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Who Are The Millenium Mortals?

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  • Discussion Who Are The Millenium Mortals?

    During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive.

    DISCUSSION: What are your objections to this, if any, or what are your own views?

    REV 21:25 And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):
    REV 21:26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:
    REV 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    REV 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right `to come' to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
    REV 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

    Often pre-tribbers divide believers into pre-trib (raptured) believers and then tribulation saints, believing the tribulation saints are the mortal survivors to go into the millenium , however we just see two divisions here , those that can enter the city and the ungodly who cannot.


    Here we see a millenium scenario , where God dwells in Israel:
    ZECH 8:3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain.
    ZECH 8:4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
    ZECH 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
    ZECH 8:6 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts.

    ZECH 8:20 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: `It shall' yet `come to pass', that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities;
    ZECH 8:21 and the inhabitants of one `city' shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also.
    ZECH 8:22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah.
    ZECH 8:23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days `it shall come to pass', that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

    Who do you think are the nations that dwell on earth during the millenium but don't really know God , aren't blessed by God so that they tend to see the Jews as having a special blessing? Why are these Jews mortal (old men in the streets) when the first resurrection has already occurred?

    If you read Zechariah 14, the context is millenial:
    16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

    These seem to be survivors who are still sometimes disobedient to God (ungodly survivors) , otherwise why would God threaten them with no rain if there is disobedience?

    Isaiah 65:
    17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    Who are these accursed people who don't live beyond 100 years while living during a period of great blessing? If they are accursed surely they are the ungodly?

    Isaiah
    2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

    Who are these people who don't know the ways of God and want to go to Israel to learn? Who are the nations that will be rebuked and who beat their swords into plowshares?
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 20th 2008, 09:25 AM. Reason: I nearly always edit

  • #2
    Durbandude,
    I would like to introduce to you the seventh chapter of Daniel. In it, there s undeniable proof that there are survivors after the return of the Lord.


    The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. -Daniel 7:4-8

    Now, compare these verses to the next ones here:

    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. -Revelation 13:1-5

    Now, we find that the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is different from the other beasts that were before it. We also find that the beast in Revelation 13 has all of the characteristics of all four of the beasts in Daniel 7. Also, the little horn, like the beast in Revelation, speaks great things, and blasphemies against God. The similarities show me that there may possibly be a link, something that says to me: Daniel 7 is the foretelling of the events in Revelation 13-20.

    There is nore evidence, and it is found in the same chapters that we are comparing. But that is not the reason why I have brought this chapter up. If you wantto see the entire corelation between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13-20, then read both.

    This is why I brought this up. Check out verses 11-12. When these verses come about, the Ancient of Days is present and a judgment id handed down. Before Him were myriads of people, "ten thousand times ten thousand" to be exact. Then the judgment is handed down. Here is the result.

    I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. -Daniel 7:11-12

    According to this judgment, the lives of the rest of the beasts were prolonged for a season. This means that when this judgment is sent down, the fourth beast is destroyed, and the little horn's fate is the burning flame. The rest are permitted to live for a while.

    IS this the same as the time of the Lord's return? Well, let's look at the next verses.

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. -Verses 13-14

    Now, in this vision, we find the Ancient of Days passing down judgment to the "ten thousand times ten thousand", and "they" brought the "son of Man" before the Ancient of Days. The Ancient one then gives Him dominion over all of the earth. Doesn't this look familiar?

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:30-31

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. -Revelation 19:11-15

    And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. -Revelation 19:19-20

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:4-8

    Still not convincing? Well let's see some other portions of Daniel 7.

    And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. -Daniel 7:20-22


    Oh look! The saints are given the Kingdom, and they rule the world with Lord Jesus, after the little horn wages war against them and prevails for a little while.

    "Hey wait!" Says the opposition. Where does it say that the beast in Revelation 13 wages war against the saints? Well, it says it right....


    ...here
    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. -Revelation 13:7

    It appears that we have a match! Daniel 7 is the first telling of Revelation 13-20.

