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  • Gog

    Ezekiel 38:1-3
    "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
    And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:"


    Right from the first we learn that Gog is a land mass, and is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.


    Meshech and Tubal were regional areas of several ancient kingdoms that existed before and during the days of Ezekiel.


    Today, Meshech would have been found situated in the western part of Turkey, and Tubal in the eastern section.


    These two tribal regions were mentioned in such away for the precise purpose of pinpointing a specific area of land that would one day be a major factor in the fulfillment of end time prophecy.


    Gog is one of a conglomerate of Magog nations, which are listed for us in chapter 38:5-6: Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, and the house of Togarmah of the north quarter.


    Interestingly, Gomer was once located in what is now known as northeastern Turkey, while the house of Togarmah would have been found in the southeast.


    Turkey, along with the rest of the Magog nations will be united by one strong tie that binds even the worse of people together, religion.


    And, being Islamic, they will quickly develop a relationship with a man known as the false prophet, along with his massive end time kingdom that will one day rule the land of Israel, the city of Jerusalem and the Arab nations of the Middle East.


    Understanding the budding relationship between the Magog nations and the false prophet can help define the three roles that Gog plays in Ez.38-39, which are barely discernible and often viewed as one event.


    seeker

  • #2
    Ezekiel 14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land



    Who comes from the far north? Gog

    Where is the near north to Israel: Lebanon and Syria

    Where is the medium north to Israel: Turkey

    Where is the far north of Israel: Russia



    Gog's place is Russia

    Comment


    • #3
      My theory only...


      God is:
      O Gog, the chief prince

      he is demonic prince

      My personal belief is that these are demonic kingdoms and demons who rule these Kingdoms.


      Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

      Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


      Here Daniel is speaking of supernatural forces....demonic princes



      Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        Ezekiel 14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land



        Who comes from the far north? Gog

        Where is the near north to Israel: Lebanon and Syria

        Where is the medium north to Israel: Turkey

        Where is the far north of Israel: Russia



        Gog's place is Russia

        Durban Dude,
        The Lord identified Gog as chief of two exclusive pieces of ancient real estate, Meshech and Tubal, both of which can be located as tribal regions that once existed in what we now call the nation of Turkey.

        And, as though this were not enough, the Lord continued to outline the land of Gog by including Gomer and the house of Togarmah, both ancient regions that also existed within the borders of modern day Turkey.

        You stated that the phrase "far north" equated to Russia. This terminology is much too vague and broad.

        Consider similar phrases in other passages, "north quarters" and "north parts", Ez.38:6,15, which were also used as descriptive terms for "far north".

        An excellent example of this is found with the house of Togarmah, which is referred to as "of the north quarters", an ancient region located in the southeastern parts of Turkey.

        Knowing this, it simply does not seem possible that "far north" reached beyond the borders of Turkey.

        Your phrase "medium north" is cute, but that's about all..What one might say is that Syria and Lebanon are north of Israel, while the northern most parts would be the area just north of Syria and Lebanon, makes more senses.


        seeker

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AlainaJ View Post
          My theory only...


          God is:
          O Gog, the chief prince

          he is demonic prince

          My personal belief is that these are demonic kingdoms and demons who rule these Kingdoms.


          Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

          Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


          Here Daniel is speaking of supernatural forces....demonic princes



          Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
          AlainaJ,
          Your theory is quite correct, there is a demonic prince who reigns over Gog, and should not be confused with Gog.

          The term "chief" in Ez.38:2 was not a reference to an actual man or demonic being. It was given for the purpose of identifying a future nation, whose land mass once contained two smaller ancient areas known as Meshech and Tubal.


          In Ez.39:1 the Lord states that he is against the nation of Gog, which would include the demonic prince over the nation.
          This is clarified for us in the next verse that states "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee".
          Does the Lord leave a sixth part of a demonic prince or nation? Do you see what I mean...


          seeker

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seeker_truth View Post
            Durban Dude,
            The Lord identified Gog as chief of two exclusive pieces of ancient real estate, Meshech and Tubal, both of which can be located as tribal regions that once existed in what we now call the nation of Turkey.

