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  • Discussion Covenants abolished?

    I have read many times in here that "the Old Covenant has been abolished", as though there are scriptures showing how Jesus has done away with the Old Covenant.

    I have a question for everyone, what does that mean, and when did this happen?

    More importantly, did Jesus Christ abolish a covenant that God made before He walked this earth?


    Please show actual scripture in the explanations, because I am sick of allusions to doctrines that have no biblical foundation being flaunted around like it is truth, unchallenged for the most part.

  • #2
    Re: Covenants abolished?

    Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
    I have read many times in here that "the Old Covenant has been abolished", as though there are scriptures showing how Jesus has done away with the Old Covenant.

    I have a question for everyone, what does that mean, and when did this happen?

    More importantly, did Jesus Christ abolish a covenant that God made before He walked this earth?


    Please show actual scripture in the explanations, because I am sick of allusions to doctrines that have no biblical foundation being flaunted around like it is truth, unchallenged for the most part.
    I don't know if there are specific scriptures defining the new covenant abolishing the old covenant; but if one acknowledges that the old covenant was to abide by the ten commandments, on which the bible states no one was able to comply with the letter of the law; then the new covenant through Jesus Christ which completes the law, but without abiding by the letter would be one which abolishes the first covenant (following the letter of the law), by instead abiding to the more efficient second covenant (loving God and neighbor).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Covenants abolished?

      Here is my point, for those who are confused as to the topic of this thread. Jesus did not abolish any covenant.

      In order to understand what I mean, we have to dive into scripture and figure out what exactly the covenant is that others are saying that Jesus Christ abolished. We have to see when, to whom, and why that covenant existed in the first place, and see if Jesus Christ actually done away with that covenant. I would say, leave your "Millennium camp" theology behind, but I know how impossible it is in this forum, so I will not waste my time in asking for that. Honest discussions without attempts to sway others into your camp would be preferred.

      First point. The "Old Covenant" that many refer to is God's covenant with Israel. This is the covenant that is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, whereas it is a land and a people covenant.

      Genesis 17:4-12
      “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

      9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.


      That is the covenant that God originally made to Abraham. Notice that the covenant is a land covenant that God has promised to give to Abraham's descendants. The only requirement that Abraham had to do in order for this covenant to last is that he and all of his children after him be circumcised. That is it. In order for God to be their God, they must be circumcised, according to this promise.

      This covenant is not for everyone, but only for the descendants of Abraham. That would make this covenant one that is limited in scope and purpose. It is limited to children of Abraham, and its purpose is to give the descendants of Abraham a place to call home, with Him being their God. Notice that their actions that are mentioned here are only limited to circumcision? But more importantly, notice that the Gentiles are NOT included in this covenant? They are inferred, but not mentioned. This would mean that for the Gentile, this covenant means nothing.

      Now fast forward to the accounts in Exodus. Before there was another covenant made, something spectacular happened on Mt Sinai. God revealed His Laws for all mankind there, before Israel was given a covenant. These Laws, as everyone would agree, (I hope), are meant for everyone on the earth, and not just the people Israel. These Laws had no promises except for one, the honoring of one's mother and father. Nothing else is promised with these Laws. Are these the Laws that Jesus abolished?

      After Mt Sinai, we see that God has created a theocracy with Israel, giving them rules in which they, the ethnic Israelites, are to follow. These include the animal sacrifices and dietary Laws, but does not promise anything other than success in the land that God has given them. Take a look at Deuteronomy 28-30. Show me one verse that shows that the people are promised Salvation for following the Laws of the land that God has given to the people of Israel. What I read is that they will be prosperous if they obey the laws, and sent into exile, cursed for disobedience. If this is the Laws that God abolished through Jesus Christ, then why were the Jews sent away from Israel for 1877 years, as God honored what He had Moses write in Deuteronomy 29.

      Deuteronomy 29:18-25
      Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

      19 When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.

      22 Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the Lord has afflicted it. 23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?”

      25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt.


      Is this the Law that God has allegedly done away with? To the Gentile, this covenant does not mean anything to them, since in order to qualify to be under this covenant, one has to be circumcised, just as God has said to Abraham when He proclaimed that He is making a covenant with him. So for the uncircumcised, this whole covenant means nothing. As you can read, this covenant cannot take an effect for a Gentile unless they circumcise himself.


