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  • #76
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
    Where does it say that there is only one judgment? What scripture mentions that? There is no verses in the bible that mention that there will only be one judgment.
    Let us test who is relaying literal Scripture and who isn't.

    2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when Adam's race will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

    Is there anyone in Adam’s race that does not come under the umbrella of the living (quick) and dead?

    Even you would have to acknowledge: no! Then, everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

    1 Corinthians 4:5: “judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”

    Mankind is judged when Jesus comes - "every man"!

    Revelation 22:12: “behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

    Mankind is judged when Jesus comes - "every man"!

    Romans 2:5, 6: “after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds.”

    Mankind is judged when Jesus comes - "every man"!

    Romans 2:16 tells us that Christ’s return will be “the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

    Mankind is judged when Jesus comes!
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

      Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
      What is Written

      1 Corinthians 15:22-28
      For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
      23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
      24 Then cometh the end,
      when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
      26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
      27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
      28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
      Let the text speak for itself! The Coming of Christ is the end. You can rewrite it, reinterpret it or force 1,000 yrs into it but it is not there. Sorry. I believe this supports the Amil position.

      Why must Jesus rule this world?
      Because the Bible says so.
      Zechariah 14:9
      And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
      That is exactly what He is doing now!
      Psalm 2:7-8
      I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

      8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

      From reverse, the Lord has been given a promise by the Lord of Heaven and Earth. He says to His Son, "Ask, and I will give you the heathen," and the earth, (Psalm 2:8). In Zechariah 14, it is foretold that the Lord will rule this earth. With that prophecy came another one that states that there will be no more idols on earth. This is accompanied by the prophecy that mentions that the Lord will rule this earth. (Zechariah 14:9). From these two verses alone, the Bible is saying that Jesus is going to rule this world, and all of the idols that are currently on the earth will be destroyed. No one will be praying to the god of their choice, because there will only be one choice available, or death.

      Psalm 2:10-12
      Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

      11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

      12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

      Why must He rule the Earth? The Bible explains that as well.

      When the Lord returns, He will bring His reward with Him. That is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:23. Verse 24 further explains that it is the job of Jesus Christ to offer up to His Father a spotless Kingdom, one where all power, dominion, and authority is subdued. This is what Paul calls "the end". The end cannot happen until all of God's adversaries are subdued, which Paul furthers his explanation by stating that the last enemy to be subdued is Death. So, according to Paul, after Christ returns and gives his reward to the Saints, Jesus has to subdue all power and authority here on earth. What are those powers and principalities that Paul is talking about? The only one he mentioned is Death.
      He is already ruling!

      Psalm 2 commences, Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

      The first thing we note here is that the “King” is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 7 declares, “the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

      In verse 4 we see the habitation of the King; how He “sitteth in the heavens.” In fact, verse 6 goes on to figuratively explain, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”

      This interpretation is unequivocally confirmed in Acts 4:24-28, in the disciples prayer to God, where it records, “they (the disciples) lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said [in Psalm 2], Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

      The NT writers have already located the fulfillment of it. They relate it to the current age. Your conflict is with the Book, again. Here this seemingly global prophecy is directly applied to Christ and to His first Advent, and to the different leaders of His day that opposed Him.

      Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch in Acts 13:22-23 says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, he (God) raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

      Manifestly, these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly eternal throne. These earthly minded theologians had totally misunderstood the hour of their visitation and the actual form that Messiah’s reign would assume. In fact, Paul stated, in Acts 13:27-30, “For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

      Paul enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [in Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David” (vv 32-34).

      The promised Messiah has already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that the unbelieving Jews had carnally imagined. Paul here applies the Old Testament promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection to the throne; and explains how such a prophecy has already been gloriously fulfilled.

      This is irrefutable evidence that Psalm 2 relates to the intra-Advent period.

      In your NHNE, death is utilized in Isaiah 65:20. So that earth is not new, since death is in it. Since that is the case, then this is not the New Heaven of Revelation 21, but the new earth of Isaiah 65, which is the verse that Paul is making a reference to in 1 Corinthians 15:25-26. It is during this time, when there is peace on earth, wit the Lord ruling the earth, where Death has to be subdued.
      The NHNE arrive after the millennium, not before. Please read Rev 21-22. You create 2 NHNEs and 2 "last days" periods. You invent 2 last day's also, when we know there can only be one final day. This doesn't add up. You are duplicating because you wont place the kingdom age where Scripture places it.