            And, as though this were not enough, the Lord continued to outline the land of Gog by including Gomer and the house of Togarmah, both ancient regions that also existed within the borders of modern day Turkey.

            You stated that the phrase "far north" equated to Russia. This terminology is much too vague and broad.

            Consider similar phrases in other passages, "north quarters" and "north parts", Ez.38:6,15, which were also used as descriptive terms for "far north".

            An excellent example of this is found with the house of Togarmah, which is referred to as "of the north quarters", an ancient region located in the southeastern parts of Turkey.

            Knowing this, it simply does not seem possible that "far north" reached beyond the borders of Turkey.

            Your phrase "medium north" is cute, but that's about all..What one might say is that Syria and Lebanon are north of Israel, while the northern most parts would be the area just north of Syria and Lebanon, makes more senses.

            seeker
            What you say does make sense. There is a possibility that if Gog is Russia , Gog could still be the chief prince of other regions, just as Russia is the main player of the region. Russia is to the furthest north of Israel, so I personally would not exclude the possibility of Gog being Russia , but I also can't argue with your logic that Gog is the chief prince of Turkey, so I will adopt a wait and see approach on this.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seeker_truth View Post
              AlainaJ,
              Your theory is quite correct, there is a demonic prince who reigns over Gog, and should not be confused with Gog.

              The term "chief" in Ez.38:2 was not a reference to an actual man or demonic being. It was given for the purpose of identifying a future nation, whose land mass once contained two smaller ancient areas known as Meshech and Tubal.

              In Ez.39:1 the Lord states that he is against the nation of Gog, which would include the demonic prince over the nation.
              This is clarified for us in the next verse that states "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee".
              Does the Lord leave a sixth part of a demonic prince or nation? Do you see what I mean...

              seeker
              I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you here. According to Ezekiel 38, the term "chief prince" is the very same term that was used in Daniel, who lived right around the same time period as Ezekiel. When it was used then, it equated to the angel of a nation. Chief prince refers to the rank of the angel in question, and that rank was given to Gog.

              There is a reason why, even though in Ezekiel 39 Gog is destroyed, he resurfaces in Revelation 20, and in that passage, gog refers to all of the rogue nations that atacked Jerusalem at the final day.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by third hero View Post
                I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you here. According to Ezekiel 38, the term "chief prince" is the very same term that was used in Daniel, who lived right around the same time period as Ezekiel. When it was used then, it equated to the angel of a nation. Chief prince refers to the rank of the angel in question, and that rank was given to Gog.
                third hero, You need to check the term 'prince' in the Hebraic.

                In Dan. 10:13, 20, 21, & 21:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is sar; head, official, captain

                In Ez. 38:2, 3, & 39:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is nasi; lifted up, exalted

                A demonic or angelic being is never lifted up or exalted..They can have a rank as a head or leader, official or captain.

                This is why I said not to confuse a demonic being that rules over Gog, with the nation of Gog.


                seeker

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re-Evaluating Gog/Magog, Part One of Three

                  Ezekiel 38/39: The Vision of the Gog and Magog Invasion of Israel

                  Ezekiel 38:1-7— “The word of the Lord came to me: ‘Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them.”’”

