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Overview of Revelation 14-22

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  • Overview of Revelation 14-22

    One of the troubles with Revelation study is that there are competing outlines and structures and timelines and whatnot, in addition to the chapters.

    The chapters are one of the main problems here. The chapters are helpful for referencing, however, the length of any given chapter section and/or headings, are mistakenly perceived as the begin and end of the topics.

    I have already lined up the previous chapters pretty well, but the premil vs amil debate has challenged me to outline the structure of the final chapters. I was able to identify 7 distinct sections once I ignored the chapter numbers.

    There are exactly 7 descriptions of heaven merging with earth. In other words, John sees 7 visions of heaven one following the other, which are each a new description of the same thing. I ask that regardless of your viewpoint on the millennium to evaluate these sections as a structure to the book without analyzing the imagery.


    Each section starts with a description of Christ's appearance, and of heaven affecting earth, and describes the effect. The sections are as follows:

    1) Rev 14:1-13 -CHRIST AS LAMB [contrasting 2 citizenships]

    2) Rev 14:14-20 -CHRIST AS CROWNED SON OF MAN [contrasting 2 crops]

    3) Rev 15 to 17 -CHRIST AS A TABERNACLE OF WITNESS [the 7 bowls of wrath, +angelic interpretation, +the forecast of the whore's death.]

    4) Rev 18 - 19:10 -CHRIST AS A GLORIOUS LIGHT [contrast of lament and celebration -- Announcement of the marriage of the lamb]

    5) Rev 19:11-19:20 -CHRIST AS A WARRIOR HORSEMAN [the final battle outcome, victory over the world (beast)]

    6) Rev 20:1-20:10, -CHRIST AS JAILER OF SATAN [Satan defeated, Saints raised, beast burned]

    7) Rev 20:11-22:5, CHRIST AS THE ULTIMATE JUDGE [Judgement, New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem, Wedding supper of the Lamb]


    This exercise was hard for me, and I am still unsure of an exact structure of Revelation 20. In particular, the depiction of the Great White throne appears to begin along with the millenium, rather than its end, as I previously thought .

    (as far as amil, no, the little season is still after a millennial period)
    Last edited by Aijalon; Nov 14 2015, 04:04 AM.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  • #2
    Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

    I updated the list to include the basic description of CHrist in each section. Honestly a little disappointed no one is poking holes in this yet.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

      Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
      I updated the list to include the basic description of CHrist in each section. Honestly a little disappointed no one is poking holes in this yet.
      Haven't had time to digest what you are suggesting. I think you are wobbly about Rev 20 - 22, but will try to consider it better and respond appropriately.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

        So then, ahem.... If you will.

        The 7 different depictions of Christ then, each detail, in parallel fashion, the millennium (defined as millennium in the 6th depiction). Whether the millennium is symbolic or literal is of no consequence. The issue resides in whether you wish to accept that the visions are to be understood as one follows another in chronology, or whether they are tandem to one another (contemporary to each other).

        I have come to be very fond of the contemporary approach. In that light, this changes my viewpoint on the Great White Throne, which amils say is Christs coming, and premils say is after 1000 years of his reign. Effectively, I'm premil, but place the GWT at the start of the millennium.

        CHeers, hope that's more clear! ATTACK!
        As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

          Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
          So then, ahem.... If you will.

          The 7 different depictions of Christ then, each detail, in parallel fashion, the millennium (defined as millennium in the 6th depiction). Whether the millennium is symbolic or literal is of no consequence. The issue resides in whether you wish to accept that the visions are to be understood as one follows another in chronology, or whether they are tandem to one another (contemporary to each other).

          I have come to be very fond of the contemporary approach. In that light, this changes my viewpoint on the Great White Throne, which amils say is Christs coming, and premils say is after 1000 years of his reign. Effectively, I'm premil, but place the GWT at the start of the millennium.

          CHeers, hope that's more clear! ATTACK!
          I promised a reply and so I will but I am going to not challenge your depictions of these chapters as descriptions of Christ. I will however challenge your "contemporary" view.

          After Chapter 3 John is shown a series of visions. I consider these visions as stand alone visions with their own time lines and while there are parts of Revelation that is linear I find these conditions exist within a vision not between. Chapter 14 is a great example, consider:

          Verses 1-5 - John sees the 144,000 in heaven. We don't know exactly when but we do know it is during the trumpet plagues from previous chapter.

          Verses 6-7 - No timeline given but since the gospel is being preached we might imply it is during the same period.

          Verse 8 - A statement with no timeline

          Verses 9-13 -clearly during the GT.