      That means that everything on earth has to be freed from the grip of sin and her son, Death. People dwell in houses in Isaiah 65-66. Peace is around, as well as the sinner, (again verse 20) are still around on earth, with the sinner dying young and the obedient living longer than 100 years. It is during this time period, the one in Isaiah 65-66, the one written in Revelation 20:4-6, the one written in Zechariah 14:16-21, where Jesus, as King of the Earth, moves to subdue all powers, principalities, and death. The sinner will have to learn how to not sin, unless they find themselves dead at a young age, during this time period. The saints will be ruling this planet along with Jesus Christ, and I am certain that they will teach he people how to live in obedience. Since the saints will be there, the people who were welcomed into His Kingdom on Earth will have no excuses. The Saints will teach, report, and rule, according to the desires of Jesus Christ. They will learn, or perish. The effects of sin, as a result of people being able to resist sin as a result of the training that Jesus Christ and the Saints give them, will weaken the power that sin has over mankind. With that weakening, comes the weakening of something else, death. When the people are free of sin, living on total obedience to God, that is when death will be weakened to the point that it will become subdued.

      And then Satan will be released. Afterwards, in one shot, Death, Satan, the wicked, are all destroyed, along with the earth and Heaven, because the Lord will have already finished subduing death by the time that Satan is released. Once Death is subdued, it is written that Jesus will then hand back the earth over to His Father, showing that all authority and power has been subdued by the Son. Afterwards, Satan will have attempted yet again to take over the earth, not realizing that he is only sealing his, and the wicked's fates. This is where the wicked will say there is peace and safety, and suddenly the earth is completely and utterly destroyed, as written in 2 Peter 3. It will not be Jesus Christ destroying the world in a ball of fire. It will be His Father, destroying all things with fire. Paul acknowledges this, and calls this event, when Jesus hands the kingdom over to His Father, the end. It is the end because He is going to destroy it. Afterwards, when all life is extinguished from the earth, along with the earth itself, God will bring all of the dead to His throneroom, and the books are opened.

      Now you say that there is only one judgment.

      Matthew 25:31-32
      “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

      Revelation 20:11-13
      Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

      I noticed some things right away.

      1. Matthew 25 talks of the nations being judged; Revelation 20 tells of all of the dead being judged.
      2. Not a single reference to a book of dead is referenced in Matthew 25; not a single reference to the nations or the earth is referenced in Revelation 20
      3. There are no books here at this judgment in Matthew 25; there are plenty of books seen at this judgment, along with the Book of Life in Revelation 20.
      4. the people are being gathered from the nations in Matthew 25; people are being raised from the dead to be judged in Revelation 20.

      From these things alone, the evidence, meaning the words themselves in the context in which they were written, shows some very stark differences that makes one question the validity of the one judgment proclamation. But there is more.

      short version

      1. Angels gather these people to be judged from the nations of the world in Matthew 25; the world is gone in Revelation 20.
      2. The King decides who lives and who dies by how they treated the Saints in Matthew 25; the composite actions of the dead while they were alive is the criteria that God uses to judge in Revelation 20.
      3. The Lake of Fire is only referenced in Matthew 25; the Lake of Fire is defined in Revelation 20.
      4. The "sheep" go on to live in the King's Kingdom in Matthew 25; the righteous dead gain immortality in Revelation 20.
      5. Earth is still around in Matthew 25; the earth is destroyed by fire by the time Revelation 20 judgment happens.
      6. God the Son judges the nations at His return in Matthew 25; God the Father judges all of the dead in Revelation 20.
      7. The earth is not subdued during the Matthew 25 judgment; the Earth has already been given back to God the Father in Revelation 20, and thus was destroyed (The End).

      Matthew 25 explains what will happen to those who do not get eaten by birds, and also explains how the events listed in Zechariah 14:16-21 come into being. There are no loose ends in the Revelation 20 judgment, since all life has been destroyed from the earth, along with the earth itself.