                  Ezekiel 38:8b – “In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

                  Ezekiel 38:11 – “You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

                  The parallels here with modern Israel are astonishing, especially the comment about “unwalled villages”. That would have been unheard of in Ezekiel’s day as well as unthinkable due to the blatant security risk. What nobody of that time could have understood is that in today’s modern age of air warfare, walls are obsolete. (This is just another example of the stunning accuracy of Biblical prophecy and proof of the authenticity of the Scriptures as the Word of God.) Prophesying to Gog, Ezekiel says, “In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate.” Israel is described as “the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods.” Clearly Ezekiel was describing the Israel of today. It could not possibly have been describing Israel prior to 1948, because Israel was not scattered to the “nations” until 70 AD. When Nebuchadnezzar conquered Israel in 586 BC, he took many Jews in captivity to Babylon. They were not scattered throughout the world’s nations however, they were still contained almost entirely within the boundaries of the Babylonian empire. There was even still a significant Jewish population in the land of Israel itself, including the prophet Jeremiah. Later the Babylonian territory was conquered by Persia and then the Greeks, but the Jews were still not scattered among the “nations”. Certainly the land of Israel was not “desolate” during this time because it was still thoroughly populated. The scattering among the nations did not occur until Israel was obliterated by the Romans in 70 AD, so those who attempt to argue that this description of Israel has already been historically fulfilled are in error. Only modern Israel since 1948 could possibly fit this description.

                  Ezekiel also gives us specific names of nations that will be involved in this invasion of Israel. Listed in the order used by Ezekiel, they are Magog, Meschech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togormah, as well as “many nations with you.”


                  Is Gog Antichrist?


                  Before we go any further however, we need to address an ongoing controversy. There is a divergence of opinion among many modern prophecy teachers regarding the identification of Gog and his coalition of nations. The majority position for the past few centuries — really ever since the Reformation — is that the invading army of nations described in Ezekiel 38-39 is not the army of Antichrist, but of another army entirely led by some other vague evil world leader. This is because of a common assumption that the Antichrist would be of European ancestry. However, a careful re-examination can lead one to a more clearly defined conclusion.


                  Thou Shalt Have No Other Gog


                  There are two specific mentions of Gog and Magog in the Bible. Gog is mentioned not only in Ezekiel but also in Revelation. Let’s look at the passage in Revelation 20:7-10:

                  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

                  Even after the earthly thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem, the Bible says that yet another army will form to attack the holy city of Jerusalem. Again, the leader of this army is called Gog and his army, Magog. Those who take the position that Gog is not the Antichrist must explain how this “Gog” and his armies return, so to speak, at least a thousand years after the first Gog. (Note: This is not to suggest that this is a “resurrection” of Gog. In fact, I would strongly disagree with such a suggestion.) This is a difficulty for those who argue that Gog and the Antichrist are not the same individual. The first “Gog and Magog” must share more than a mere name with the second “Gog and Magog” or why would the Bible give them the same name? There is a correlation between the two that extends beyond this very unusual title. Those who see Gog and the Antichrist as two separate entities must be able to explain just what similarities the Gog of Ezekiel and the Gog of Revelation bear that merits them both carrying the same name. So far I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.

                  Actually, in order to understand who Revelation 20’s Gog is, all one must really do is take a look at who Antichrist is. Antichrist, quite simply, is the closest Satan can get to creating the “devil incarnate”. There are actually passages of Scripture that shift from speaking of Satan to speaking of the Antichrist seamlessly as if they are one and the same, such as Isaiah 14. And as we find in Revelation 13 and 17, Satan will even share his worship with Antichrist. Simply stated, Antichrist is Satan’s puppet that he will use to attack Jerusalem. And in Revelation 20, Gog is also Satan’s puppet that will serve the very same purpose, trying to wipe out Israel and as a consequence, God’s kingdom. In terms of both role and function, Antichrist and the Gog of Revelation are essentially the same. Even as Satan will raise up a man to carry out his work in the Tribulation, so will Satan also raise up another man to carry out his final rebellion against God one more time at the end of the Millennium. Both times, the leader of Satan’s rebellion against Jerusalem is referred to as Gog and his army is called Magog. Why should we view the basic nature of the first Gog as being any different than the second? Those who view Ezekiel’s Gog as different from Antichrist find themselves at a loss to provide any explanation on this matter.


