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  • Marcus O'Reillius
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Forgot to mention this in my other post, but it's not so much that I disagree with you here, it's just that we can't get on the same page. I too see the first resurrection being Christ's, but I simply see it as being the resurrection of the just, as opposed to the resurrection of damnation, which are clearly two different types of resurrections.
    There are two resurrections from the grave to the realm of Heaven. They are mentioned five times in the Bible starting in Daniel 12. They are in the Gospel message from Jesus three times, and one of them is in the eschatological Olivet Discourse. The last is in Revelation, which reveals as its nature.

    There is another resurrection to an earthly life in Ezekiel. It is buttressed by another prophecy in Ezekiel whereby the Lord sets aside people who have lived before, who live again, to serve Him on the earth during the Sabbath Millennial of the Lord's Reign.

    We know from Jesus' explanation to John in Revelation of what is to come, that a thousand years separates the two Resurrections from the grave to Heaven.

    That time in-between is very important and it is part of God's Plan.

    Nothing in Luke chapter 20, where Jesus explains the difference between this "age" - which is not specifically defined by our Lord - and the next invalidates all the prophecy the Lord has also given us concerning the Millennium.

    Speaking to the Church, Jesus in Luke 20, which itself is a compilation of His Words for the Greeks, contrasts our time on earth during this Church Age with the unbroken time we will have with the Lord after the first Resurrection we will have in immortal and imperishable bodies, whether it is during the Millennial or after with the New Heavens and New Earth. There is no distinction in our roles between those two settings: the rules are the same. We will not marry each other because we collectively are Christ's Bride. We will not die because we are given one body and that is immortal. Nothing there precludes or invalidates the Millennial period Jesus said awaits us.

    To conclude, you're right Diva. There are different types of Resurrections and you can split them two ways.

    Resurrections can be to Heaven or the earth.
    Resurrections to Heaven can be either for only the Living (as Jesus explains in Luke 20:37-38) with the first Resurrection, or for both Living and Dead as with the second Resurrection after the Millennium.

    Either way you look at it, there are two different types of resurrections.

    Leave a comment:


  • wpm
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    I can agree with that, but it is only a reward for those that obtain eternal life. And one of those rewards would be reigning with Christ a thousand years over the surviving mortals. But just because it is the eternal state for some, that doesn't mean it's the eternal state for all, since I'm pretty convinced there will be surviving mortals living on the planet at the time. mortals and the eternal state..that does not compute. But what does compute is mortals and immortals on the planet at the same time. Jesus clearly proved that reality when He rose from the dead and was physically among mortal men until He ascended.
    What you are missing is that actually entering the age to come is the reward. It is an age of no dying or no marrying. Basically we are looking at the eternal state. This proves Amil and rebukes Premil.

    Leave a comment:


  • wpm
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    While I do see your point, why not let Revelation show us why it's called the first resurrection?

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    Clearly when the dead live again, this is not the first resurrection. The first resurrection then has to proceed when the dead lived again, thus why it's called the first resurrection.
    Whatever it is, participation in it qualifies humans victory over eternal punishment (the second death). This is when we identify with Christ's victorious resurrection upon salvation. Revelation 20:6 simply says, Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

    When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

    This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

    When one gives their life to Christ they immediately become an overcomer. A Christian is an overcomer; they overcome the devil, the world and their flesh. This passage is simply talking about salvation. When someone gets saved they immediately delivered from the fear, penalty, and the eternal consequences of everlasting punishment.

    These two passages mirror each other. The reason being they are speaking about the same reality in the same age, spiritual victory in this current age. Like Revelation 20:6, this is speaking about a current spiritual state (salvation) that allows the Christian to escape eternal punishment.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    The first resurrection

    When you keep ignoring the fact that Christ’s resurrection was the “first resurrection” it is very difficult to have a reasonable, fruitful and objective conversation. What is more, you have to ignore historic fact. I’ve repeatedly showed you that His resurrection was the "first" or protos or the foremost in time, place, order and importance. Different New Testament Scriptures prove this. You totally undermine its importance from every angle with your paradigm. You make Scripture conflict with Scripture.

    Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

    Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

    The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

    Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

    Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

    Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    Those worthy

    Luke 20 is all about being "worthy" to inherit the age to come. This is what you are not seeing or addressing. It actually identifies those who are worthy to inherit the age to come and stipulates that they will not die. The reason for this is obviously they have been glorified at the resurrection. In your paradigm you have mortals, death and sin. It just doesn't seem to fit. This text negates the Premil view on Rev 20.

    The age to come is a reward. It is the eternal state. It is the new perfect glorified eternal earth. It is not some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age as you imagine.
    Forgot to mention this in my other post, but it's not so much that I disagree with you here, it's just that we can't get on the same page. I too see the first resurrection being Christ's, but I simply see it as being the resurrection of the just, as opposed to the resurrection of damnation, which are clearly two different types of resurrections.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    The first resurrection

    When you keep ignoring the fact that Christ’s resurrection was the “first resurrection” it is very difficult to have a reasonable, fruitful and objective conversation. What is more, you have to ignore historic fact. I’ve repeatedly showed you that His resurrection was the "first" or protos or the foremost in time, place, order and importance. Different New Testament Scriptures prove this. You totally undermine its importance from every angle with your paradigm. You make Scripture conflict with Scripture.

    Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

    Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

    The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

    Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

    Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

    Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    Those worthy

    Luke 20 is all about being "worthy" to inherit the age to come. This is what you are not seeing or addressing. It actually identifies those who are worthy to inherit the age to come and stipulates that they will not die. The reason for this is obviously they have been glorified at the resurrection. In your paradigm you have mortals, death and sin. It just doesn't seem to fit. This text negates the Premil view on Rev 20.

    The age to come is a reward. It is the eternal state. It is the new perfect glorified eternal earth. It is not some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age as you imagine.
    While I do see your point, why not let Revelation show us why it's called the first resurrection?

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    Clearly when the dead live again, this is not the first resurrection. The first resurrection then has to proceed when the dead lived again, thus why it's called the first resurrection.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    The age to come is a reward. It is the eternal state.
    I can agree with that, but it is only a reward for those that obtain eternal life. And one of those rewards would be reigning with Christ a thousand years over the surviving mortals. But just because it is the eternal state for some, that doesn't mean it's the eternal state for all, since I'm pretty convinced there will be surviving mortals living on the planet at the time. mortals and the eternal state..that does not compute. But what does compute is mortals and immortals on the planet at the same time. Jesus clearly proved that reality when He rose from the dead and was physically among mortal men until He ascended.

    Leave a comment:


  • wpm
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resussection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

    Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

    The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


    Neither can they die any more

    on such the second death hath no power

    No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
    The first resurrection

    When you keep ignoring the fact that Christ’s resurrection was the “first resurrection” it is very difficult to have a reasonable, fruitful and objective conversation. What is more, you have to ignore historic fact. I’ve repeatedly showed you that His resurrection was the "first" or protos or the foremost in time, place, order and importance. Different New Testament Scriptures prove this. You totally undermine its importance from every angle with your paradigm. You make Scripture conflict with Scripture.

    Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

    Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

    The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

    Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

    Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

    Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    Those worthy

    Luke 20 is all about being "worthy" to inherit the age to come. This is what you are not seeing or addressing. It actually identifies those who are worthy to inherit the age to come and stipulates that they will not die. The reason for this is obviously they have been glorified at the resurrection. In your paradigm you have mortals, death and sin. It just doesn't seem to fit. This text negates the Premil view on Rev 20.

    The age to come is a reward. It is the eternal state. It is the new perfect glorified eternal earth. It is not some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age as you imagine.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
    In "that world" there is no death, no marriage, they are equal to the angels, children of God, children of the resurrection. The Sadducees, who deny the resurrection failed to realize this because they ask whose wife will she be in the resurrection, implying marriage is still possible. Christ says marriage takes place in "this world", not after resurrection. It seems there is no marriage after the resurrection because angels are spirit beings, and do not marry. So "that world" cannot be the NHNE because man will be clothed in resurrected bodies of flesh and bone to inhabit eternity on the new earth.