      I know that those who wish to believe that there is only one judgment will continue to do so. I am not among them. I see plainly, two judgments that will happen. One by the Son, the other by His Father. One happens as He is about to rule over the earth, and the other happens after the earth is destroyed. Those who claim that there is only one judgment claim that the Matthew 25 judgment by the Son is a parable. I disagree with that sentiment, and find that those who believe this fail to read the verses contained in that judgment. This is why I do not use commentaries or the works of other people, since they can make mistakes, like the one made by Justin Martyr. Reading and understanding the words on the pages of the Bible is more than sufficient in understanding God's messages for all of us.

      Like I have stated before, the Matthew 25 judgment has been ignored for literally over 1900 years by theologians and people in positions of authority in the churches. Because it is not fashionable to think that there are more than one judgment, they label the judgment here in Matthew 25 in the same vein as Revelation 20; all because they see the word judge and figure that Matthew 25's judgment is the same as the judgment found in Revelation 20. I have just listed most of the differences between the judgments, and conclude by saying that those who have failed to even read this judgment cannot say that there is only one judgment, because scripture tells us another thing altogether.

      Obviously you never read my comments in #61 on Rev 19.

      I will add. Rev 19:17-21 confirms that there will be no left-overs after this final meal, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or) remaining ones (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

      The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Even if we only had this phrase “the flesh of all men” - it would be enough to rebut the Premil notion. However, The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” eliminates any ambiguity reference the scale of the destruction and removes any opportunity for anyone to tamper or distort the meaning of the text.
      Last edited by wpm; Feb 8 2014, 11:44 PM.
      "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

      http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

      WPM

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

        I see several glaring contradictions in your position. This may explain why you totally avoided addressing my response to you. From where I am looking, this is the only way Premil can survive. You must avoid the obvious literal reading and refuse to let Scripture locate the end, including Revelation. I must bring again to the readers mind.

        Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
        When I have a choice to believe what an early church father believes or believe what is written on the page, I am going to side with the words found in the scriptures themselves. No matter how you look at it, death is present in Isaiah 65:19-20.

        Isaiah 65:19-20 (For those following along).
        I will rejoice over Jerusalem
        and take delight in my people;
        the sound of weeping and of crying
        will be heard in it no more.
        20 “Never again will there be in it
        an infant who lives but a few days,
        or an old man who does not live out his years;

        the one who dies at a hundred
        will be thought a mere child;
        the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
        will be considered accursed
        .
        I feel I have showed you the correct literal rendering from the Hebrew, and have shown you how this is indeed supported by the Greek Septuagint (OT). You have refused to address the original. To sustain your paradigm you invent two NHNEs. Mark 1 (which you relate to some supposed future millennium kingdom after the Second Coming): is corrupt, sinful, full of death and rebellion which the mortal ungodly and the glorified saints inherit. Mark 2 (which you relate to the eternal state after your supposed future millennial kingdom/Satan's little season): is incorrupt, glorified, perfect, peaceful and righteous and inhabited exclusively by the glorified saints.

        You need to see what the NT says about its arrival. Scripture does not contradict itself. The one-and-only NHNE arrives at the Second Coming and sees the elimination of the bondage of corruption, not more of the same as you suggest.

        "Living out his years" is a definite indicator of Death being present in this New Heaven and Earth in Isaiah 65. Notice the stark difference between one of the last descriptions of Isaiah's NHNE and John's version.
        This is the OT prophet trying to describe in human terms to his OT audience how that men will live forever.

        Revelation 21:4
        ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

        There is no wiggle room for error in this verse. Death is NOT present at all, referenced or inferred, in Revelation 21:4. Death is gone, and the living out of a man's years, at that point, would become irrelevant. Isaiah's NHNE is not the same as John's NHNE. These two scriptures are where I hang my hat on. Isaiah 65:20 has death in it. Revelation 21:4 clearly does not.
        There is no death in either passage. Please read the original. You a duplicating what Scripture knows as only one.