      This post is getting too long, so to be continued.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Covenants abolished?

        Originally posted by luigi View Post
        I don't know if there are specific scriptures defining the new covenant abolishing the old covenant; but if one acknowledges that the old covenant was to abide by the ten commandments, on which the bible states no one was able to comply with the letter of the law; then the new covenant through Jesus Christ which completes the law, but without abiding by the letter would be one which abolishes the first covenant (following the letter of the law), by instead abiding to the more efficient second covenant (loving God and neighbor).
        luigi, I will answer your question, for I am not ignoring your post, which actually is a solid attempt at answering the OP's questions. Thank you. I have to complete my previous thoughts that are in my previous post and if I have not commented on your post by then, I will afterward.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Covenants abolished?

          Is it the Law of Moses, whom one has to be circumcised in order to participate, the "Old Covenant" that Jesus supposed to have abolished? I Personally, I believe that when someone mentions that the Old Covenant is abolished, they are saying that God has done away with the covenant He made with Israel through Moses. If this s the case, then I completely disagree with you.

          1. God does not make promises He cannot keep. The original covenant with Israel is an extension of the covenant He made with Abraham, where God completes His promise to Abraham by establishing a covenant with Abraham's descendants, the children of Israel. We all say "amen" when we read scriptures like this one:

          Isaiah 55:10-11
          As the rain and the snow
          come down from heaven,
          and do not return to it
          without watering the earth
          and making it bud and flourish,
          so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
          11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
          It will not return to me empty,
          but will accomplish what I desire
          and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


          but when we see God in action, we write it off as something, anything, everything else but what it is. Jesus had indeed come to the earth. He indeed created a means in which all men can be saved. He did not, however, abolish any Law. I believe that many miss the purpose of Jesus coming to the earth in the first place.

          Matthew 5:17-18
          “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

          2. Jesus, in His first sermon, states that He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but rather, He has come to fulfill them. From that moment onward, the Lord has gone out and preached His Gospel to the "lost sheep of Israel", teaching them that they were disobedient to the Laws in which they were given so long ago. Traditions that have been added to the Law corrupted it, just like the false doctrines in the churches today has corroded the churches. The people had no true source for truth concerning God. So, in comes Jesus Christ, and the pruning process begins. Those traditions that made a mockery of God's Laws were highlighted, and abolished. He did signs so that the people can see that He is not just some fly-by-night preacher interested in lining his pockets with money. Kicking the merchants out of the Temple, telling people that there is no exemption for following the fourth commandment, and highlighting to the Sadducees that there is an actual resurrection are just some of the things in which Jesus did to highlight the fact that God's Law is to be followed by those it is intended for, the Israelites.

          Unless we forget, Jesus was grilled concerning the most important commandments in the Old Testament, and Jesus responded as follows:

          Matthew 22:34-40
          Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
          37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

          I do not think I have adjusted the size to be big enough for everyone to clearly read. I would like to highlight the [c] and the [d] in this quotation. I have mentioned before that I use www.biblegateway.com for all of my posts here, and here is another reason why. These are footnotes that are often used by this website to show a reference to another scripture, usually from the Old Testament. Here is what that website wrote as the reference for these two commandments.

          Exert from www.biblegateway.com
          1. Matthew 22:37 Deut. 6:5
          2. Matthew 22:39 Lev. 19:18



          These scriptures that Jesus makes a direct reference to are considered, even today in most rabbinic circles, to be the MOST IMPORTANT Laws of the Torah. That would make the goals of Jesus' ministry and that of the Torah one and the same, for it is the Law to:

          Deuteronomy 6:4-5
          Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a]5Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

          and:

          Leviticus 19:18
          “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.I am the Lord.

          are vital to honoring the Law, if you are a Jew who has been circumcised. This is my point, because the Law itself has not been abolished.


          Getting long again, so I will complete my thought in the next post.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Covenants abolished?

            So what exactly did Jesus do when He came to the Earth? He made sure that the people who were under the "Old" covenant followed that "Old" covenant properly. In all that He has said, for every command that He has given, He did it so that the people who were under the covenant would not be left for judgment due to the irresponsibility of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Here is just one quotation of what Jesus Christ had answered concerning honoring the Law. (Remember, the Law is for the Jew, not for the Gentile.)

