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  • Discussion Satan restricts himself??

    A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

    12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

    Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

    Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
    2 Thessalonians 2 ??
    6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
    9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.

    Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 16th 2008, 08:38 AM. Reason: Adding some thoughts

  • #2
    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

    12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

    Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

    Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
    2 Thessalonians 2 ??
    6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
    9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed".

    This is a pretty good question that shows your knowledge well. I guess all I can say is this:

    His restraint comes from a belief that he still has a chance. He thinks he still has a chance because he is being allowed to accuse.

    Are you familiar with the term; 'When Horses fly' and the story behind it?

    Then lastly to answer your question directly, yes I do believe that 2 Thes and Rev 12 are directly related. BUT, When was John at Patmos writing Rev, and when did Paul write 2 Thes?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Back2Front View Post
      This is a pretty good question that shows your knowledge well. I guess all I can say is this:

      His restraint comes from a belief that he still has a chance. He thinks he still has a chance because he is being allowed to accuse.

      Are you familiar with the term; 'When Horses fly' and the story behind it?

      Then lastly to answer your question directly, yes I do believe that 2 Thes and Rev 12 are directly related. BUT, When was John at Patmos writing Rev, and when did Paul write 2 Thes?
      Hmm? Just wondering how you know what satan believes or thinks ? Maybe his restraint is just because he wants to defer his end, or he prefers accusing the saints to a short period of earthly rule.

      I haven't heard of that term "when horses fly", mabe you could tell me more?

      I would guess Rev was written abot 90 AD , and 2 Thess apparently 51/52 AD , why do you ask?

      Comment


      • #4
        When Horses fly:

        There once was a court Jester that often made the King and his court very happy through his talents to entertain and marry make.

        After a period of time the King even befriended the Jester. One day, The Jester was entertaining the Kings court. Through the familiarity that had grown between the Jester and the King, The Jester began making personal jokes about the King and his family. The Entire court was in an uproar with laughter. The Jester didn't realize that the King though, wasn't laughing.

        Then the King spoke, and the court grew dead silent. He asked the Jester,

        "Why are you sharing with this court private things I have told you as a friend in private. Can you not see that it is causing my subjects to laugh at me, mock me, and stand against me? Can you not see that for the price af a simple laugh you have betrayed our friendship and my trust for you?"

        The Jester replied back,

        "Perhaps It is you who are my fool, and not I that is yours."

        At that statement, without a command, the guards of the court immediately rose up and seized the Jester. The King then ordained,

        "Prepare the gallows immediately, as this man is guilty of treason through the presumption of his wicked heart, causing this blasphemy of his tongue! Today this kingdom rids itself of such a one! Take him away!"

        With that the guards began to take the seized Jester away to be prepared with a beating for his hanging.

        But the King was a good King, a merciful King, and a forgiving King. So as the guards were dragging the Jester from the court, hearing the pleas from his once friend to spare his life, the King ordered them to stop. He asked the Jester anticipating repentance,

        "How say you!"

        But instead the Jester offered the King a deal.

        He said,

        "If you spare my life, I will go to the field where you keep your Prize Horses and teach them to fly."

        Immediately about one third of the Kings court ran to the King to try to convince him to take the deal.

        It was at that time the King became aware that treason existed throughout his court. His once trusted friend betrayed him, begged that his life be spared, but instead of repenting, is offering a phony deal that a portion of his court agrees with.

        Being smarter and wiser than the Jester and his followers, the King needed time to assemble and train his soldiers to defeat the Jester and expose and kill all of his followers.

        So the King told the Jester,

        "You and all of these whom have convinced me on your behalf, will be confined to the field with my Prize Horses. You have one year."

        After a very short time of being in the field, one of the followers asked their leader the Jester,

        "Why have you made this impossible deal with the King?"

        The Jester replied,

        "I have bought us a year to convince these horses to fight against the King with you and I. Maybe in that year the King may just die. Perhaps you and I or the horses will just die. Or maybe, just maybe, these horses will fly."


        Hmm? Just wondering how you know what satan believes or thinks?
        He talks to me a lot and tells me often what he believes and thinks. He is constantly trying to get me to see it his way.

        Comment


        • #5
          OK I see what you are saying , somethinglike this: Satan is trying to buy some time hoping that circumstances change, trying to "make a plan".

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
            OK I see what you are saying , somethinglike this: Satan is trying to buy some time hoping that circumstances change, trying to "make a plan".
            Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

            But I wonder why God's letting him do it?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Back2Front View Post
              Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

              But I wonder why God's letting him do it?
              The only explanation that I can come up with is free will.
              HE doesn't want to force anyone including angels,former angels, or any other created being to
              worship, serve, and Love Him no matter how much He desires it.
              It must come from the Heart and Soul or it is worthless to Him.
              "Love is not about you...and it never was"
              "Selfishness is inwardly focused, but Love is Always outwardly focused!"

              I am very anti-abortion, anti-murder, and Pro-Love.
              Gotta stop repeating myself...

              Stop Marfan - The Silent but deadly killer.
              It's main weapon is lack of truth.
              Please learn the truth about the Marfan syndrome
              by visiting The National Marfan Foundation.
              Feel free to ask me any questions you may have
              about the Marfan syndrome and I will answer them
              the best I can.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Back2Front View Post
                Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

                But I wonder why God's letting him do it?
                Back2Front, have you got a hidden agenda with all these questions? I would like to know your full thoughts on the subject upfront please.