        For me, Isaiah 65, especially because of verse 20, brings me to a point that you are not going to like. I believe that when Christ returns, He is going to rule this earth with a rod of iron. (Psalm 2). Another point that you and I agree with. You believe that He is going to rule all of this planet, while restoring the earth to its former glory. Your paradigm, however, has no room in it for mortal humans, since you believe that He will destroy humanity when He returns. I believe that when He returns, he will bring the earth back to its former glory. The difference between what I believe and what you believe is in fact Isaiah 65:20. Death is prese. Ynt in that description of God's NHNE in Isaiah, so this has to be that period of time in which all of the people that is left will learn to obey Him and quickly. As Psalm 2:7-9 tells us, He is not going to be nice this time around. If He is angered but a little, that nation will face dire consequences, a sentiment echoed in Zechariah 14:16-19. This would be a snapshot of a period in time when Jesus Christ is physically ruling this planet, with the aid of His Saints, from His throne that He will establish in Jerusalem, a time period that you say the scriptures are "silent" on.
        I feel you need that for your paradigm to fit. But it doesn't. You create 2 NHNEs and 2 "last days" periods. You invent 2 Last day's also, when we know there can only be one final day. This doesn't add up.

        1. The NHNE happens after the OHOE is destroyed. When Satan angers Jesus to the point where He hands the Earth back over to His Father, He will transport His Kingdom out of this heaven and earth and we will be protected while God the Father destroys this universe. I do not recognize a "millennium". Did you not read my last post? Jesus Kingdom never ends, so "the Millennium" contains the ultimate contradiction, Christ's Kingdom having an expiration point.
        I really don't understand what you are teaching. Please explain. How can you say you "do not recognize a 'millennium'"?

        So to answer your question, the end is in fact, the end. I believe that the End will happen after the period of regeneration is complete, and the people who are living in His Kingdom have learned how to quell their own selfish desires. With Jesus and the Saints as their rulers, they will learn quickly how to do what they were supposed to be doing now. When Satan is released from his prison, he will defy the Lord and will cause many who are on the earth then to rebel against their God. That is going to literally spell the end. Satan gathers the people to Jerusalem, Jesus takes the saints out of the earth, along with the obedient ones, and hands the planet over to His Father for destruction, which He will do with impunity, (Revelation 20:7-10).
        So is this a thousand your "regeneration"?

        2. There is no mentioning of a wiping of tears in Isaiah 65. That is found in Revelation 21. In Isaiah 65, we find that the sound of weeping will not be heard in "her" anymore. That "her" is Jerusalem. The city will be remade into something joyful, which is exactly what verses 18-19 tell us. There is no "wiping every tear" as there is in Revelation 21. That city will be a place of joy. That is what those two scriptures tell me. That joyful place, in Isaiah 65, is not the entire earth, but one city, Jerusalem. This is yet another point of contention.
        I think you are playing with words. Isaiah 65:17-21 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

        Manifestly, this means there will be no more crying! How can you not see that? No crying where? On the "new earth." Simple! Why complicate it?

        You introduce your first "new earth" at the Second Coming and then populate it with countless wicked mortals who hate Christ and who attempt a widespread coup at the end of 1,000 years on the new earth. If you have mortals you have tears. If you have the unsaved you have tears. This is talking about the population of the "new earth" here. Please re-read it.
        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

        WPM

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

          So from my understanding you have chosen exclusivity in your interpretation of these Bible passages. However the very act of excluding certain people completely contradicts the Christian value of undiminished giving. Also what happens to those who are not educated about God's will? Before we start excluding the ignorant we must first understand some fundamental errors that can occur in such circumstances.

          The first is to realize that "ignorance" by definition can be interpreted in numerous ways. For example some people are ignorant of various ideas and concepts because they have never been taught; others are ignorant because they have never taken the time to learn or are unwilling to take the time to learn. Realizing that ignorance is no excuse in God's eyes that leaves many in a tight situation. We are first to consider all those who are ignorant due to the fact that they have not been presented with the information required to adequately save oneself. Now one might quote St Paul in saying:

          In his address to the Athenians on Mars' Hill, he said that “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).
          Because Paul said “all men,” this admonition excludes no one and because he said “everywhere,” it doesn't matter where they might live even in the deepest part of Africa.

          OR

          "No man is without excuse because we can look inwardly and know that God exists."

