, destroying it. We are not the dinosaurs, and God knows it'll take more than comets to kill off humanity. He is going to do it right, and that means that everyone will be judged, everyone left on earth after He destroys the Beast, the False Prophet, and the kingdom of the Beast.




      No one here is saying that the wicked will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I trust Jesus judgments, so I have no problem with Him repaying people for the kindness that they do to help people like me live until He returns.



      My earth is not new. the Earth that the Lord will return to will not be new. When He judges the world, it will be this one that He is going to judge, and then claim. The system that will run the earth will be. It will be run by the Son of God, not the steward who refused to cede power to his Master. This earth will be remade into something that the Lord will like, and while doing all of that, He will also be busy causing every dominion to submit to Him, here on earth. His earth will have people populating it because it is written in Revelation 20. Verses 7-10 detail Satan's final rebellion which causes God the Father to completely destroy the earth. There cannot be a rebellion if there are no humans on earth for Satan to tempt when he is released from the Abyss. You are the one making the Revelation 21 connection to Isaiah 65. I am not there with you. Isaiah 65 shows a time period where there are mortal humans running around on the planet. Zechariah 14 does the same thing. You are the one making the jump saying that acceptance into Jesus Christ's kingdom is the same as entering the NHNE. I have not agreed with you on that, nor will I.

      Seriously, I am not going to budge on this issue. You should seek another point of contention to debate me on. I am certain I have left plenty for you to choose from.
      You have totally avoided the Scripture I have presented that proves the earth is renewed when Jesus comes and that no wicked or mortal will survive His appearing. Whether you are meaning to do it, you reward the wicked that have rejected Christ by ushering them unto your millennial earth. This is not in the inspired text. I refer you back to my last post that I believe rebuts what you are saying.
      Last edited by wpm; Feb 8 2014, 04:04 PM.
      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

      WPM

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

        Posted by wpm post 61
        How many times will the dead be judged? Twice! I don't think so! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
        Right! It does not say 'after this the judgments'. If there was more than one judgment time, wouldn't he have said it with plural... judgments? But he said, "It's appointed to man ONCE to die, and after this the judgment."
        My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

        "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

          Originally posted by Diggindeeper View Post
          Posted by wpm post 61


          Right! It does not say 'after this the judgments'. If there was more than one judgment time, wouldn't he have said it with plural... judgments? But he said, "It's appointed to man ONCE to die, and after this the judgment."
          Yep, and before this fixed day ,God is patient, not wanting any to perish in it....but all people everywhere to come to repentance.
          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

            Originally posted by Diggindeeper View Post
            Posted by wpm post 61


            Right! It does not say 'after this the judgments'. If there was more than one judgment time, wouldn't he have said it with plural... judgments? But he said, "It's appointed to man ONCE to die, and after this the judgment."
            The truth is so simple, there is no need to complicate it.
            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

            WPM

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

              And what is the truth you are trying to convey? One sentence please.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                There is one coming judgment and not 2 or more, at different times. (See post 63)

                One sentence reply, please.
                My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                  Originally posted by guysmith View Post
                  And what is the truth you are trying to convey? One sentence please.
                  I would say the Jesus comes to render to everyman...and his reward is also with him when he comes.

                  Jesus said it in one sentence....and explains the reward in the next.


                  Rev 22
                  12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


                  14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. (NHNE)
                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                    Originally posted by guysmith View Post
                    And what is the truth you are trying to convey? One sentence please.
                    That the Coming of Christ ushers in "the end," which sees the final judgment, the glorification of the elect/earth and the removal of the curse/the wicked and all wickedness.
                    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                    WPM

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                      People are entitled to believe as they please. I have shown my evidence, and I am not about to go through the merry-go-round that I have found myself in these last few posts. I am not attempting to convert anyone, so to all of the readers who enjoyed this thread due to my posts, understand that I am not attempting to convert anyone to what I believe. It is not that important to me. My beliefs are nothing more tan the words that are written in the pages of the Bible, and I will continue to believe as I have since my conversion. I have shown what I believe. I have shown why, and I am satisfied. Though others will continue to use the ways of this world to explain away certain details that their doctrines cannot explain, I am done going on this merry-go-round.

                      Wpm, I could never believe your paradigm. It is filled with too many assumptions, like the idea that there is only one judgment instead of two. When I have to decide whether to believe what someone tells me versus what I have read in scripture, like the FACT that Isaiah 65:20 shows death in all his glory, being represented in your NHNE. That is a contradiction of Revelation 21:4. You invalidate scriptures like Revelation 20, while hyperliteralizing one scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, to suit your own purposes. If this is what the Amil point of view is all about, then count me out. I refuse to throw away valid scriptures just to prove a pointless point. If Amils tell me that I do not hear the Lord's voice, or that I do not understand what the Lord is saying, I say to you, you can keep what you call truth to yourself, because I am not interested in anything else anyone who shows that attitude has to say. So go ahead, ignore actual scripture and the contexts of those scriptures just because they do not fit your paradigm. You can keep your paradigm. I am just fine with mine, just how the Lord has taught me.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                        I'm entirely different than you, the Seeker. I HAVE, over the years and over much scrutiny of the scriptures, changed what I thought was to be my permanent beliefs in several areas. So I could never proclaim that 'I will continue to believe as I have since my conversion.' I still could change my views. I say that because I have come to realize that I am ever learning, and ever wanting to learn more.