    We enter "that world" when we are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. And when we die in Christ, we go to "that world" that will be on the new earth, but is at the present time in heaven. That's why there is neither death, or marriage because we are living and reigning with Christ in heaven (that world) while time (1000 yrs) exist, and when He comes again we will live with Him in "that world" forever. So while in that world in heaven there is no marriage for we are as the angels in heaven, but in that world on the new earth ???? At any rate there is no more death to all who have part in the first resurrection in Christ.
    Here is the passage in the OP.

    Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    Is this or is this not the bodily resurrection when Christ returns?

    Does or does not this passage give us the timing of when one can die no more? Is it in this age when no one can die no more, or is it meaning in the next age?

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    According to this passage, once someone has part in the first resurrection, can they die any more or not? And if the answer is no, then the first resurrection has to be meaning the same resurrection mentioned in Luke 20, since Luke 20 gives us the timing of when this becomes a reality and one can no longer physically die the way we still do in this age, regardless whether we're professed Christians or not, because we still physically die just like anyone else. This won't be true of those that obtain the first resurrection in the next age. That would be conclusions..

    Leave a comment:


  • RogerW
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resussection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

    Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

    The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


    Neither can they die any more

    on such the second death hath no power

    No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
    In "that world" there is no death, no marriage, they are equal to the angels, children of God, children of the resurrection. The Sadducees, who deny the resurrection failed to realize this because they ask whose wife will she be in the resurrection, implying marriage is still possible. Christ says marriage takes place in "this world", not after resurrection. It seems there is no marriage after the resurrection because angels are spirit beings, and do not marry. So "that world" cannot be the NHNE because man will be clothed in resurrected bodies of flesh and bone to inhabit eternity on the new earth.

    We enter "that world" when we are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. And when we die in Christ, we go to "that world" that will be on the new earth, but is at the present time in heaven. That's why there is neither death, or marriage because we are living and reigning with Christ in heaven (that world) while time (1000 yrs) exist, and when He comes again we will live with Him in "that world" forever. So while in that world in heaven there is no marriage for we are as the angels in heaven, but in that world on the new earth ???? At any rate there is no more death to all who have part in the first resurrection in Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    Christ was asked a hypothetical question about a woman who had 7 husbands, all of which died along with herself. Luke 20:33 records: “in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

    Christ tells us in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy(or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

    When it says that those that are worthy to inherit the age to come will not experience death in that age we know that we are looking at the eternal state. There is no other age that is exempt from the blight of death. This indeed will be a glorious day. There can be no doubt that we are looking at the introduction of the new heavens and the new earth.

    Attaining unto the age to come is not automatic; it is a reward. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus is only Coming for those that are ready, looking and prepared. He is Coming alone for His people. This is clearly confirmed in this text. The age to come is an age exclusively reserved for “the children of God.” Whilst the wicked are not the main focus of this particular text we can still discern that they are excluded from the age to come. They are judged, banished from His presence and damned to eternal punishment when He appears. There are therefore two peoples at Christ’s appearing, one that is rewarded and one that is reprobated.

    The phrase accounted worthy is translated from the Greek word kataxioō and means exactly how it is interpreted. It means to deem entirely deserving. It is found 4 times in the New Testament and carries that consistent sense.

    This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. Firstly this age is a reward for the redeemed. The Premil scheme falls apart at this point as it saturates the new earth with unregenerate mortal rebels. In fact, they reward those who attack Jerusalem just prior to the Second Coming and usher them into the semi-corrupt semi-glorious millennial age.

    What is more: those who experience the age to come are not expressly mortals (they don’t die). This obviously exclusively refers to the perfected glorified saints. Those that are “accounted worthy” in Scripture are the elect. Thus, those that obtain that age which is to come are those that have been glorified at the resurrection. They enter the eternal age and don’t die any more – "for they are equal unto the angels.”