          This leads us to another contradiction due to the fact that while it is certainly possible that man can find God in his own right, he cannot fully embrace Christian values and worship God appropriately and thus still ends up eternally damning himself. What I mean by this is what happens if a man, unknowing of Christianity, let alone any Christian values, (and certainly by this day and age there are unfortunately many who suffer in unknowing ignorance, or else there would not need be evangelists) is to search within himself and find God. Very well you might say, but may I remind you that is not enough, for the Christian faith requires all men to also believe in the chosen Son, Jesus Christ, to adhere to the Ten Commandments, to repent his previous sins, etc. How is a man uneducated in God supposed to know all of this.

          Furthermore this leads us to a very peculiar destination. If a man in such a case as described above were to suffer for all eternity, why would a benevolent God as ours create a man in such a position. For what cause has this man, who has attempted as best as he could to become one with God, doomed to eternal suffering? But if in the final hours on this temporal world he is saved by God due to his unfortunate circumstances... would it not be more gracious to leave all men uneducated, as to leave them with a higher chance to enter The City of God? Not to say that it is a burden to be Christian (by no means) but if both men were to fall to the temptation of evil the Christian man is left with no excuse of ignorance. Would it not be more befitting to leave our fellow man in search of God on their own, therefore saving them due to God's benevolence?. That is if God does excuse ignorance in this instance.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

            the previous poster makes several points that have long troubled myself. As a teen I questioned a youth group pastor about those with down syndrome and he told me that those people were in the hands of god.... I then asked about the nature of god being 3 - father, son and holy ghost... how can father also be son - I stated that such a relation reminded me of incest. I was but a curious teen asking questions and was told in disgust that I would not receive salvation because my questioning was ridiculous...

            But Why? Why is using the Rational mind that god gave me such a sin? Why is asking questions and trying to make sense of it all a sentence to suffering for eternity?

            His words - and yes the word of the other parishioners drove me away from the church. My Questions were not welcome.

            Apparently I am evil for asking questions. Apparently I am dangerous. Somehow a teenager lost is beyond redemption and is sentenced to hell for seeking clarification and reason.

            As an adult with inquisitive children of my own I am frankly scared to take my children to church for fear that Christians will damn them as they damned me for asking questions. For using the faculties that god gave us.

            The reason I pose such aggressive questions is because this thread is so aggressive in its attack on those that are not fully faithful. Am I not Fully faithful because I am still seeking answers? Are my children damned if they die tomorrow because I instilled in them the spirit of curiousity and inquisitiveness.

            This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

              Originally posted by daftchic View Post
              the previous poster makes several points that have long troubled myself. As a teen I questioned a youth group pastor about those with down syndrome and he told me that those people were in the hands of god.... I then asked about the nature of god being 3 - father, son and holy ghost... how can father also be son - I stated that such a relation reminded me of incest. I was but a curious teen asking questions and was told in disgust that I would not receive salvation because my questioning was ridiculous...

              But Why? Why is using the Rational mind that god gave me such a sin? Why is asking questions and trying to make sense of it all a sentence to suffering for eternity?

              His words - and yes the word of the other parishioners drove me away from the church. My Questions were not welcome.

              Apparently I am evil for asking questions. Apparently I am dangerous. Somehow a teenager lost is beyond redemption and is sentenced to hell for seeking clarification and reason.

              As an adult with inquisitive children of my own I am frankly scared to take my children to church for fear that Christians will damn them as they damned me for asking questions. For using the faculties that god gave us.

              The reason I pose such aggressive questions is because this thread is so aggressive in its attack on those that are not fully faithful. Am I not Fully faithful because I am still seeking answers? Are my children damned if they die tomorrow because I instilled in them the spirit of curiousity and inquisitiveness.

              This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.
              I apologize for the way you were treated. That was wrong. Salvation is through the new birth, not good works. We can never earn it, or merit it, we simply receive the free gift by faith. A person then becomes a new creature and enters into a spiritual relationship with the Lord. They change from loving sin to hating it.

              Don't let that terrible experience turn you from Christ and genuine believers.
              "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

              http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

              WPM

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                Originally posted by Aeonfluxcore View Post
                So from my understanding you have chosen exclusivity in your interpretation of these Bible passages. However the very act of excluding certain people completely contradicts the Christian value of undiminished giving. Also what happens to those who are not educated about God's will? Before we start excluding the ignorant we must first understand some fundamental errors that can occur in such circumstances.