    Since that is the case, then is there going to be survivors of the second coming that will be mortals? The answer is yes. In Daniel 7:12, the remnant of the beast will lose their authority, but will be allowed to live for a while longer. In Revelation 20, after Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years, he goes about to deceive the nations once again. One can not deceive what is not there. What are those nations? Well, they can not be the tribulation saints, since the Tibulation saints do not have to fear the second death, or the Lake of Fire, which we find at the end of chapter 20 is where the Beast and the False prophet were, those who beheaded the Tibulation saints and led the world against God.

    Bolster that with Matthew 25:31-32

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

    Now, according to these verses, Lord Jesus, when He comes in glory, which in chapter 24 all the tribes of the earth will see with their own eyes, then he shall sit upon His throne, and judge the nations. According to this passage, He judges those who he deems worthy of living, and those who will be tossed into the Lake with their masters the beast and the false prophet. If you read further into that chapter, those hwo treated His people kindly will be spared, while the rest are hurled into the Lake of Fire.

    All of this adds up to one thing. There will be survivors after the Lord returns.

    (BTW, In Zechariah 14, the remnant of the nations will be required to send delegations to Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings during the feast of tabernacles, further proving that there has to be survivors of the return of the Lord who will not be counted as part of the Tribulation Saints.)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      Since that is the case, then is there going to be survivors of the second coming that will be mortals? The answer is yes. In Daniel 7:12, the remnant of the beast will lose their authority, but will be allowed to live for a while longer. In Revelation 20, after Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years, he goes about to deceive the nations once again. One can not deceive what is not there. What are those nations? Well, they can not be the tribulation saints, since the Tibulation saints do not have to fear the second death, or the Lake of Fire, which we find at the end of chapter 20 is where the Beast and the False prophet were, those who beheaded the Tibulation saints and led the world against God.
      Thanks for giving more scripture, yes I've always said Daniel 7 ties in with the beast of Revelation even though there are subtle differences.

      Referring to the quote above , this is an interesting argument , I don't know then why some people would believe the "tribulation saints" are the ones who survive as mortals into the millenium when these same tribulation saints are told they don't have to fear the second death, yet the mortal survivors are the ones who will be deceived and experience the second death.

      Those who separate the tribulation saints from other saints should have a consistent argument.

      Comment


      • #4
        Those that are against Christ in the millenium, number the sand of the sea...billions of people no doubt, weve never been this close.
        Yet Christ comes like it was in Noahs day, when all those against God were destroyed...with no trace.
        So the millenium can only be the gospel age...blessed are those who partake..in belief...of the first ressurection...the flood../ second death wont hurt them.

        When Jesus said that his coming would be like it was in the days of Noah, he meant that only those on the ark ,at his coming , would see the new world.

        Which is why Peter looked to this;



        Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
        12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
        13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


        14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
        15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
        16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
          Those that are against Christ in the millenium, number the sand of the sea...billions of people no doubt, weve never been this close.
          Yet Christ comes like it was in Noahs day, when all those against God were destroyed...with no trace.
          So the millenium can only be the gospel age...blessed are those who partake..in belief...of the first ressurection...the flood../ second death wont hurt them.

          When Jesus said that his coming would be like it was in the days of Noah, he meant that only those on the ark ,at his coming , would see the new world.

          Which is why Peter looked to this;

          Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
          12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
          13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

          .
          jeffweeder , the context of the verses in the opening post show that there will be a period of absolute peace under the direct rule of Jesus, during a period when the New Jerusalem will exist. This is a period when Jesus rules the nations with an iron rod, and all nations have to be obedient or will be punished.

          This scenario does not fit in with the current period at all , at the moment we don't have peace on earth with most mortals living beyond 100 years and all the nations having respect for God, and Israel being at the forefront of earth. I still dont know how this period of peace on earth with mortals existing at the same time fits into amillenial theology , because the theme is very strong in the old testament with hundreds of verses describing this period of peace on earth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
            During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive.
            Paul says they shall not escape. They will not survive. None of them.

            1 Thess 5
            1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
            3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

            This is who he is talking about:

            2 Thess 1
            7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
            8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

            You have some who "know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" surviving His coming. Why doesn't Paul mention that? He doesn't allow for any exceptions anywhere that I can see.

