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  • I don't understand about pre-tribulation

    I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

    But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

    I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.

  • #2
    For a simple and quick look at how things will unfold - go to Rev. 19.
    See how salvation is part of the beginning of the chapter - then read Hebrews 9:28 - as shows that Jesus will appear at the time of salvation.

    Okay, so let the rapture happen at the start of the chapter - and then read v2 as to how the city that corrupted the earth is also to be taken down at the same time.
    Mystery, Babylon - the great tribulation slayer of the church - will go down at the start of chapter 19 too.

    So let the tribulation against the church be over and then read on and soon we come to the marriage moment -
    After this - keep going and you will find that armies dressed in the same attire as the saints received at the marriage event time - will come down from heaven.

    One of these armies will head to fight at Armageddon against the beast.

    In Rev. 20 - they will sit to reign
    and the other army group (the trib had victory already over the beast people) will also sit to reign.

    Satan was bound for 1000 years - and Christ reigns on the earth with His saints (that eventually all had victory over the beast)
    http://prophecyinsights.com

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    • #3
      Originally posted by *Living~By~Faith* View Post
      I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

      But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

      I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.
      To explain the difference, pre-tribbers believe Jesus comes twice, the first time he just meets us in the air and takes us back to heaven. The tribulation then occurs without the raptured Christians on earth. Then Jesus comes again (with all us raptured heavenly saints) at the end of the tribulation and sets up his 1000 year reign with us here on earth.

      Post-tribbers believe Christians will go through the tribulation , and will be raptured (at the resurrection) when Jesus comes again. We will be raptured into the heavenly realms to avoid the final judgements that happen on earth on the day of the Lord, but on that same day God will set up His 1000 year reign on earth and we will be at peace on earth with our resurrected bodies.

      I believe in post-trib.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by *Living~By~Faith* View Post
        I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

        But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

        I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.
        The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!

        Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him. Then He reigns upon the earth for the thousand years.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
          The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!
          But you believe in two future parousias of Christ.

          1 Thess 4
          13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
          15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
          16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          The Greek word for "coming" in that verse is parousia (Strong's G3952). The same word used in the following passages:

          Matt 24
          27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.
          28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
          29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          2 Thess 2
          1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
          2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
          3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

          1 Thess 3:13
          To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

          But there will not be two future parousias of Christ. Christ Himself only spoke of one. And it will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and not before "there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed". And He will be coming "with all his saints" which refers to "them also which sleep in Jesus" which will be coming with Him at His one and only future parousia (1 Thess 4:14).

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          • #6
            I am not going to debate the word parousia. We have context in scripture of us meeting Him in the clouds, context of Him returning with His saints. And we have context of angels gathering the elect. The tearing apart of the word parousia changes nothing of the context.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
              I am not going to debate the word parousia. We have context in scripture of us meeting Him in the clouds, context of Him returning with His saints. And we have context of angels gathering the elect. The tearing apart of the word parousia changes nothing of the context.
              You don't have to do anything you don't want to do but I showed the context of how the parousia of Christ should be understood. His parousia will occur after the tribulation of those days and not before the massive falling away and man of sin is revealed. And both Jesus and Paul only spoke of one parousia of Christ, not two.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!

                Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him. Then He reigns upon the earth for the thousand years.
                Hi QD,

                I see that you don't want to "tear apart" the word "parousia" with John146 , but you started the focus on the word "coming" yourself. I posted that pre-tribs believe in 2 comings and yours was the next post saying pre-tribs believe in only 1 coming. You obviously felt it was necessary to focus on this word , even though you describe the same event that I described (meeting in the clouds) but say this is not a "coming". I think in the context of you contradicting me in the next post, it was entirely correct of John146 to show you that in fact pre-tribbers believe in two comings.
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 13th 2008, 07:04 AM. Reason: Adjusting point

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                • #9
                  It seems as even though the same word is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be same event.

                  Rapture -
                  Translation of believers
                  Translated saints go to heaven
                  Earth not judged
                  Imminent, any moment, signless
                  Not in the Old Testament
                  Believers Only
                  Before the Day of Wrath

                  2nd Coming -
                  No translation involved
                  Translated saints return toearth
                  Earth judged
                  Follows definite predicted signs
                  Predicted in the Old Testament
                  Affects all men on the earth
                  Concludes the Day of Wrath

                  An analogy would be like talking about "the football game" are we talking soccer or American Football, the Packers-Bears game or local high school game.
                  Acts 17:11

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Khoolaid View Post
                    It seems as even though the same word is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be same event.