                The first is to realize that "ignorance" by definition can be interpreted in numerous ways. For example some people are ignorant of various ideas and concepts because they have never been taught; others are ignorant because they have never taken the time to learn or are unwilling to take the time to learn. Realizing that ignorance is no excuse in God's eyes that leaves many in a tight situation. We are first to consider all those who are ignorant due to the fact that they have not been presented with the information required to adequately save oneself. Now one might quote St Paul in saying:

                In his address to the Athenians on Mars' Hill, he said that “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).
                Because Paul said “all men,” this admonition excludes no one and because he said “everywhere,” it doesn't matter where they might live even in the deepest part of Africa.

                OR

                "No man is without excuse because we can look inwardly and know that God exists."

                This leads us to another contradiction due to the fact that while it is certainly possible that man can find God in his own right, he cannot fully embrace Christian values and worship God appropriately and thus still ends up eternally damning himself. What I mean by this is what happens if a man, unknowing of Christianity, let alone any Christian values, (and certainly by this day and age there are unfortunately many who suffer in unknowing ignorance, or else there would not need be evangelists) is to search within himself and find God. Very well you might say, but may I remind you that is not enough, for the Christian faith requires all men to also believe in the chosen Son, Jesus Christ, to adhere to the Ten Commandments, to repent his previous sins, etc. How is a man uneducated in God supposed to know all of this.

                Furthermore this leads us to a very peculiar destination. If a man in such a case as described above were to suffer for all eternity, why would a benevolent God as ours create a man in such a position. For what cause has this man, who has attempted as best as he could to become one with God, doomed to eternal suffering? But if in the final hours on this temporal world he is saved by God due to his unfortunate circumstances... would it not be more gracious to leave all men uneducated, as to leave them with a higher chance to enter The City of God? Not to say that it is a burden to be Christian (by no means) but if both men were to fall to the temptation of evil the Christian man is left with no excuse of ignorance. Would it not be more befitting to leave our fellow man in search of God on their own, therefore saving them due to God's benevolence?. That is if God does excuse ignorance in this instance.
                One is either saved or lost. God knows His sheep and they know His voice. We wander into the mind of God in your enquiry and some of your points only He can answer. I do not feel qualified to even answer them. I just know that He will do right when He appears. That does not dilute the fact there are 2 camps. There was in Noah's day and Sodom, there will be at the end. The same questions could be asked about their days also.
                "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                WPM

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                  Originally posted by daftchic View Post
                  the previous poster makes several points that have long troubled myself. As a teen I questioned a youth group pastor about those with down syndrome and he told me that those people were in the hands of god.... I then asked about the nature of god being 3 - father, son and holy ghost... how can father also be son - I stated that such a relation reminded me of incest. I was but a curious teen asking questions and was told in disgust that I would not receive salvation because my questioning was ridiculous...

                  But Why? Why is using the Rational mind that god gave me such a sin? Why is asking questions and trying to make sense of it all a sentence to suffering for eternity?

                  His words - and yes the word of the other parishioners drove me away from the church. My Questions were not welcome.

                  Apparently I am evil for asking questions. Apparently I am dangerous. Somehow a teenager lost is beyond redemption and is sentenced to hell for seeking clarification and reason.

                  As an adult with inquisitive children of my own I am frankly scared to take my children to church for fear that Christians will damn them as they damned me for asking questions. For using the faculties that god gave us.

                  The reason I pose such aggressive questions is because this thread is so aggressive in its attack on those that are not fully faithful. Am I not Fully faithful because I am still seeking answers? Are my children damned if they die tomorrow because I instilled in them the spirit of curiousity and inquisitiveness.