          Verses 14-16 - Rapture at the end of Tribulation.

          Verses 17-20 - gathering of nations to Armageddon where Jesus treads the wine press after the tribulation and outpouring of the bowls.

          Chapters 15 & 16 deal with the vials and the battle of Armageddon which is after the tribulation and rapture.

          Chapter 17 - stand alone vision of the great whore with no real timeline. assumed to be during the GT but if she has been riding the beast during all these kingdoms and the blood she shed over all history then the time line is much longer.

          Chapter 18 - This chapter I take as a condemnation on and represents the apostate church/religion of today and during the GT.I believe that angel is calling us "out of her" now and so this timeline is present day until AC declares himself god and proceeds to devour all religions.

          Chapter 19 - has 2 parts. First the marriage supper which I see as contemporaneous (yes I said that here) with the 7 vials, and followed by the battle of Armageddon and Christ's return to earth. Therefore the timeline is short, from the rapture till the battle (I believe it is 30 days)

          Chapter 20 - (we have discussed previously) is a continuation of chapter 19 and not a new vision. ( I believe you agree with me that chapter and verse numbers are not relevant to the text and are a modern addition to the written word.) Because this is a continuation of 19, the timeline begins immediately following the Battle of Armageddon. As I stated before I do not grasp your concept that the 1,000 years is not literal or that the GWT is before the 1,000 years. Verses 3,4,5 & 6 are clear that there is a 1,000 year reign and the rest of the dead (those not in the first resurrection) did not rise until after the GWT. Part of our difference may lie in that some of you believe the GWT is a judgement seat for all; it is not. It is for those in the 2nd resurrection only.

          Chapter 21 & 22 - again these are still continuations of from 19 & 20 and the timeline is after the 1,000 year reign and throughout eternity.

          Hope this is some of what you expected.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

            Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
            I promised a reply and so I will but I am going to not challenge your depictions of these chapters as descriptions of Christ. I will however challenge your "contemporary" view.
            thanks for taking the time.

            After Chapter 3 John is shown a series of visions. I consider these visions as stand alone visions with their own time lines and while there are parts of Revelation that is linear I find these conditions exist within a vision not between.
            Before I respond to the bits of chapter 14, you and I are approaching the whole book very differently. I"ll just ask you a few questions and you can respond as you have the chance.

            The Lamb alone is worthy to open the 7 seals, as far as imagery goes, the scroll cannot be read (believed to be the flying scroll from Zechariah) until the seals are un-sealed. In that light, none of the trumpets can blow until the 7 seals are all broken.

            As I see it then, 6 seals occur, the 7th seal initiates the 7 trumpets.
            the 6 trumpets occur, then the 7th trumpet initiates the 7 bowls.

            That creates 3 distinct periods of prophetic time linear to each other - presented below.

            ............ Ch 1/2/3, Christ and the 7 stars/7 letters
            ......Ch 4,Worship in heaven
            Ch 5, Lamb Exalted
            .......Ch 6, The 6 Seals
            ............Ch 7, Multitude and 144000 sealed

            [7th Seal Begins]

            ............Ch 8/9 (4 winds // 1st/2nd woe locusts and demons
            ........Ch 10a (7 thunders)
            Ch 10b-11 (little book, prophetic explanation, 7th trumpet )
            ........Ch 12a/b Woman/Dragon
            ............Ch 13a/b (Beasts vs Saints, mark)

            [7th Trumpet Begins]

            ............Ch 14a - Lamb, Zion, Martyrs
            .......Ch 14b - harvest and winepress
            ....Ch 15-16 - bowls of wrath [Ch 17 Explanation]
            CH 18:1 - lamentation vs celebration
            ....Ch 19:11 - beast defeated
            ........Ch 20 - Dragon defeated
            ............Ch 20:11 - city restored



            I would say that these sections depend on the completion of the previous section. The following verses demonstrate how one section follows the other.

            Revelation 8:1
            1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

            Revelation 11:19 - the 7th Trumpet opens the temple .... Chapter 15 (Temple opened)


            It is important to consider that in Chapters 12 and 13 the kingdom of the Beast is winning and defeating the saints, whereas in Chapters 14 and 15 and 16 the beast is being killed. The juncture at which the change happens is when the "temple" is opened. Note that the temple causes hail, and the first plague of wrath is hail. The images link to each other, we simply need to draw the lines of connection.

            Chapter 14 is a great example, consider:

            Verses 1-5 - John sees the 144,000 in heaven. We don't know exactly when but we do know it is during the trumpet plagues from previous chapter.