                I don't know why God allows Satan to accuse us before him in God's presence. According to Rev 12 it appears that God is waiting for the brethren (us saints) to overcome through our testimony. (Maybe this means that the gospel must first be preached to every man.) But it seems as if Satan has that authority to be there in God's presence until the brethren overcome by the blood of the lamb (Rev 12:11) and Satan will not leave there until forced out.
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 16th 2008, 11:59 AM. Reason: Adjusting my answer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                  A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

                  12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
                  12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
                  12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
                  12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
                  12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
                  12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
                  12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

                  This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

                  Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

                  Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
                  2 Thessalonians 2 ??
                  6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
                  7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
                  8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
                  9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


                  Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.




                  2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                  2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                  3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                  4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                  5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
                  6 *And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
                  7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
                  8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                  9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                  10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


                  Let's look at verse 6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

                  The first question we need to ask, restraineth what? Obviously the answer should be within the previous 5 verses. But before we answer that, let's ask the next question. Who might be revealed in his time? Once again, the answer should be contained within the prev 5 verses. So let's look.

                  3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                  4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

                  There's the answer, it's the revealing of the man of sin. Since we now know that, what is the revealing of the man of sin restraining? Let's take a look.


                  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                  2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                  3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

                  There's the answer, the revealing of the man of sin is restraining the coming of Christ. IOW, verses 3 and 4 have to happen before Christ can return.


                  Also, I've tried to explain this in the past but apparently no one caught on. Take a look at this phrase in verse 7 in the Greek "until he be taken out of the way". You should be able to clearly see that no one is being taken out of the way, but someone is coming to be out of the midst. IMO, this would be the fullfillment of verse 4. After verse 4 is entirely fullfilled, then can verse 8 come to pass.
                  Last edited by divaD; Nov 16th 2008, 06:17 PM. Reason: typos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SammeyDW View Post
                    The only explanation that I can come up with is free will.
                    HE doesn't want to force anyone including angels,former angels, or any other created being to
                    worship, serve, and Love Him no matter how much He desires it.
                    It must come from the Heart and Soul or it is worthless to Him.
                    Yes Sammy you nailed it with your post. This is exactly why God allows Satan and everyone to do as they please for a season . It is free will. Free will is one of the most if not the most close thing to Gods heart. The whole Bible from the very start to the end is simply about free will and to Obey God. that is it in a nutshell. Adam had free will but in truth once Adam sinned there was no more free will all man then had a sin nature that was programed to sin.
                    It was only when Jesus came and died on the cross wit his shed blood that Man once again had free will as man in Gods sight then became sinless as God would look at born again man through the blood of his son.
                    Everything in the Bible is simply out free will of man and to Obey God.
                    This earth and the heaven also is in a fallen nature now because of orginal sin and Satan does have freedom now and is the prince of this world for now, however our promise of God is that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and this time man should get it right from the get go and not fall into the trap of not obeying God.
                    God Bless
                    Randy
                    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      There's the answer, the revealing of the man of sin is restraining the coming of Christ. IOW, verses 3 and 4 have to happen before Christ can return.
                      How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?


                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                        How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?
                        Very very well put. They indeed cannot, but are still trying aren't they? Yet are being allowed to do so not of their own authority, but of Gods permission.

                        That seems to be for his benefit through us somehow. Perhaps to prove that all is done upon his authority, as well as proof of those who will actively choose him given free will.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Back2Front View Post
                          Very very well put. They indeed cannot, but are still trying aren't they? Yet are being allowed to do so not of their own authority, but of Gods permission.

                          That seems to be for his benefit through us somehow. Perhaps to prove that all is done upon his authority, as well as proof of those who will actively choose him given free will.
                          I don't believe that Satan is being allowed to restrain Christ. I believe that the only freedom for any, man/woman, from the bondage of Satan and his kingdom is Christ, but that is not a restraining of Christ in any way. Satan is a lion roaming to find who he might devour, but that is not restraining Christ, it is restraining or hindering men. And that Satan can only do as he is allowed is not Satan restraining Christ, but Christ restraining Satan.


                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            I don't believe that Satan is being allowed to restrain Christ.
                            Sorry if that is the impression I have left, and in no way am I saying this either.

                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            I believe that the only freedom for any, man/woman, from the bondage of Satan and his kingdom is Christ, but that is not a restraining of Christ in any way. Satan is a lion roaming to find who he might devour, but that is not restraining Christ, it is restraining or hindering men. And that Satan can only do as he is allowed is not Satan restraining Christ, but Christ restraining Satan.
                            Yes that is exactly what I was saying as well.

                            Could you please do me a favor and take the time to quote me where I may have left the impression that I'm saying that I might think that Satan is restraining Christ?

                            I fear I have misrepresented myself and Christ by your responses to my posts, and this is pretty important to me that I don't do that.

                            Thank you

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                              How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?


                              quiet dove, here are the verses.

                              2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                              2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
                              3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                              4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                              5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
                              6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time


                              In verse 6 we learn that something is being restrained until someone is revealed. The answer has to be within the preceding 5 verses. If verse 3 tells us the one that needs to be revealed is the man of sin, then it would be the revealing of the man of sin that is holding back the return of Christ. Verse 6 is simply telling us that the revealing of the man of sin is holding back the return of Christ, because the man of sin has to be revealed in his time. In order for him to even be revealed in his time, there must first come a falling away and verse 4 has to be fullfilled before Christ will return.

                              If by the coming of Christ, that Wicked will be revealed, whom then He shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, it would make no sense if Christ came before verse 4 was fullfilled. But let's look at it from that perspective for a moment. Christ comes back before verse 4 is fullfilled. Please explain how that would work?

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