                  This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.
                  I am greatly saddened by your post and your experience with so called ministers of Christ. Dont believe a word of it.
                  God knows those who are his...and he gave his life as a man while we were yet sinners and didnt know any better.
                  God really does love you Daftchic. To ask questions means to seek, and this is what God wants of you.
                  You will find , in your own sincerity.....its Gods will.
                  And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                    Originally posted by daftchic View Post
                    This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.
                    Not at all dear one. thats not the intent of the OP.
                    Whether your amill , bmill , cmill is not the Lords concern. We are to seek him out individually with fear and trembling and in all sincerity. God already has you in the palm of his hand. ....with a heart of repentance he will see you through, learn to rest in that.
                    God bless you.
                    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                      The Good news is not about information or education, or the illiterate and simple would be excluded from the promise, it is about accepting or rejecting the light of God and Jesus's words to Nicodemus sum it up really nice.
                      Hey Paul...this means even an Irishman can enter heaven

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                        Originally posted by Karaite View Post
                        The Good news is not about information or education, or the illiterate and simple would be excluded from the promise, it is about accepting or rejecting the light of God and Jesus's words to Nicodemus sum it up really nice.
                        Hey Paul...this means even an Irishman can enter heaven
                        Praise the Lord. LOL. The one thing I know is: we don't deserve it - it is a gift.
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                          Originally posted by wpm View Post
                          Christ was asked a hypothetical question about a woman who had 7 husbands, all of which died along with herself. Luke 20:33 records: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

                          Christ tells us in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy(or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

                          When it says that those that are worthy to inherit the age to come will not experience death in that age we know that we are looking at the eternal state. There is no other age that is exempt from the blight of death. This indeed will be a glorious day. There can be no doubt that we are looking at the introduction of the new heavens and the new earth.

                          Attaining unto the age to come is not automatic; it is a reward. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared. He is Coming alone for His people. This is clearly confirmed in this text. The age to come is an age exclusively reserved for “the children of God.” Whilst the wicked are not the main focus of this particular text we can still discern that they are excluded from the age to come. They are judged, banished from His presence and damned to eternal punishment when He appears. There are therefore two peoples at Christ’s appearing, one that is rewarded and one that is reprobated.

                          The phrase accounted worthy is translated from the Greek word kataxioō and means exactly how it is interpreted. It means to deem entirely deserving. It is found 4 times in the New Testament and carries that consistent sense.

                          This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. Firstly this age is a reward for the redeemed. The Premil scheme falls apart at this point as it saturates the new earth with unregenerate mortal rebels. In fact, they reward those who attack Jerusalem just prior to the Second Coming and usher them into the semi-corrupt semi-glorious millennial age.

                          What is more: those who experience the age to come are not expressly mortals (they don’t die). This obviously exclusively refers to the perfected glorified saints. Those that are “accounted worthy” in Scripture are the elect. Thus, those that obtain that age which is to come are those that have been glorified at the resurrection. They enter the eternal age and don’t die any more – "for they are equal unto the angels.”

                          Luke uses this same word in the next chapter also in regard to the Second Coming of the Lord. He is quoting our Lord’s admonition about His appearing. Christ warns, “take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (the Second Coming) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36).

                          Those who are accounted worthy to escape the impending wrath of God in this passage are the exact same people who Jesus identifies in Luke 20 who are described as the “children of God” who will be glorified at His Coming and will therefore not “die any more” – because “they are equal unto the angels.”

                          These two statements by our Lord in these two passages closely correlate. They impress the necessity of being prepared and qualified to (1) escape the wrath of God that will be poured upon sinful civilisation and (2) inherit the new eternal state that is purged of all corruption when Jesus comes. Scripture has much to say about this great climactic event that will catch the ungodly “unawares” but will find the believer watching. We should not forget it is only a certain calibre of human being that will experience both of these blessings (the rescue and the inheritance). It is the redeemed of God.

                          The dual aspect of Christ’s return is also found in II Thessalonians 1:4-10, where we find a 3rd New Testament reference to the same Greek word kataxioō. It similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy (or kataxioō) of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

                          When Jesus appears the righteous and the wicked will be eternally separated. The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God the wicked will be destroyed “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” This reading shows us that men must warrant the kingdom of God; it is not given to everyone. Other clear Scripture tells us that there are but few that will experience the eternal kingdom – only those that are “counted worthy.” It is a meritorious thing, just like the catching away of the saints to escape the wrath of God and the reward of the age to come.

                          This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.

                          The only other time the Greek word in view is used is in Acts 5:41 where the disciples rejoiced in their persecution and the fact “they were counted worthy (or kataxioō) to suffer shame for his name.”

                          All the usages of this word therefore relate to the saints of God, and relate to an impending rewarded condition.