                  Spoken Of By the Former Prophets


                  Consider this second point carefully, for it is essential. Ezekiel says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:

                  This is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.’” —Ezekiel 38:17

                  The question must be asked then, if Gog is spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel but Gog is not the Antichrist, then where are these references? One will be very hard pressed to find any. In fact, I have yet to see a single treatment of this subject by those who claim that Gog is not the Antichrist. If, however, we take the position that Gog is Antichrist, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about him and his invading army throughout the prophets.
                  ----------------------------------------------
                  When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re-Evaluating Gog/Magog Part Two of Three

                    The Description of Gog’s Defeat


                    There is another strong reason to equate Gog with the Antichrist. It is because the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and his armies are strikingly similar to the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies in Revelation and Zechariah. For example:

                    I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his fellow. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. ——Ezekiel 38:22; 39:3-6

                    Similarly in Revelation, concerning the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies, we read:

                    Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” —Revelation 19:11-21

                    It is interesting to note that in both passages, a feast is prepared for the scavenging birds to feast on the flesh of the dead from the fallen armies. In both passages, we also read about the sword that God will bring against the attacking armies and their leaders. The most reasonable conclusion would seem to be that we have two descriptions of one event each from slightly, though very similar perspectives. Ezekiel describes this terrible event from one angle while Revelation describes it from another.

                    In addition, look at Ezekiel 39:18a – “You [the carrion birds] will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth” This reference to the “princes of the earth” makes no sense if Gog is only an isolated Russian ruler doomed to immediate destruction. A person who believes that Antichrist and Gog are different people would have to assume that the nations in the list of invaders were being referenced here, so why would the birds be eating the princes of the earth? Would it not be only the princes of the nations listed by Ezekiel? But if Gog is the Antichrist, it makes perfect sense. It is because by the time this “great supper of God Almighty” takes place, the invaders of Gog/Magog will have been joined by the forces of Armageddon so the “princes of the earth” will indeed be present for this to be fulfilled precisely as described in the Bible.

                    In addition, notice one other detail from Zechariah 14:13 – “On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

                    It is commonly agreed by most students of Biblical prophecy that Zechariah 14 is describing the Second Coming, because it mentions numerous details that could only be true of the Second Coming, including the famous description of the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives. Here in verse 13 of that chapter we see in the underlined portion that one of the means of the destruction of the Antichrist’s armies will be them fighting against each other. Notice this similar description from Ezekiel 38:21 – “Every man's sword will be against his fellow.” There are too many parallels between the destruction of the two armies to dismiss them as being two separate armies.


                    The Result of Gog’s Defeat


                    Another important reason to see Gog as the Antichrist is because the results of Gog’s destruction are things that may only take place after Christ has returned. After describing Gog’s destruction, God declares:

                    “I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.” —Ezekiel 38:21-23; 39:6-8

                    God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog, both the Gentile nations and Israel will know that He is God. No longer will His name be profaned. This description could not possibly be applied to some earlier invasion that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then spend years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process. That does not sound like a world where “the nations know that I am the Lord” and God’s name is no longer “profaned”. The description of what will take place after Gog’s destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies.

                    A person arguing that Gog is not the Antichrist must answer this question: Why would God allow the Antichrist or anyone else to persecute Israel after He has “gathered them to Himself” in Ezekiel 39:27-28? If Gog isn’t the Antichrist, then the Antichrist will be allowed to persecute Israel after God had “gathered Israel to Himself”.