            Neither does Jesus:

            Luke 17
            26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
            27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
            28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
            29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
            30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

            All unbelievers were killed in the days of Noah and Lot and so it will be when Christ returns. All who do not know God or obey the gospel of Christ will be killed. No exceptions. Unlike the passages you bring up, these passages clearly refer to what happens at the second coming of Christ. After He comes, all believers will have immortal bodies and all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. There is no third group of mortal unbelieving survivors.

            There is further evidence to consider. When does Jesus return? At the end of the age, right? Look what it says about the end of the age (world):

            Matt 13
            36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
            38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
            39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
            40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
            41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
            42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
            43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

            Jesus returns at the end of the age. What else happens at that time? The tares, which refer to unbelievers, are ALL gathered and are cast into a furnace of fire. This is no doubt a reference to the lake of fire. It doesn't say anyone survives. What about believers? We know from 1 Cor 15:51-54 that we will all be changed and have immortal bodies when Christ returns. Then we will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of (our) Father". Again, this happens at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. Not a thousand years later.

            This parable teaches the same thing:

            Matt 13
            47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
            48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
            49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
            50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

            When Christ returns at the end of the age, all the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and all people will be gathered for judgment (Matt 25:31-46). Then everyone will be separated with believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34) that will be delivered to Him when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:23-24) and unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, 50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15).

            Comment


            • #7
              John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.

              The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

              Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

              Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

              In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
              61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
              61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
              61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
              61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

              In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
              24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
              24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
              ......................
              24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
              24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
              24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
              24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

              Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

              John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.

              When Christ returns at the end of the age, all the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and all people will be gathered for judgment (Matt 25:31-46). Then everyone will be separated with believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34) that will be delivered to Him when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:23-24) and unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, 50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15
              Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
              20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
              20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
              20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
              20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
              but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

              Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second coming
              Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 21st 2008, 11:03 AM. Reason: I always edit

              Comment


              • #8
                Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.
                So does 2 thess 1...they suffer eternal seperation on the day he comes to be Glorified in his saints.


                There is a time of grace for the gentiles to come in, and its called the Millenium.

                How can you not tell me that you have not already passed from death to life, and the day of judgement cannot hurt you..because of what Jesus has already done for you?

                You need not experience a further ressurection, to protect you from the second death, but you have that assurance now...dont you?

                You said it yourself, that Jesus is coming to seperate....His coming will judge everyone according to their deeds.

                The word he spoke 2000 years ago will judge them when he appears the last day.. Jn 12
                But he will raise us that last day, because we believed the testamony, and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                God has fixed a day....He is patient now, not willing that any reject the message that his son Jesus hath given to us.
                Today is the day to embrace the Gospel of Jesus, cause those who reject it will will find themseves in 2 thess 1 eternally seperated from his presence, but we who have believed and held on tightly, will be raptured in his glory.

                There is no-one left when the lord comes as it was in Noahs day, but those who recieve Jesus are worthy, and we marvel and enjoy the New world , that he has gone to prepare for us...and brings with him
                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                  So does 2 thess 1...they suffer eternal seperation on the day he comes to be Glorified in his saints.


                  There is a time of grace for the gentiles to come in, and its called the Millenium.

                  How can you not tell me that you have not already passed from death to life, and the day of judgement cannot hurt you..because of what Jesus has already done for you?

                  You need not experience a further ressurection, to protect you from the second death, but you have that assurance now...dont you?

                  You said it yourself, that Jesus is coming to seperate....His coming will judge everyone according to their deeds.

                  The word he spoke 2000 years ago will judge them when he appears the last day.. Jn 12
                  But he will raise us that last day, because we believed the testamony, and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                  God has fixed a day....He is patient now, not willing that any reject the message that his son Jesus hath given to us.
                  Today is the day to embrace the Gospel of Jesus, cause those who reject it will will find themseves in 2 thess 1 eternally seperated from his presence, but we who have believed and held on tightly, will be raptured in his glory.