                          If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

                          Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
                          35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
                          36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


                          Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


                          But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

                          but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

                          The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


                          Neither can they die any more

                          on such the second death hath no power

                          No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
                          Last edited by divaD; Feb 19 2014, 10:04 PM. Reason: Noticed a typo

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                            Originally posted by divaD View Post
                            If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resussection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

                            Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
                            35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
                            36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


                            Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


                            But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

                            but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

                            The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


                            Neither can they die any more

                            on such the second death hath no power

                            No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
                            In "that world" there is no death, no marriage, they are equal to the angels, children of God, children of the resurrection. The Sadducees, who deny the resurrection failed to realize this because they ask whose wife will she be in the resurrection, implying marriage is still possible. Christ says marriage takes place in "this world", not after resurrection. It seems there is no marriage after the resurrection because angels are spirit beings, and do not marry. So "that world" cannot be the NHNE because man will be clothed in resurrected bodies of flesh and bone to inhabit eternity on the new earth.

                            We enter "that world" when we are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. And when we die in Christ, we go to "that world" that will be on the new earth, but is at the present time in heaven. That's why there is neither death, or marriage because we are living and reigning with Christ in heaven (that world) while time (1000 yrs) exist, and when He comes again we will live with Him in "that world" forever. So while in that world in heaven there is no marriage for we are as the angels in heaven, but in that world on the new earth ???? At any rate there is no more death to all who have part in the first resurrection in Christ.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                              Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                              In "that world" there is no death, no marriage, they are equal to the angels, children of God, children of the resurrection. The Sadducees, who deny the resurrection failed to realize this because they ask whose wife will she be in the resurrection, implying marriage is still possible. Christ says marriage takes place in "this world", not after resurrection. It seems there is no marriage after the resurrection because angels are spirit beings, and do not marry. So "that world" cannot be the NHNE because man will be clothed in resurrected bodies of flesh and bone to inhabit eternity on the new earth.

                              We enter "that world" when we are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. And when we die in Christ, we go to "that world" that will be on the new earth, but is at the present time in heaven. That's why there is neither death, or marriage because we are living and reigning with Christ in heaven (that world) while time (1000 yrs) exist, and when He comes again we will live with Him in "that world" forever. So while in that world in heaven there is no marriage for we are as the angels in heaven, but in that world on the new earth ???? At any rate there is no more death to all who have part in the first resurrection in Christ.
                              Here is the passage in the OP.

                              Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
                              34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
                              35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
                              36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


                              Is this or is this not the bodily resurrection when Christ returns?

                              Does or does not this passage give us the timing of when one can die no more? Is it in this age when no one can die no more, or is it meaning in the next age?

                              Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


                              According to this passage, once someone has part in the first resurrection, can they die any more or not? And if the answer is no, then the first resurrection has to be meaning the same resurrection mentioned in Luke 20, since Luke 20 gives us the timing of when this becomes a reality and one can no longer physically die the way we still do in this age, regardless whether we're professed Christians or not, because we still physically die just like anyone else. This won't be true of those that obtain the first resurrection in the next age. That would be conclusions..

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

                                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                                If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resussection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

                                Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
                                35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
                                36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


                                Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


                                But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

                                but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

                                The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


                                Neither can they die any more

                                on such the second death hath no power

                                No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
                                The first resurrection

                                When you keep ignoring the fact that Christ’s resurrection was the “first resurrection” it is very difficult to have a reasonable, fruitful and objective conversation. What is more, you have to ignore historic fact. I’ve repeatedly showed you that His resurrection was the "first" or protos or the foremost in time, place, order and importance. Different New Testament Scriptures prove this. You totally undermine its importance from every angle with your paradigm. You make Scripture conflict with Scripture.

                                Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

                                Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

                                The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

                                Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

                                Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

                                Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

                                Those worthy

                                Luke 20 is all about being "worthy" to inherit the age to come. This is what you are not seeing or addressing. It actually identifies those who are worthy to inherit the age to come and stipulates that they will not die. The reason for this is obviously they have been glorified at the resurrection. In your paradigm you have mortals, death and sin. It just doesn't seem to fit. This text negates the Premil view on Rev 20.

                                The age to come is a reward. It is the eternal state. It is the new perfect glorified eternal earth. It is not some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age as you imagine.
                                "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                                http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                                WPM

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