                        I don't believe any of us ever actually 'arrive' and know all there is to know in the Holy Bible. I think rather that we just may all be at different stages of our 'learning'.
                        My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                        "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                          Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
                          People are entitled to believe as they please. I have shown my evidence, and I am not about to go through the merry-go-round that I have found myself in these last few posts. I am not attempting to convert anyone, so to all of the readers who enjoyed this thread due to my posts, understand that I am not attempting to convert anyone to what I believe. It is not that important to me. My beliefs are nothing more tan the words that are written in the pages of the Bible, and I will continue to believe as I have since my conversion. I have shown what I believe. I have shown why, and I am satisfied. Though others will continue to use the ways of this world to explain away certain details that their doctrines cannot explain, I am done going on this merry-go-round.

                          Wpm, I could never believe your paradigm. It is filled with too many assumptions, like the idea that there is only one judgment instead of two. When I have to decide whether to believe what someone tells me versus what I have read in scripture, like the FACT that Isaiah 65:20 shows death in all his glory, being represented in your NHNE. That is a contradiction of Revelation 21:4. You invalidate scriptures like Revelation 20, while hyperliteralizing one scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, to suit your own purposes. If this is what the Amil point of view is all about, then count me out. I refuse to throw away valid scriptures just to prove a pointless point. If Amils tell me that I do not hear the Lord's voice, or that I do not understand what the Lord is saying, I say to you, you can keep what you call truth to yourself, because I am not interested in anything else anyone who shows that attitude has to say. So go ahead, ignore actual scripture and the contexts of those scriptures just because they do not fit your paradigm. You can keep your paradigm. I am just fine with mine, just how the Lord has taught me.
                          You again resort to "what saith Rev 20." 2 Thessalonians 1:8 was just one of many I was going to present that rebuts your belief. You even avoided it. You force the whole of Scripture into your opinion of Rev 20. Many of us Amils were Premils, and changed by studying this with an open-mind, so it is wrong for you to suggest what you do. Until you address the arguments I can only conclude that there is no rebuttal. I have addressed your theory on Isa 65:20. But again you totally ignore/avoid. The sad thing is you will present this argument a few wks down the road as if it is valid evidence. Until you address the holes in your theory it will always be leaking. The supposed Premil proof-texts have been dissected to the stage of exhaustion, yet the countless texts that support a climactic Coming of Christ are swiftly dismissed. There is more prophetic Scripture than Rev 20, Isa 65 and Zech 14.
                          Last edited by wpm; Feb 8 2014, 04:05 PM.
                          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                          WPM

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                            Originally posted by wpm View Post
                            You are making 2 judgment days out of 1. This is speaking of the one and only future Coming. Your paradigm requires this mode of interpretation but it contradicts Scripture.

                            Judging the dead

                            Revelation 11:15-18 says: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

                            The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” When is the time for judging the dead? At the last trump which is after the thousand years

                            This is the same judgment that is found in Revelation 20:11-15, which records of this all-consummating day, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

                            How many times will the dead be judged? Twice! I don't think so! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
                            Where does it say that there is only one judgment? What scripture mentions that? There is no verses in the bible that mention that there will only be one judgment. However, when one reads Matthew 25:31-46, which is the judgment that happens after the Lord conquers the Earth, the content tells us that these cannot possibly be the one same judgment found in Revelation 20:11-15.

                            Let's take a look at the verse you chose to use to mention this judgment.

                            Revelation 11:17-18
                            Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

                            18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                            I see a lot of "and" here. This is the verse you use to say that God only judges once, correct?

                            And the nations were angry, that is the Great Tribulation being referenced, and the second coming is referenced too. There's another "and" that gives reference to the judging of the dead. This is a reference to Revelation 20:11-15. I definitely get that the dead are only judged once.

                            What you fail to see is the FACT that there is no dead being judged in Matthew 25:31-46. The word "dead" was NOT used once in that entire passage, let alone in any portion of the Olivet Discourse, where the judgment that you say will not happen is recorded in scripture. Jesus does not judge the dead when He judges the world after His return. Go ahead, read Matthew 24-25. Find the word dead there. Find any reference to judging the dead there. You won't. Why? Because Jesus is not judging the dead here, but the living.