            Verses 6-7 - No timeline given but since the gospel is being preached we might imply it is during the same period.

            Verse 8 - A statement with no timeline

            Verses 9-13 -clearly during the GT. (it is clearly about judgement after 2nd coming, not the GT before his coming)

            Verses 14-16 - Rapture at the end of Tribulation. (you misunderstand the great tribulation as physical dying, instead of spiritual dying - when Jesus said it would be cut short or else none would be saved... saved from what? - his wrath on the wicked!)

            Verses 17-20 - gathering of nations to Armageddon where Jesus treads the wine press after the tribulation and outpouring of the bowls.
            You have some work to do to show me that the Great Tribulation hasn't already happened. Jesus told John it would happen soon, so surely it has happened or is happening.... Great War, Poverty, and pestilence. It is Great for it's ongoing nature, not it's suddenness.

            The term we call "the Great Tribulation" is simply misused and confused with the 7 year "end time". The word "tribulation" is used 45 times in the new testament, according to strict literal translation it means pressure or pressed together. Unfortunately, that word is translated in various other ways, such as "suffering" "affliction" or "persecution" or "distress". The context explains the meaning better than changing the word around. It is helpful to know where else the word is used when searching for context.

            * The word is translated as "tribulation" only 1 time in the NIV (Rev 7:14)
            * 1 time in the New Living Translation (Rev 7:14)
            * 14 times as tribulation in the Amplified
            * 16 times by the ESV
            * 17 times by the NASB
            * 19 by KJV
            * 24 by NKJV
            * 26 by Darby's
            * 35 by Young's


            How can we know whether the Great Tribulation is being refereed to as a specific 7-year time period or simply as longer ongoing time of trial?
            The answer is that it is possible to show the 6 seals in history and the shifts in society that went with them.
            The Roman Peace (White Horseman)
            Collapse of Roman Empire and Imperial war (Red Horseman)
            Economic Slavery and Feudalism (Black Horseman)
            Black Death and Viral pandemic, depopulation (Pale Horseman)
            Church Schizm (Seal 5, martyrdom accelerated)
            Space Storms and Terror (6th seal)
            As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

              Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
              The Lamb alone is worthy to open the 7 seals, as far as imagery goes, the scroll cannot be read (believed to be the flying scroll from Zechariah) until the seals are un-sealed. In that light, none of the trumpets can blow until the 7 seals are all broken.

              As I see it then, 6 seals occur, the 7th seal initiates the 7 trumpets.
              the 6 trumpets occur, then the 7th trumpet initiates the 7 bowls.

              That creates 3 distinct periods of prophetic time linear to each other - presented below.

              ............ Ch 1/2/3, Christ and the 7 stars/7 letters
              ......Ch 4,Worship in heaven
              Ch 5, Lamb Exalted
              .......Ch 6, The 6 Seals
              ............Ch 7, Multitude and 144000 sealed

              [7th Seal Begins]

              ............Ch 8/9 (4 winds // 1st/2nd woe locusts and demons
              ........Ch 10a (7 thunders)
              Ch 10b-11 (little book, prophetic explanation, 7th trumpet )
              ........Ch 12a/b Woman/Dragon
              ............Ch 13a/b (Beasts vs Saints, mark)

              [7th Trumpet Begins]

              ............Ch 14a - Lamb, Zion, Martyrs
              .......Ch 14b - harvest and winepress
              ....Ch 15-16 - bowls of wrath [Ch 17 Explanation]
              CH 18:1 - lamentation vs celebration
              ....Ch 19:11 - beast defeated
              ........Ch 20 - Dragon defeated
              ............Ch 20:11 - city restored
              An interesting mix, but you seem to have the side visions as being part of the linear vision. Further I am confused as to why you would have Ch 12a/b and Ch 13 a/b as being part of the 6 trumpets, when this is clearly after the 7th Trumpet is blown.
              Is this because you have the 7th Trumpet as being the same as the Last Trumpet?

              I would say that these sections depend on the completion of the previous section. The following verses demonstrate how one section follows the other.

              Revelation 8:1
              1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

              Revelation 11:19 - the 7th Trumpet opens the temple .... Chapter 15 (Temple opened)
              Which would suggest everything here is therefore part of the 7th trumpet.