            Matthew 23:2-4
            The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

            Their religion was corrupted, and Jesus Christ, their Messiah, highlighted the exact problem that brought about His advent in the first place. He called those whom He was preaching to the "lost sheep of Israel". The Book of Matthew is full of, "you have hear... but I say to you..." because of the fact that the religion of Israel, what people call Judaism, was corrupted by the Sadducees and Pharisees, the people who were in charge of keeping and teaching others to honor the covenant that God previously made with their forefathers.

            Jesus Christ, during His ministry, pruned most of the garbage from the Law. Laws that made no sense, like the honoring of one's father and mother exemption, were eliminated altogether. Others which have been misunderstood were given clarity, like the Dietary Laws and circumcision and the Kingdom of God. Clear up to the point in which Jesus Christ died on the cross, He did not teach people to forsake the Laws of Moses. He taught them how to actually follow those laws properly.

            Example after example of showing how the true intent of the Laws were so that Israel could be mentally, physically, and spiritually read to take God's message and go forth to the Gentile nations and have people convert to the teachings of God. Out of the many who were called, only the chosen few were actually able and ready by the end of Jesus' ministry to spread the message that God wants all of mankind. Remember, the purpose of God showing Himself to Israel and being their God is so that He can have the entire world know that He alone is God.

            So the Lord dies, and invalidates the animal sacrifices that were used to "atone for sin". The only thing He abolished was the animal sacrifices, and that was not through a decree, but through His act of bearing the sins of mankind and dying on the Cross. That portion of the covenant with Israel was indeed abolished, but what about the rest of the Law. Was that abolished too when Christ Jesus died on the Cross? Not in the slightest. The Jews still have to honor the dietary Laws, for the most part, not because if they do not, they will defile themselves. Jesus corrected that misnomer that a lot of Israelites believed at that time. They are to be a "peculiar" people, and they are to follow the decrees that are in both the Law and the Prophets, which include Isaiah 53:1-6. This requires that they, the Jews, believe that Jesus Christ, the One who fulfilled this prophecy, is the Son of God.

            This is my point, the Jews are in disobedience because they have not believed that Jesus Christ is their Messiah. That is part of the Law that they are to follow. Take a look at Deuteronomy 18 for a second.

            Deuteronomy 18:14-16
            The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

            People who are sent by God are to be honored and obeyed. Whether Jesus Christ was viewed as a prophet or the Son of God holds no relevance at this point. It is the point that people sent by God are to be obeyed. The the majority of Israelites refused to even acknowledge that Jesus was sent by God, let alone honoring His message. That is why 70 AD happened. They rejected Jesus Christ, and because of that, God honored His portion of the covenant and exiled the Jews from Jerusalem and Israel. They are still on the hook for not honoring God's Son, and because of that, I say that Ezekiel 36 perfectly fits the situation in which God has brought Israel back from the dead. People need to understand that God has Israel and He is dealing with His nation, even as He is gathering the Gentiles to Himself.

            Now, what does that mean for us? Nothing, because we are not of that covenant. We never were. Unless one is Jewish by blood, one cannot become part of that covenant. So what is this covenant that we are under? Look at the Book of Acts. Peter and the others discover that God wants the Gentiles, and found it fitting to not force them into the same covenant that they themselves were a part of. Instead, they have brought about simple rules in which we are to follow, which include the commandments that all mankind are to follow, the original 10 and the words of Jesus Christ. That is it. Honoring Jesus Christ is a separate covenant for us, the Gentiles, separate from the covenant that God made with Israel. This covenant is brought about by the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as His Sacrifice on the Cross. In this covenant, we carry the portion of the Jewish scriptures that most synagogues aren't using, let alone adhering to. Through our following of this portion of their covenant, we gain not only the promises that Jesus Christ gave to all who believe that He is the Son of God, but also all of the prosperity that the Jews were supposed to enjoy through their obedience. This is done this way so that the Jews will be envious of the success of the Gentile believer, causing some of them to find out what they are missing, and repent of their sins to their God.