                            What is Written

                            1 Corinthians 15:22-28
                            For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

                            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

                            24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

                            25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

                            26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                            27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

                            28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

                            Why must Jesus rule this world?

                            Zechariah 14:9
                            And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

                            Psalm 2:7-8
                            I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

                            8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

                            From reverse, the Lord has been given a promise by the Lord of Heaven and Earth. He says to His Son, "Ask, and I will give you the heathen," and the earth, (Psalm 2:8). In Zechariah 14, it is foretold that the Lord will rule this earth. With that prophecy came another one that states that there will be no more idols on earth. This is accompanied by the prophecy that mentions that the Lord will rule this earth. (Zechariah 14:9). From these two verses alone, the Bible is saying that Jesus is going to rule this world, and all of the idols that are currently on the earth will be destroyed. No one will be praying to the god of their choice, because there will only be one choice available, or death.

                            Psalm 2:10-12
                            Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

                            11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

                            12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

                            Why must He rule the Earth? The Bible explains that as well.

                            When the Lord returns, He will bring His reward with Him. That is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:23. Verse 24 further explains that it is the job of Jesus Christ to offer up to His Father a spotless Kingdom, one where all power, dominion, and authority is subdued. This is what Paul calls "the end". The end cannot happen until all of God's adversaries are subdued, which Paul furthers his explanation by stating that the last enemy to be subdued is Death. So, according to Paul, after Christ returns and gives his reward to the Saints, Jesus has to subdue all power and authority here on earth. What are those powers and principalities that Paul is talking about? The only one he mentioned is Death.

                            In your NHNE, death is utilized in Isaiah 65:20. So that earth is not new, since death is in it. Since that is the case, then this is not the New Heaven of Revelation 21, but the new earth of Isaiah 65, which is the verse that Paul is making a reference to in 1 Corinthians 15:25-26. It is during this time, when there is peace on earth, wit the Lord ruling the earth, where Death has to be subdued.

                            That means that everything on earth has to be freed from the grip of sin and her son, Death. People dwell in houses in Isaiah 65-66. Peace is around, as well as the sinner, (again verse 20) are still around on earth, with the sinner dying young and the obedient living longer than 100 years. It is during this time period, the one in Isaiah 65-66, the one written in Revelation 20:4-6, the one written in Zechariah 14:16-21, where Jesus, as King of the Earth, moves to subdue all powers, principalities, and death. The sinner will have to learn how to not sin, unless they find themselves dead at a young age, during this time period. The saints will be ruling this planet along with Jesus Christ, and I am certain that they will teach he people how to live in obedience. Since the saints will be there, the people who were welcomed into His Kingdom on Earth will have no excuses. The Saints will teach, report, and rule, according to the desires of Jesus Christ. They will learn, or perish. The effects of sin, as a result of people being able to resist sin as a result of the training that Jesus Christ and the Saints give them, will weaken the power that sin has over mankind. With that weakening, comes the weakening of something else, death. When the people are free of sin, living on total obedience to God, that is when death will be weakened to the point that it will become subdued.

                            And then Satan will be released. Afterwards, in one shot, Death, Satan, the wicked, are all destroyed, along with the earth and Heaven, because the Lord will have already finished subduing death by the time that Satan is released. Once Death is subdued, it is written that Jesus will then hand back the earth over to His Father, showing that all authority and power has been subdued by the Son. Afterwards, Satan will have attempted yet again to take over the earth, not realizing that he is only sealing his, and the wicked's fates. This is where the wicked will say there is peace and safety, and suddenly the earth is completely and utterly destroyed, as written in 2 Peter 3. It will not be Jesus Christ destroying the world in a ball of fire. It will be His Father, destroying all things with fire. Paul acknowledges this, and calls this event, when Jesus hands the kingdom over to His Father, the end. It is the end because He is going to destroy it. Afterwards, when all life is extinguished from the earth, along with the earth itself, God will bring all of the dead to His throneroom, and the books are opened.

                            Now you say that there is only one judgment.

                            Matthew 25:31-32
                            “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

                            Revelation 20:11-13
                            Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

                            I noticed some things right away.

                            1. Matthew 25 talks of the nations being judged; Revelation 20 tells of all of the dead being judged.
                            2. Not a single reference to a book of dead is referenced in Matthew 25; not a single reference to the nations or the earth is referenced in Revelation 20
                            3. There are no books here at this judgment in Matthew 25; there are plenty of books seen at this judgment, along with the Book of Life in Revelation 20.
                            4. the people are being gathered from the nations in Matthew 25; people are being raised from the dead to be judged in Revelation 20.

                            From these things alone, the evidence, meaning the words themselves in the context in which they were written, shows some very stark differences that makes one question the validity of the one judgment proclamation. But there is more.