                    Beyond this, we also read that after the destruction of Gog, the people of Israel will burn the weapons of war that have been scattered on the battle field:

                    “Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them”, declares the Sovereign Lord. —Ezekiel 39:9-10

                    Such an event of course — the burning of weapons — would not take place unless the world was a place where weapons were no longer needed and where enemies no longer existed. As such, this passage is also highly reminiscent of the Prophet Micah’s descriptions of the Millennium:

                    “He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. —Micah 4:3

                    It seems very far fetched that an Israel who has just survived one of the largest invasions in their history (if not THE largest) would immediately begin disposing of all the weapons by burning them unless there was a very compelling reason to believe them to be no longer needed, such as Christ being present on his throne in Jerusalem to protect them. In the aftermath of such an invasion occurring prior to the Tribulation it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine Israel simply destroying such a cache of weapons when they could very reasonably expect to need them for their own use against further aggression in the light of such events. In such circumstances, wouldn’t Israel be far more likely to stockpile the weapons for their own future use?


                    A Great Earthquake


                    Another similarity between the destruction of Gog and the Antichrist is that in both cases, at the time of their destruction there is a great earthquake that occurs. This is seen in several prophetic passages. The description in Ezekiel is quite extreme:

                    “In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. — Ezekiel 38:19-20

                    In a very similar fashion, the Book for Revelation also describes a great earthquake as the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:

                    “Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since the human race has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. —Revelation 16:18-20

                    The original Hebrew word that is translated as “earthquake” at the beginning of the Ezekial quote is “raash”. Then when we are told that the people “tremble”, it is the same Hebrew word, “raash”. It is clear from this that people are not merely “trembling” out of fear as is sometimes argued, but that they are “trembling” in the midst of a great “trembling” or earthquake.

                    Note these important details in the Ezekiel quote: Every creature on earth, including ALL humans on earth shake at the presence of God. Then after all things on earth shake the mountains are thrown down and every wall falls down. It is impossible to find other places in Scripture where the mountains are thrown down. Those who would argue that these are not the same event must demonstrate where the destruction of the mountains occurs prior to the end of the Tribulation anywhere in Scripture. It is true that the Ezekiel passage specifies that there will be an earthquake in Israel, but it seems quite likely that, although this earthquake could very possibly start in Israel, it would certainly expand beyond the boundaries of that tiny nation. It seems quite impossible for an earthquake that knocks over mountains and cliffs to be restricted solely to Israel. In fact, Ezekiel even specifies that “the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth” are in this earthquake. Clearly it cannot be restricted to only Israel but rather, the entire planet is affected by this event.

                    Beyond a great earthquake, there is also the similarity of great hailstones that are said to rain on the armies of both Gog and the Antichrist:

                    “I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.” — Ezekiel 38:22

                    “From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.” —Revelation 16:21

                    So the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and the destruction of Antichrist are so similar that it is difficult for anyone to ignore. However, there is no doubt that despite this evidence, some will still have some arguments that they must still be separate individuals. So before we move on, let’s address some of these arguments against identifying Gog with the Antichrist.
                    ----------------------------------------------
                    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re-Evaluating Gog/Magog, Part Three of Three

                      Arguments Against Gog as the Antichrist


                      There are two common arguments used against the idea that Gog and Antichrist are the same person. The first argument is that Gog cannot be Antichrist because Gog is killed by Christ, while the Antichrist is not killed but rather is thrown alive into the lake of fire. The two passages cited are the following:

                      On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there.” – Ezekiel 39:11

                      “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” —Revelation 19:20

                      However at two other places in Scripture we read that the Antichrist will indeed be physically killed:

                      “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:8

                      “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. — Daniel 7:11

                      All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” – Isaiah 14:11

                      You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit, like a corpse trampled underfoot.” – Isaiah 14:19

                      Apparently, the Antichrist will be physically killed by Jesus. The description of the Antichrist and the False Prophet being thrown “alive” into hell is a description of the final judgment against the Antichrist after this. The point of Revelation 19:20 is that the Antichrist and the False Prophet are not even permitted the “luxury” of the Great White Throne judgment. Their evil is apparently so pronounced that they go straight to the Lake of Fire, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

                      Notice Isaiah 14’s description of the final condition of the Antichrist: “Maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Does that not sound like a decaying corpse? However, some will point out that Jesus described Hell as a place where “the worm never dies”, so Isaiah 14:19 clarifies it even further for us: “You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword.” How could this man be “cast out of his tomb” and “covered with the slain” unless there is a body present for these things to happen to?