            Individually, that has worked for a long time, about 1877 years to be exact. The Gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah have received unparalleled success over the years, establishing a center for their religion, Vatican City, in Rome, and Istanbul in Turkey. They have brought about so many good things throughout the age and have been used by God to bring about the technology that we are enjoying today. Many Jews that have not had the need to become famous have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and have walked according to the entirety of the covenant that their people have with God. To God, they are God's chosen people, due to their obedience to the entire Law, including the teachings of Jesus Christ.. They believe that Jesus has died so they do not have to kill a dove or a lamb any longer. Why do we not know about this? Because if they had went public, they would be scorned. They would be shunned by both Christian Gentiles and their Jewish counterparts. The fact of the matter is that if a Jew incorporates the teachings of Jesus Christ into his religion, He will become like us, a Believer. He will be a Jewish believer, but a Believer nonetheless.

            But what happened in the 1930's? The people of Europe wanted the Jew to disappear from the face of the Earth. Facing extinction, the people of Israel needed their God to save them, not spiritually, but literally, from the hands of their adversaries, the Europeans. It was not due to their sudden communal obedience to Jesus Christ that God brought them out of Europe. It is because the Europeans sought to destroy the Israelites that God wanted to save. Instead of just shaming the Jew, they went way beyond the point of no return by attempting to kill them. What was Israel's God to do in this situation? Let them die? I think not. He is God, after all. If He let all of them die in Europe in the 1930's, then our belief in Him is utterly useless because when it is our turn, no flesh will survive.

            But we know that when our turn comes, there will be survivors. Matthew 24 tells us that there will be people who believe that Jesus is the Son of God that He will gather to Himself when He returns. If this is the truth, then Israel cannot be wiped off of the face of the planet. For they were the first to be under His covenant, the same one in which the latter portion of that covenant is what we, the Gentile Christians, are following to this very day. Because God is God, He had to save Israel. It was not due to their "sudden obedience", but because God is whom He says He is. He promised Abraham that he will have descendants, and those descendants, irregardless as to their state of obedience, are protected by the God of that nation.

            Another truth. The Jews are supposed to be honoring the Law as given in the Torah and amended by the book of Matthew and the New Testament. This is the completion of their religion, which is what Paul highlighted in Romans 11. Contrary to popular opinion, there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that absolves the Jews from the covenant of Moses. They have to honor the amendments that have been given by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but that does not release them from the Laws of Moses.

            This is why I cannot agree with the presumption that God has done away with the Jewish covenant. The scriptures show us that the religion that we enjoy today is actually theirs, and the prophecies that are in the New Testament are prophecies that include the ones meant for the Jews to understand, comprehend, and have faith in. To simply say that all of this is abolished is to literally throw away the Old Testament, and the history that brought us the religion that we enjoy and adhere to today. That is a disservice to Jews, Christians, God, and Christianity. God does not make temporary covenants. His words are reliable and true, in spite of what others attempt to say. God has not done away with the Law, but have brought about the means by which all men, the Jews and Gentiles, to properly obey God. To the Jew, the covenant, in reality, is the unity of the Old and New Testament, the entire Bible itself. To the Gentile, it is the Gospel, as well as the instructions of the Disciples in the Book of Acts as well as the instructions of Paul and the rest of the New Testament. God removed nothing, and Jesus Christ is returning to complete the prophecies that were unfulfilled in the past.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Covenants abolished?

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              • #8
                Re: Covenants abolished?

                Originally posted by the Seeker View Post
                I have read many times in here that "the Old Covenant has been abolished", as though there are scriptures showing how Jesus has done away with the Old Covenant.

                I have a question for everyone, what does that mean, and when did this happen?

                More importantly, did Jesus Christ abolish a covenant that God made before He walked this earth?


                Please show actual scripture in the explanations, because I am sick of allusions to doctrines that have no biblical foundation being flaunted around like it is truth, unchallenged for the most part.
                Notwithstanding what you have written since, I would like to answer this original post.