                    Rapture -
                    Translation of believers
                    Translated saints go to heaven
                    Earth not judged
                    Imminent, any moment, signless
                    Not in the Old Testament
                    Believers Only
                    Before the Day of Wrath
                    Your evidence of these definitions, especially in light of 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 14:14-20?

                    2nd Coming -
                    No translation involved
                    Translated saints return toearth
                    Earth judged
                    Follows definite predicted signs
                    Predicted in the Old Testament
                    Affects all men on the earth
                    Concludes the Day of Wrath
                    I repeat the same question above.

                    An analogy would be like talking about "the football game" are we talking soccer or American Football, the Packers-Bears game or local high school game.

                    Naturally, I do not agree with any of these terms. According to scripture, the "rapture" as defined by Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and the second coming of the Lord are in fact part of the same event that happens concurrently.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                      Hi QD,

                      I see that you don't want to "tear apart" the word "parousia" with John146 , but you started the focus on the word "coming" yourself. I posted that pre-tribs believe in 2 comings and yours was the next post saying pre-tribs believe in only 1 coming. You obviously felt it was necessary to focus on this word , even though you describe the same event that I described (meeting in the clouds) but say this is not a "coming". I think in the context of you contradicting me in the next post, it was entirely correct of John146 to show you that in fact pre-tribbers believe in two comings.
                      No, I didn't feel it necessary to focus on the word coming, I felt in necessary to correct the statement that pre trib believes in two Second Advents of Christ. And as I said, the word coming does define the context, only an event within the context. Coming back, coming for, coming with. Coming in the clouds, coming to the earth. Coming is not the entire context or definition of the event spoken of.


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                      • #12
                        third hero asked for some Bible verses:

                        I'll give it a try. I'll list the differences like this Rapture/2nd Coming, then provide some verses.

                        translation of believers/No translation involved
                        1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18/none

                        Translated saints go to heaven/Translated saints return to earth
                        1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4:17 (caught up)/Jude 1:14, Rev 19:11-20:6

                        Earth not judged/Earth judged
                        none/Jude 1:15, Matt 25, Rev 20:4

                        Imminent, any moment signless/Follows definite predicted signs
                        Titus 2:13, 1 Th 1:10/

                        Not in the Old Testament/Predicted in the Old Testament
                        none/1800+ references OT, 300+ in NT

                        Believers Only/Affects all men on the earth
                        1 Cor 15/Matt 25

                        Before the Day of Wrath/concludes the Day of Wrath
                        1 Thes 5:9, Luke 21:36/Matt 24:29
                        Acts 17:11

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                          Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him.

                          Let's look at this from a post-trib perspective. Christ returns at the end of the trib. The dead in Christ rise first. Those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air and are forever with Him. When Christ is returning, where is He returning to? The earth. And if all the saints are to be forever with Him, then it's only logical that this is how it occurs after the trib, IOW it doen't have to occur before the trib in order to be logical. It can also occur after the trib and still be logical as well. If the above events transpire before Christ touches the ground, then this would explain why all of the saints are with Him. Some have been resurrected, some have been changed in the twinkling of an eye, and these would be with Him as He literally returns to the earth.

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                          • #14
                            Interesting responses.. I consider myself a pre-tribber and believe He will come twice - first to rapture the church, and again to rule the earth.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              Let's look at this from a post-trib perspective. Christ returns at the end of the trib. The dead in Christ rise first. Those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air and are forever with Him. When Christ is returning, where is He returning to? The earth. And if all the saints are to be forever with Him, then it's only logical that this is how it occurs after the trib, IOW it doen't have to occur before the trib in order to be logical. It can also occur after the trib and still be logical as well. If the above events transpire before Christ touches the ground, then this would explain why all of the saints are with Him. Some have been resurrected, some have been changed in the twinkling of an eye, and these would be with Him as He literally returns to the earth.
                              If that is logical, then those saint, living and dead, that meet Him in the air, and then come with Him to earth at His Second Advent, I assume were gathered by angles first? And how is it they watched Him come if they were with Him when He came and at what point were they gathered by the angels and separated from the goats, is that before or after they met Him in the clouds to come with Him and see Him coming at the same time?


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