    Luke uses this same word in the next chapter also in regard to the Second Coming of the Lord. He is quoting our Lord’s admonition about His appearing. Christ warns, “take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (the Second Coming) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34-36).

    Those who are accounted worthy to escape the impending wrath of God in this passage are the exact same people who Jesus identifies in Luke 20 who are described as the “children of God” who will be glorified at His Coming and will therefore not “die any more” – because “they are equal unto the angels.”

    These two statements by our Lord in these two passages closely correlate. They impress the necessity of being prepared and qualified to (1) escape the wrath of God that will be poured upon sinful civilisation and (2) inherit the new eternal state that is purged of all corruption when Jesus comes. Scripture has much to say about this great climactic event that will catch the ungodly “unawares” but will find the believer watching. We should not forget it is only a certain calibre of human being that will experience both of these blessings (the rescue and the inheritance). It is the redeemed of God.

    The dual aspect of Christ’s return is also found in II Thessalonians 1:4-10, where we find a 3rd New Testament reference to the same Greek word kataxioō. It similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy (or kataxioō) of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

    When Jesus appears the righteous and the wicked will be eternally separated. The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God the wicked will be destroyed “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” This reading shows us that men must warrant the kingdom of God; it is not given to everyone. Other clear Scripture tells us that there are but few that will experience the eternal kingdom – only those that are “counted worthy.” It is a meritorious thing, just like the catching away of the saints to escape the wrath of God and the reward of the age to come.

    This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.

    The only other time the Greek word in view is used is in Acts 5:41 where the disciples rejoiced in their persecution and the fact “they were counted worthy (or kataxioō) to suffer shame for his name.”

    All the usages of this word therefore relate to the saints of God, and relate to an impending rewarded condition.



    If anything, your Luke 20 passage seems to be in accordance with the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20. And if so, that looks like a bit of a problem for you since no doubt about it, Luke 20:34-36 is referring to the bodily resurrection when Christ returns, and that you disagree the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is this same bodily resurrection. Let's compare the two.

    Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ

    The first question I would ask, do priests typically marry, or given in marriage?


    Neither can they die any more

    on such the second death hath no power

    No wonder they can't die anymore, because on such the second death hath no power. But if the first resurrection is meaning now..spiritually..then it makes no sense for no one to ever die anymore according to Luke 20:36, if this is already reality now, as in the first resurrection is not a future resurrection, but is a reality now.
    Last edited by divaD; Feb 19 2014, 10:04 PM. Reason: Noticed a typo

    Leave a comment:


  • wpm
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by Karaite View Post
    The Good news is not about information or education, or the illiterate and simple would be excluded from the promise, it is about accepting or rejecting the light of God and Jesus's words to Nicodemus sum it up really nice.
    Hey Paul...this means even an Irishman can enter heaven
    Praise the Lord. LOL. The one thing I know is: we don't deserve it - it is a gift.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balabusha
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    The Good news is not about information or education, or the illiterate and simple would be excluded from the promise, it is about accepting or rejecting the light of God and Jesus's words to Nicodemus sum it up really nice.
    Hey Paul...this means even an Irishman can enter heaven

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffweeder
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by daftchic View Post
    This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.
    Not at all dear one. thats not the intent of the OP.
    Whether your amill , bmill , cmill is not the Lords concern. We are to seek him out individually with fear and trembling and in all sincerity. God already has you in the palm of his hand. ....with a heart of repentance he will see you through, learn to rest in that.
    God bless you.

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffweeder
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by daftchic View Post
    the previous poster makes several points that have long troubled myself. As a teen I questioned a youth group pastor about those with down syndrome and he told me that those people were in the hands of god.... I then asked about the nature of god being 3 - father, son and holy ghost... how can father also be son - I stated that such a relation reminded me of incest. I was but a curious teen asking questions and was told in disgust that I would not receive salvation because my questioning was ridiculous...