                There are diverse Covenants in the bible. The main ones are;
                1. The Covenant of the Rainbow with all men in the person of Noah. It lasts as long as winter and summer, and day and night last (Gen.8:22). It is never abolished as the earth "remains". But this Covenant carries the death penalty, and as there is no more death on the New Earth (Rev.21:4) it will cease to be enforced.
                2. The Covenant of PROMISE given to Abraham which is never abolished (Gal.3:17). This Covenant guaranteed the giving of the Good Land to the earthly seed of Abraham, and later the earth to the heavenly seed of Abraham (Rom.4:13).
                3. The Covenant of the Sabbath - made ONLY with Israel and NOT abolished. Israel are restored in the seventh one-thousand year frame and so it is thus fulfilled.
                4. The Covenant of Law of Sinai written on stones. This Covenant was to guarantee that Israel stayed in their Good Land AFTER the Covenant of PROMISE to Abraham was carried out. Israel broke this Covenant and were thus driven out of the the Good Land as per its conditions. This Covenant is ABOLISHED and will be (still future) replaced by a New Covenant of the same Laws, but not written on stones (Jer.31; Heb.8). It will be written on the hearts of the Israelites and they will then keep it and never be driven from their Land again AFTER being restored in their Millennial Sabbath.

                The only Covenant to be abolished was the Covenant of Law of Sinai. Here are the scriptures;

                Hebrews 8:13
                "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

                Jeremiah 31:31-33
                "31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
                32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
                33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."


                Hebrews 8:8-11
                "8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
                9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
                10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
                11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."


                Note 1. It is not the Law that is abolished, but the Covenant. The New Covenant is a Covenant of the same Laws (Jer.31:33; Heb.8:10).

                Note 2. The condition for the Abrahamic Covenant of promise was circumcision. Circumcision is not abolished, but replaced by that circumcision without hands - Baptism (Col.2:11-12). One was the cutting off of the flesh as a sign (Rom.4:11), and Baptism is the symbol (or sign) of cutting off the whole flesh (Rom.6:2, 6).

                Note 3. Ephesians 2:15-16 ....

                "15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
                16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"


                ..... does NOT say the Law is abolished for Israel. Here, the "law of commandments" is abolished for ONLY for men who embrace the NEW MAN - the Church, which is constructed "OUT OF TWO" - that is, out of the nations and out of the nation of Israel. The Law is abolished for a Jew who converts to Christ so that there are no laws to divide the heathen convert and the Jewish convert in the daily Church life (exactly why Paul had to write the book of Romans). If a Jew embraces Christ, and becomes a member of the New Man, he is no longer reckoned by God as a Jew (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). But the Jew who rejects Christ remains subject to Law.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Covenants abolished?

                  Just to say I generally agree with Walls' answer except on two points:
                  1) The Sabbath wasn't a covenant as such - rather it is a statement of how God made things work. Ignore it and things don't work as well.
                  2) The Old Covenant is NOT actually gone yet. The quote from Hebrews 8 is actually a key one to grasp. Verse 13 states it is disappearing, because the New one has appeared. It seems the proportion that the New is in effect, thus the proportion the Old is no longer in effect.
                  An example is shown in John the Baptist who stated:
                  Joh 3:29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.
                  Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease."
                  Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

                  This is a statement NOT only of the individual BUT also of the two covenants.
                  The Old is not completely gone until the other part of Heb 8 is fulfilled. As Walls put, this echoes Jer 31 and also the following:
                  Isa 2:2 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,
                  Isa 2:3 and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
                  Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

                  Now some hold that this has already happened and on one level it certainly has - the New is indeed written on our hearts, but is this true of the House of Israel?
                  I would say NOT. Some argue that "we" are now the House of Israel - that is the "true" Israel. This I disagree with.
                  Thus if we see a lingering effect of the Old - it is where the New has NOT yet been brought.
                  Romans 2 confirms this.
                  Dan 2 also has this to say:
                  Dan 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
                  This filling the whole earth is the time in which we live, yet the whole earth is yet to be filled.

                  IOW The Old Covenant is superseded by the New and is replacing it throughout the World, but it is NOT gone yet - until Jesus returns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Covenants abolished?