                      In addition, how exactly is one “cast alive” into the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't a physical body be destroyed immediately? A physical body wouldn't survive more than a few minutes of fire, not to mention eternity. Just because Nicolai Carpathia (the Antichrist of the “Left Behind” series) was physically put "alive" into the Lake of Fire doesn't mean that's how it will actually happen. That was only Tim LaHaye's and Jerry Jenkins' fictional opinion. Rather, it seems that the intent is that this man's evil will be so pronounced that he won't even be given the chance of facing the Great White Throne judgment. Some would even argue that he really was alive once before, actually died (and went to “hell” on that occasion) and has consequently no option left but to go straight to the Lake of Fire. This would go along with the often-suggested theory that the Antichrist will be killed and come back to life as is described in Revelation chapters 13 and 17.

                      The second argument against Gog as Antichrist is based on the description of the invasion and the seemingly immediate and complete defeat of Gog and his army. Those in opposition to the notion that Gog is the Antichrist will usually argue that the description of Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be speaking of the Antichrist and his armies because a cursory reading of this passage appears to present us with the image of a supernaturally foiled attack that never really accomplishes its objectives. Because the Antichrist and his forces will occupy Israel for some time, the descriptions that we read in Ezekiel, it is argued, cannot be describing the Antichrist invasion, because the invasion of Ezekiel 38-39 appears to be stopped dead in its tracks. To address this argument, let us consider the following passage. Most will be fully familiar with it:

                      “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” — Isaiah 9:6-7

                      After reading this famous passage, let us try to imagine ourselves as a devout 1st century Jew. We read about the coming of the Messiah: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given.” If we were to read this passage in as natural a manner as possible, what would our conclusions be? What would we expect from this child? The passage certainly seems clear: He will immediately assume the leadership role as the King over the Jewish nation and people. In fact, of the increase of his government there will be no end. However, the Christian reader will read this passage and quite casually explain that there is a gap in this passage. There is what is sometimes called a telescoping, where an extended period of time is described in a condensed fashion. But are any real indicators within the Isaiah passage that would indicate this? There are not. So while the Christian has no problem seeing in this passage a two thousand year gap despite the lack of any indicators of such, somehow many cannot see that a gap of merely months or only a few years could be present in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Ezekiel 38 and 39, what we have is a specific snapshot of the invasion and eventual destruction of the Antichrist and his armies. Other snapshots are presented elsewhere in Scripture. Because the limited and temporary successes of the Antichrist are not mentioned in this passage, this in no way disqualifies this passage as referring to the same invasion that we read about in the books of Daniel, Revelation, or Zechariah, all of which pertain to the Antichrist.

                      It could also be suggested that the Ezekiel prophecy requires the earthquake to take place immediately. This would be based on Ezekiel 38:19 – “In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.” The Hebrew word “yowm”, that is here translated as “time”, can also be translated as “age” or “season” among other possibilities. So the possibility is left open by the original Hebrew that there could be a gap of time between the invasion and the resultant judgment.


                      Rosh?


                      Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him…” — Ezekiel 38:2

                      Some Bible translations differ on how to interpret the portion of this verse that says, “the chief prince of.” In the original Hebrew, the word translated in the above example as “chief prince” is “rosh.” While “rosh” probably means “prince,” or “head,” some argue that it should be treated as a proper noun, “Rosh”, referring to the name of a place.