                  There is no-one left when the lord comes as it was in Noahs day, but those who recieve Jesus are worthy, and we marvel and enjoy the New world , that he has gone to prepare for us...and brings with him
                  Are you saying that all the references in the OP are happening now?

                  eg 1) about mortals being considered young if they die at 100 years old (Isaiah 65 20)
                  2) all nations travel to Jerusalem otherwise there is no rain
                  3) Isaiah 2:4 period where there is no more war

                  There are hundreds and maybe thousands of verses about his period , where does this period of absolute physical peace of Israel and Israel being more blessed than other nations fit into your theology?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.
                    Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.

                    The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

                    Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

                    Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

                    In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
                    61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
                    61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
                    61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
                    61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

                    In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
                    24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
                    24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
                    ......................
                    24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                    24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                    24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
                    24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                    Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

                    John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.
                    The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible.


                    Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
                    20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
                    20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                    20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                    20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
                    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                    Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second coming
                    No, it does not support your view. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the age? Is that not implied in Matthew 24:3?

                    3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

                    The Greek word for "world" there is "aion" and it is probably better translated as "age". The same word is used in the Matthew 13 passages. Therefore, both Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the very same end of the age.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by John146 View Post
                      Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.

                      The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible.

                      No, it does not support your view. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the age? Is that not implied in Matthew 24:3?

                      3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

                      The Greek word for "world" there is "aion" and it is probably better translated as "age". The same word is used in the Matthew 13 passages. Therefore, both Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the very same end of the age.
                      Jesus speaks of:
                      Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age]to come

                      And Paul says:

                      Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John146 View Post
                        Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.
                        Hmm? Looks like a consistent theme here ...avoiding the opening post , joking. So your view on those verses is highly debatable? If those verses are not millenial according to you, where do they fit in?

                        The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible
                        Interesting thatyou didn't comment on my whole point of progressive fulfilment , I wonder if you missed my point.

                        I definitely agree that the day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives, no argument there. I already explained why some verses appear to contradict Revelation 20 , sometimes the bible says events are together when really they are thousands of years apart. I listed four separate events to prove my point. There are many verses like this in the bible , about various different events. We can debate each verse if you like, at least some of them will be obvious to you that prophecies are progressively fulfilled. You still haven't given me your version of Rev 20 , and Rev 20 contradicts your view on 2 Peter 3:10-12. I've explained why some verses seem to contradict eachother, yet I haven't heard your explanation on how Rev 20 fits into 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matt 24 ... or Matt 13.
                        Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 22nd 2008, 06:31 AM. Reason: just spelling, that's all

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.

                          The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

                          Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

                          Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

                          In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
                          61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
                          61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
                          61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
                          61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

                          In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
                          24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
                          24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
                          ......................
                          24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                          24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                          24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
                          24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                          Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

                          John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.



                          Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
                          20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
                          20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                          20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
                          20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
                          but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                          Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second coming
                          But the first resurrection was Christ's. Salvation is found in the victory that was wrought over the grave. Without Christ's resurrection there is no hope. Our part in that triumph ensures our victory over eternal punishment (the second death).
                          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                          WPM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No Mortals

                            At the seventh trump when Jesus returns to earth with His angels. all human beings will be turned in to spiritual bodies.
                            God Bless,
                            Spiritual Treasureman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wpm View Post
                              But the first resurrection was Christ's. Salvation is found in the victory that was wrought over the grave. Without Christ's resurrection there is no hope. Our part in that triumph ensures our victory over eternal punishment (the second death).
                              In the context of Rev 20 , there is a resurrection of the saved and then a 1000 year period and then the resurrection of the unrighteous.

                              So calling Christ's resurrection the "first resurrection" after you have just read that "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" ..."this is the first resurrection" doesn't make any sense to me.


                              So far I have heard a few posts that seem to be hinting that for Christians our first resurrection was with Christ because we have eternal life. The bible makes it clear that we only receive that eternal life at salvation, which happens at different moments for each of us. The resurrection is an event that involves all the believers simultaneously. Thus there are 3 separate events:

                              1) Jesus crucifixion, and resurrection, which open the way of salvation
                              2) Our personal salvation, us choosing to believe, becoming believers, receiving our eternal destiny
                              3) The physical resurrection

                              All three events are separate , it would be incorrect to start combining any of these events.
                              Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 23rd 2008, 07:33 AM. Reason: I always edit

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