                    Originally posted by Vakeros View Post
                    Just to say I generally agree with Walls' answer except on two points:
                    1) The Sabbath wasn't a covenant as such - rather it is a statement of how God made things work. Ignore it and things don't work as well.
                    2) The Old Covenant is NOT actually gone yet. The quote from Hebrews 8 is actually a key one to grasp. Verse 13 states it is disappearing, because the New one has appeared. It seems the proportion that the New is in effect, thus the proportion the Old is no longer in effect.
                    An example is shown in John the Baptist who stated:
                    Joh 3:29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.
                    Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease."
                    Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

                    This is a statement NOT only of the individual BUT also of the two covenants.
                    The Old is not completely gone until the other part of Heb 8 is fulfilled. As Walls put, this echoes Jer 31 and also the following:
                    Isa 2:2 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,
                    Isa 2:3 and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
                    Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

                    Now some hold that this has already happened and on one level it certainly has - the New is indeed written on our hearts, but is this true of the House of Israel?
                    I would say NOT. Some argue that "we" are now the House of Israel - that is the "true" Israel. This I disagree with.
                    Thus if we see a lingering effect of the Old - it is where the New has NOT yet been brought.
                    Romans 2 confirms this.
                    Dan 2 also has this to say:
                    Dan 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
                    This filling the whole earth is the time in which we live, yet the whole earth is yet to be filled.

                    IOW The Old Covenant is superseded by the New and is replacing it throughout the World, but it is NOT gone yet - until Jesus returns.
                    Hoping to maintain the brotherly courtesy, I answer that I am constrained by these scriptures to establish that the Sabbath is an exclusive Covenant between God and Israel.
                    Exodus 31:16
                    "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."

                    Leviticus 24:8
                    "Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant."

                    Isaiah 56:6
                    "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"

                    However, I am also in agreement that the Sabbath, built BEFORE Israel, is, as Vakeros says, a crucial indication of God's ways. Sevens in the bible are crucial to its understanding.

                    Also, without contradicting my brother Vakeros concerning the Old gradually "passing", or as scripture says "waxing old and ready to vanish away", which implies an ongoing process, I would like to add that Hebrews was written before the destruction of the Temple. The Temple is crucial to the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 12:5, 11, 21, 14:23-24 etc.). Could it be that the Law actually "passed away" with the destruction of the Temple and Judah's subsequent dispersion in 70AD? This would make sense of the word "ready" to pass away.

                    Just thinking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Covenants abolished?

                      There are several covenants our God has made, With Noah, with Abraham, with Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants. The covenant that has been replaced is with the descendants of Israel when they came out of Egypt. Notice also the last part, “though I was a husband to them” All this was the prophecy for Christ to fulfill.

                      Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

                      Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

                      A covenant is a contract, You do this and I will do that. Do what I say and you can live on the land. Christ came to bring a new, better covenant with better promises. Christ did not get rid of the laws, just put them in a different place.

                      Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

                      Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

                      Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-

                      Heb 8:9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

                      Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

                      Heb 8:11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

                      Heb 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

                      Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

                      Remember that part about “though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.” Our lord died to break that covenant and marriage so we can remarry.

                      Romans 7:2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

                      Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

                      Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Covenants abolished?

                        Originally posted by T W Taylor View Post
                        There are several covenants our God has made, With Noah, with Abraham, with Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants. The covenant that has been replaced is with the descendants of Israel when they came out of Egypt. Notice also the last part, “though I was a husband to them” All this was the prophecy for Christ to fulfill.

                        Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

                        Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

                        A covenant is a contract, You do this and I will do that. Do what I say and you can live on the land. Christ came to bring a new, better covenant with better promises. Christ did not get rid of the laws, just put them in a different place.

                        Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

                        Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

                        Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-

                        Heb 8:9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

                        Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

                        Heb 8:11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

                        Heb 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

                        Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

                        Remember that part about “though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.” Our lord died to break that covenant and marriage so we can remarry.

                        Romans 7:2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

                        Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

                        Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
                        Just to clear up the details...

                        It seems to me that Jehovah was Husband to Israel (Isa.54:5) and the the marriage was dissolved by writment of divorce for harlotry (Isa.50:1; Jer.3:8). As the Law forbids remarriage after the unfaithful is joined to another partner (Deut.24:1-4), the remarriage of Israel with Jehovah can only happen AFTER resurrection. That is, it is the death of the infidel Israelites which sets the stage for remarriage. Thus, when all is fulfilled, the "unfaithful" generation will pass.

                        "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34).

                        So also Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32.

                        Jesus, true to the principle of one man - one wife, is ONLY married to the Church (2nd Cor.11:2). He is King over Israel but not its Husband.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Covenants abolished?

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          Hoping to maintain the brotherly courtesy, I answer that I am constrained by these scriptures to establish that the Sabbath is an exclusive Covenant between God and Israel.
                          Exodus 31:16
                          "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."