                      Well-known American prophecy teacher Mark Hitchcock has examined this issue in his book Iran: The Coming Crisis. There Hitchcock accurately points out that the Septuagint—a first century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament—as well as Wilhelm Gesenius, one of the most respected Hebrew scholars of modern times, have both chosen to translate this word “Rosh” as a proper noun. This is indeed enough to give one cause to consider the possibility. However, it is the conclusion of those who choose this translation that need to be challenged. Those who feel as though Rosh is a place, most often use this word to find Russia here as one of the invading nations. This opinion is also supported by the fact that Ezekiel specifically says that Gog would come from the “far north”. And indeed, Russia is perfectly north of Israel. Nevertheless, there are some serious problems with including modern Russia in Ezekiel’s grouping of nations. While Hitchcock points out that there are various mentions of a people whose name bears similarities to Rosh found in many ancient sources, there is actually almost no real knowledge as to specifically where these people may have lived in Ezekiel’s day. The only real information that Hitchcock provides is summed up in the following fairly vague statement: “when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy, several bands of the Rosh people lived in an area to the north of the Black Sea.” However, according to Bible scholar James D. Price, in an article in the Grace Theological Journal, Rosh “was a well-known land in antiquity on the banks of the Tigris river, bordering on Elam and Ellipi,” in the far western part of modern Iran. (James D. Price, “Rosh: An Ancient Land Known to Ezekiel,” Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1, 1985, p. 69.)

                      So let’s assume that this is true—namely that several “bands” of people known by the name of “Rosh” did live in either the far western portion of Iran or in “an area to the north of the Black Sea”. What does this leave us with? The approach that we are taking here—and which Hitchcock claims to take as well—is that these ancient names provide us only with geographic locations. We then may look at the regions mentioned and include these in the list of regions that will be part of the coming Antichrist Empire. However, what we reject—and again what Hitchcock claims to reject as well—is that we should find in these names particular bloodlines and ethnicities and trace them to their modern day ancestors. You can imagine how difficult this would quickly become. So even if we agreed that Rosh were referring to “an area to the north of the Black Sea”, we are at best left with a very small portion of Russia (roughly 5%) extending from Dagestan and Georgia through Chechnya and northeast to the Ukraine. There may be some credence to this notion in that these portions of Russia are predominantly Muslim. Nevertheless, to use such a small source of information to include all the other 95% of Russia here is to drastically exaggerate the findings.

                      Admittedly, in light of several political developments such as various military and nuclear agreements that have recently taken place between Russia and Iran, this may be very tempting to do. However, this approach is not only inconsistent, but may also even be irresponsible. Either one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead one to modern regions, or one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead to ethnic peoples, but one cannot simply switch from one approach to the other as it suits one’s particular slant on prophecy to fit today’s newspaper headlines.

                      Now, having examined the reasons to consider Rosh as a proper name, let us now also consider the reasons not to see Rosh as proper name: The Hebrew word “rosh” is used nearly six hundred other times in the Bible and is each time interpreted as meaning “head, chief, top, best” or something similar. Why then of the nearly six hundred times in the Bible would we make only one exception and translate it here as a proper noun? This really makes little sense. The “Rosh” here in Ezekiel is actually the same “Rosh” that we find in the name “Rosh Hashanah” – “The chief day of the year” - the Jewish New Year. Also, consider this: of the eight nations mentioned, all except one are grandsons of Noah and are mentioned in what is known as “the Table of Nations” in Genesis 10. The other nation is Persia. Persia however was a very well known nation in Ezekiel’s day. It was the head of the fast-growing Medo-Persian Empire that later ruled the entire Middle East, including Babylon where Ezekiel lived at the time he wrote his book. Now juxtapose this to Russia, which didn’t even exist in Ezekiel’s day and wouldn’t for several more centuries. To simply attempt to toss “Rosh” into the list here—an alleged name that is neither a descendant of Noah nor a well-known nation of that day certainly seems out of place. As Bible scholar Dr. Merrill F. Unger admits, “Linguistic evidence for the equation [of Rosh with Russia] is confessedly only presumptive.” During the cold war, of course, this opinion was a popular one. The reasoning of many was that because Russia was the “head” of the atheistic Soviet Union, surely such an anti-God empire was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. But we must be very careful not to read our assumptions or modern events into Scripture. We must allow Scripture to speak for itself. Unfortunately, many Bible teachers still seem to cling to this interpretation. The notion that Russia is specifically mentioned here in Ezekiel seems to be doubtful and again, even if true, leads us not to Russia but only to a relatively small southern portion of Russia which today is predominately Islamic.