    But Why? Why is using the Rational mind that god gave me such a sin? Why is asking questions and trying to make sense of it all a sentence to suffering for eternity?

    His words - and yes the word of the other parishioners drove me away from the church. My Questions were not welcome.

    Apparently I am evil for asking questions. Apparently I am dangerous. Somehow a teenager lost is beyond redemption and is sentenced to hell for seeking clarification and reason.

    As an adult with inquisitive children of my own I am frankly scared to take my children to church for fear that Christians will damn them as they damned me for asking questions. For using the faculties that god gave us.

    The reason I pose such aggressive questions is because this thread is so aggressive in its attack on those that are not fully faithful. Am I not Fully faithful because I am still seeking answers? Are my children damned if they die tomorrow because I instilled in them the spirit of curiousity and inquisitiveness.

    This thread certainly leads me to believe that if I die with unanswered questions My children and I will have a very unfortunate fate.
    I am greatly saddened by your post and your experience with so called ministers of Christ. Dont believe a word of it.
    God knows those who are his...and he gave his life as a man while we were yet sinners and didnt know any better.
    God really does love you Daftchic. To ask questions means to seek, and this is what God wants of you.
    You will find , in your own sincerity.....its Gods will.

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  • wpm
    replied
    Re: Only the elect are "worthy" to obtain the "age to come."

    Originally posted by Aeonfluxcore View Post
    So from my understanding you have chosen exclusivity in your interpretation of these Bible passages. However the very act of excluding certain people completely contradicts the Christian value of undiminished giving. Also what happens to those who are not educated about God's will? Before we start excluding the ignorant we must first understand some fundamental errors that can occur in such circumstances.

    The first is to realize that "ignorance" by definition can be interpreted in numerous ways. For example some people are ignorant of various ideas and concepts because they have never been taught; others are ignorant because they have never taken the time to learn or are unwilling to take the time to learn. Realizing that ignorance is no excuse in God's eyes that leaves many in a tight situation. We are first to consider all those who are ignorant due to the fact that they have not been presented with the information required to adequately save oneself. Now one might quote St Paul in saying:

    In his address to the Athenians on Mars' Hill, he said that “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).
    Because Paul said “all men,” this admonition excludes no one and because he said “everywhere,” it doesn't matter where they might live even in the deepest part of Africa.

    OR

    "No man is without excuse because we can look inwardly and know that God exists."

    This leads us to another contradiction due to the fact that while it is certainly possible that man can find God in his own right, he cannot fully embrace Christian values and worship God appropriately and thus still ends up eternally damning himself. What I mean by this is what happens if a man, unknowing of Christianity, let alone any Christian values, (and certainly by this day and age there are unfortunately many who suffer in unknowing ignorance, or else there would not need be evangelists) is to search within himself and find God. Very well you might say, but may I remind you that is not enough, for the Christian faith requires all men to also believe in the chosen Son, Jesus Christ, to adhere to the Ten Commandments, to repent his previous sins, etc. How is a man uneducated in God supposed to know all of this.

    Furthermore this leads us to a very peculiar destination. If a man in such a case as described above were to suffer for all eternity, why would a benevolent God as ours create a man in such a position. For what cause has this man, who has attempted as best as he could to become one with God, doomed to eternal suffering? But if in the final hours on this temporal world he is saved by God due to his unfortunate circumstances... would it not be more gracious to leave all men uneducated, as to leave them with a higher chance to enter The City of God? Not to say that it is a burden to be Christian (by no means) but if both men were to fall to the temptation of evil the Christian man is left with no excuse of ignorance. Would it not be more befitting to leave our fellow man in search of God on their own, therefore saving them due to God's benevolence?. That is if God does excuse ignorance in this instance.
    One is either saved or lost. God knows His sheep and they know His voice. We wander into the mind of God in your enquiry and some of your points only He can answer. I do not feel qualified to even answer them. I just know that He will do right when He appears. That does not dilute the fact there are 2 camps. There was in Noah's day and Sodom, there will be at the end. The same questions could be asked about their days also.

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