                            short version

                            1. Angels gather these people to be judged from the nations of the world in Matthew 25; the world is gone in Revelation 20.
                            2. The King decides who lives and who dies by how they treated the Saints in Matthew 25; the composite actions of the dead while they were alive is the criteria that God uses to judge in Revelation 20.
                            3. The Lake of Fire is only referenced in Matthew 25; the Lake of Fire is defined in Revelation 20.
                            4. The "sheep" go on to live in the King's Kingdom in Matthew 25; the righteous dead gain immortality in Revelation 20.
                            5. Earth is still around in Matthew 25; the earth is destroyed by fire by the time Revelation 20 judgment happens.
                            6. God the Son judges the nations at His return in Matthew 25; God the Father judges all of the dead in Revelation 20.
                            7. The earth is not subdued during the Matthew 25 judgment; the Earth has already been given back to God the Father in Revelation 20, and thus was destroyed (The End).

                            Matthew 25 explains what will happen to those who do not get eaten by birds, and also explains how the events listed in Zechariah 14:16-21 come into being. There are no loose ends in the Revelation 20 judgment, since all life has been destroyed from the earth, along with the earth itself.

                            I know that those who wish to believe that there is only one judgment will continue to do so. I am not among them. I see plainly, two judgments that will happen. One by the Son, the other by His Father. One happens as He is about to rule over the earth, and the other happens after the earth is destroyed. Those who claim that there is only one judgment claim that the Matthew 25 judgment by the Son is a parable. I disagree with that sentiment, and find that those who believe this fail to read the verses contained in that judgment. This is why I do not use commentaries or the works of other people, since they can make mistakes, like the one made by Justin Martyr. Reading and understanding the words on the pages of the Bible is more than sufficient in understanding God's messages for all of us.

                            Like I have stated before, the Matthew 25 judgment has been ignored for literally over 1900 years by theologians and people in positions of authority in the churches. Because it is not fashionable to think that there are more than one judgment, they label the judgment here in Matthew 25 in the same vein as Revelation 20; all because they see the word judge and figure that Matthew 25's judgment is the same as the judgment found in Revelation 20. I have just listed most of the differences between the judgments, and conclude by saying that those who have failed to even read this judgment cannot say that there is only one judgment, because scripture tells us another thing altogether.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                              Originally posted by wpm View Post
                              I have proved that all your theories above are forbidden.
                              No. You have proven nothing.

                              The earth is completely regenerated

                              Revelation 20:11-15 simply correlates with repeated Second Coming passages. You have to ignore passage after passage for your theory to fit.
                              Do you not know that there are 10 verses before verse 11 where the second coming had already happened? Are you saying that He is coming a third time? Who's trying to fit what into where? What do you do with the first 10 verses of Revelation 20? Faze them into the Great Tribulation to make it seem as though those verses only deal with the time of Satan's wrath, where he is sealed away from the earth, yet giving his authority to the Beast while being sealed away from the earth? Really? You think God is that weak that He can't even seal up a cherub? Or are you saying that Jesus is ruling the world, which is exactly what Revelation 20:6 tells us, with the saints while the Beast is attacking the saints and slaughtering us, just so that you can say that Revelation 20:7-10 is a retelling of the second coming? How much sense does that make?

                              Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-51, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

                              After telling us that “Heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is Coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”
                              Now you are saying that a phrase that everyone knows the true meaning of is not what it says it is? Everyone knows that Jesus said that the earth will pass away before any of His words do. You want to turn that phrase into, when He returns, the earth will be destroyed? Have you even read that passage, or are you playing word match with the Bible?

                              Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”
                              Are these jeans too tight?

                              The Coming of the Lord is presented as the closing day of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return. Mark 13:31 correlates, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Luke says the same, in Luke 21:33, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away.” Again the passing away of this current “heaven and earth” are carefully connected by Christ to His Second Coming. The timing mentioned here agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the heavens and earth passing away when the day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night.
                              I could not disagree any stronger than I am right now. You are twisting the scripture that mentions that Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not into when the day comes, the earth will pass away, foregoing everything written after verse 35. Then you have the gall to say that what I have written is forbidden? Of course it is forbidden to those who do not want to do anything other than be right all of the time. Let me tell you something. You have disproven nothing. You have proven nothing. I will not continue to play these word games with you. Let me know when you want to get serious when talking about the events that lead up to the end of the world.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                                Seeker, there ARE differing views and they can all be seen and discussed on this board. This is not a 'one view only' board! As hard as that is for you to accept, that's how it is. Your view may be right or it may be wrong. Same with me or wpm or anyone else. NONE of us can proclaim with certainty that OUR view is the only acceptable one.

                                I think those with the opposing view to yours are as serious as you are about their view. You need to understand that neither view is the ONLY acceptable one in Protestant Christianity.
                                My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                                "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                                Comment

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