                      Conclusion


                      So to sum up, Gog/Antichrist will invade Israel at the Tribulation’s midpoint with an army consisting of Magog, Meschech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togormah, as well as “many nations” from the area around Israel. After an occupation of almost 3˝ years, Christ will return and destroy them all. It should be pointed out that there will be a larger invasion force that Gog/Antichrist will summon shortly before the 2nd Coming to reinforce the other forces from the initial invasion. These reinforcements will gather at Armageddon in fulfillment of the Armageddon prophecies. The Bible is not clear what reason the Antichrist gives for calling for these reinforcements, only that they are called for. Every nation in the world will respond (including, tragically, the USA or whatever is left of it at that point) and will subsequently be caught in the destruction unleashed by Christ at His 2nd Coming.

                      Now, I realize that several of you will reject this simply because "That's not what I always heard before." Please try to remember that people used to say the same thing about the world being round instead of being flat. If you can actually point out flaws in these suggestions, by all means please do so. But if you are going to reject it simply because you "can't see it", then it will be difficult to give your point of view any serious consideration.
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                      When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seeker_truth View Post
                        third hero, You need to check the term 'prince' in the Hebraic.

                        In Dan. 10:13, 20, 21, & 21:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is sar; head, official, captain

                        In Ez. 38:2, 3, & 39:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is nasi; lifted up, exalted

                        A demonic or angelic being is never lifted up or exalted..They can have a rank as a head or leader, official or captain.

                        This is why I said not to confuse a demonic being that rules over Gog, with the nation of Gog.

                        seeker
                        What are demons but fallen angels?

                        The only angel that I know of that lost his initial rank and name was Satan. The other named angels still have their ranks, like the prince of Persia, the chief prince of Israel, and the chief prince of Magog.

                        Also, one has to take into account the fact that the angels, heaven, and God all existed long before this earth did. There are some speculation that the planet existed before creation, and it was destroyed prior to Genesis. (Again, speculation, not fact).

                        Therefore, it is not demons who are exalted, but angels are, even before they choose to lose their esteemed status in order to follow after Satan.

                        Gog, like Michael, is a chief prince of a nation. For Michael, it's Israel. For Gog, it's Magog. Magog is the nation, and not Gog, the chief prince of that nation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                          Thou Shalt Have No Other Gog
                          Now that's a riot! I see that you have been studying a little bit more than the last time that we conversed about this subject, and I must say, I enjoyed all of it! Especially the highlighted portion.

                          The only thing I would argue with you about is the idea that the splitting of the Mount of Olives occurs at the time of the Lord's return, but that is neither here or there, and it is definitely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

                          In short, I agree with your total conclusion, and I would like to add that Gog is not only synonymous to the Beast (which most of you call the Antichrist), but I would say that Gog is the Spirit of the Beast, the force that Satan will use to attack God.

                          On top of that, I still hold to the view that Gog is a fallen Angel, and this one, being of the same class as Michael, is powerful enough to be used by Satan to attack God with the means to overthrow Him. (Although in truth, Gog is not that powerful.)

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                          • #14
                            I for one came to the conclusion that Gog/Magog was Armageddon due to the fact that the Lord will no longer hide his face from Israel and Israel will know the Lord their God from that day forward....

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cross+tie View Post
                              I for one came to the conclusion that Gog/Magog was Armageddon due to the fact that the Lord will no longer hide his face from Israel and Israel will know the Lord their God from that day forward....
                              Yep.
                              ----------------------------------------------
                              When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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