                          Leviticus 24:8
                          "Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant."

                          Isaiah 56:6
                          "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"
                          Rather than the word exclusive I would use the word explicit - an din this way covenanted as part of the wider Covenant between God and Israel.

                          However, I am also in agreement that the Sabbath, built BEFORE Israel, is, as Vakeros says, a crucial indication of God's ways. Sevens in the bible are crucial to its understanding.
                          So we are in agreement I think here.

                          Also, without contradicting my brother Vakeros concerning the Old gradually "passing", or as scripture says "waxing old and ready to vanish away", which implies an ongoing process, I would like to add that Hebrews was written before the destruction of the Temple. The Temple is crucial to the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 12:5, 11, 21, 14:23-24 etc.). Could it be that the Law actually "passed away" with the destruction of the Temple and Judah's subsequent dispersion in 70AD? This would make sense of the word "ready" to pass away.
                          Just thinking.
                          I understand this thinking as it makes sense - however I have also discarded it as the Old Covenant wasn't removed when the first Temple was destroyed - you may argue it was held in abeyance, but I think that we see it ongoing and in fact there was a call to return to the Covenant during the period there was no Temple (between 1st and 2nd.)
                          Thus what is it that explicitly shows the Old is gone?
                          I think it is solely when the New is written on the hearts of ALL men everywhere.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Covenants abolished?

                            Originally posted by Vakeros View Post

                            .....


                            I understand this thinking as it makes sense - however I have also discarded it as the Old Covenant wasn't removed when the first Temple was destroyed - you may argue it was held in abeyance, but I think that we see it ongoing and in fact there was a call to return to the Covenant during the period there was no Temple (between 1st and 2nd.)
                            Thus what is it that explicitly shows the Old is gone?
                            I think it is solely when the New is written on the hearts of ALL men everywhere.
                            I find this a good argument. No way I can refute this.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Covenants abolished?

                              The Ten Commandments and the New Covenant
                              Exodus 20:3-17:
                              1/ You shall have no other gods before Me.
                              It is written: You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve. Luke 4:8, Matthew 4:10, Rev. 14:7
                              2/ You must not make for yourself a carved image, a likeness of anything in heaven, on earth, or under the sea.
                              God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24, Acts 15:20, 1 Cor. 6:9, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Rev. 2:14
                              3/ You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain.
                              I say to you: do not swear at all…let your yes be yes and your no be no, for whatever is more that these is from the evil one. Matthew 5:34-37, 1 Tim. 6:1, James 2:7
                              4/ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
                              The Sabbath [seventh day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. Mark 2:27-28, For Christians that seventh day is Sunday, as the first day of our week is Monday. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2
                              5/ Honour your father and mother.
                              Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Ephesians 6:1, Col 3:20
                              6/ You shall not murder.
                              I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:44-45, Matt. 5:21-26, Romans 13:9, 1 Tim. 1:9, 1 John 3:15
                              7/ You shall not commit adultery.
                              I say to you whoever even looks at another in lust has already committed adultery in their heart. Matthew 5:28, 1 Cor. 5:11, 1 Cor. 6:18, Galatians 5:19, Hebrews 13:4
                              8/ You shall not steal.
                              Neither thieves, the greedy, or drunkards and robbers will inherit the Kingdom. 1 Cor. 6:10, Romans 2:21, Mark 7:21, Ephesians 4:28
                              9/ You shall not bear false witness.
                              For by your words, you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 4:25, Col. 3:9
                              10/ You shall not covet your neighbours possessions.
                              Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist of the things he possesses. Luke 12:15, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 5:3, 1 Tim. 6:10, Hebrews 13:5
                              Further New Testament scriptures:
                              John 1:17 The Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
                              Luke 16:16a The Law and the prophets were until John the Baptizer, now the good news of the Kingdom is preached...
                              Matthew 5:17 I have come not to abolish the Law, but to complete it.
                              Romans 6:15 Can we sin then because we are not under the Law? God forbid!
                              Galatians 5:14 The whole Law is fulfilled in this: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
                              Are the Ten Commandments still in effect? In principal they still are, now incorporated into the New Covenant, for which Jesus is the mediator. Those Ten Commandments are restated and expanded under the New Covenant, we must obey them and do God’s will for us today. Matthew 5:20, 1 Peter 2:16

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