              It is important to consider that in Chapters 12 and 13 the kingdom of the Beast is winning and defeating the saints, whereas in Chapters 14 and 15 and 16 the beast is being killed. The juncture at which the change happens is when the "temple" is opened. Note that the temple causes hail, and the first plague of wrath is hail. The images link to each other, we simply need to draw the lines of connection.
              What you aren't getting I think is that the tares are removed from the church, and so God uses what the beast does to achieve His aims. The beast wins on the physical level for the duration of 42 months, but at the same time is losing on the spiritual level as God clears away the dross from the church.
              The temple is opened in BOTH Rev 11 and Rev 15 which means that the events from 11 b to 15 are one view, and that which is expressed elsewhere as another. IOW as we move towards the very end, we find that the amount of information seen and given increases.
              We find the same in John's gospel.
              Half of John's gospel is about all Jesus' ministry, but the second half is about the last week (with very end about what comes next)
              In Revelation, half is about the witness of the church, and then the second half is about the last week (with the very end about what comes next)

              You have some work to do to show me that the Great Tribulation hasn't already happened. Jesus told John it would happen soon, so surely it has happened or is happening.... Great War, Poverty, and pestilence. It is Great for it's ongoing nature, not it's suddenness.
              The GT is when BOTH the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God is out poured. Jesus clearly tells us there is tribulation first, but that this persecution is NOT the GT. The GT is starting with the AoD (and not before), and that AoD didn't occur in 70 AD.
              We also see through the 5th seal the tribulation of the church, but that this isn't the GT. There are still more to be martyred. In fact the last woe is the GT, which coincides with the 7th Trumpet, the 42 month reign of the beast, the requirement to worship him or die etc.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                An interesting mix, but you seem to have the side visions as being part of the linear vision.
                True, there is an element of some of the visions being "to the side" but these always seem to give an explanation that ties them or other similar imagery together. They are not all alone on the side.
                Further I am confused as to why you would have Ch 12a/b and Ch 13 a/b as being part of the 6 trumpets, when this is clearly after the 7th Trumpet is blown.
                The reason for Ch 12 and 13 being within the trumpets (before the 7th) is pretty clear.

                The beast and his rising from the abyss / sea is mentioned 3 times, it is the same beast by different names.
                The Beast appears in chapter 8 as Apollyon (linked to Beasts home - the Abyss).
                Chapter 9 - (serpents)
                Chapter 10 (John given prophecy)
                The Beast appears in Chapter 11 to kill the witnesses. (Beast + Abyss)
                11, the 7th trumpet blows after this (as far as linear verses are concerned this confirms that the Beast is affiliated with the trumpets).
                The Dragon appears in Chapter 12, and he is called a "serpent"
                The Beast appears again in Chapter 13, along with a dragon in the form of a lamb. Abyss is also mentioned, in Chapter 9, and Chapter 11. These visions are referencing each other!


                Simply put, the Beast and Dragon of Chapter 12 and 13 are GRAPHICALLY linked to the previous chapters. They are in a sense "side explanations" of the Trumpet Judgements, and they certainly could not be AFTER Christ's return, when the saints rule. The 1260 days and 42 months also place Ch 12-13 as Trumpet Judgements.

                Is this because you have the 7th Trumpet as being the same as the Last Trumpet?
                Revelation 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

                Which would suggest everything here is therefore part of the 7th trumpet.
                Are you saying this because Chapter 12 is after Chapter 11? What good reason do you have to assume Chapter 12 is NOT a side vision? Based on the content, the Beast killing the saints after 42 months is just like the Beast killing the prophets after 1260 days.

                What you aren't getting I think is that the tares are removed from the church, and so God uses what the beast does to achieve His aims. The beast wins on the physical level for the duration of 42 months, but at the same time is losing on the spiritual level as God clears away the dross from the church.
                The tares are a harvest time image of Matthew 25, here is a contradiction entered by most people and fails the sniff test. The tares grow until what point? The point where God's harvest comes in. The harvest is shown in Revelation 14, and the first harvest is that of the first fruits, the witnesses which represent the saints.

                The tares or "grapes of wrath" are harvested second. The harvest is a prophetic time that occurs only as angels are reaping the world and cleaning it of sin, it could only happen after the 2nd coming. How could God use the Beast to persecute his own "tares". No no, the Beast kills the saints. That much is irrefutable.

                The temple is opened in BOTH Rev 11 and Rev 15 which means that the events from 11 b to 15 are one view,
                Not following. Why? Several visions begin and end, notably the Dragn/woman and Beast/Beast. What precludes these from being side visions that restate Chapter 11? Care to outline this?

                and that which is expressed elsewhere as another. IOW as we move towards the very end, we find that the amount of information seen and given increases.
                hmmmm, but the throne room is not the only link, as you draw links the criss-cross connections go wrong if you don't put the vision on a template or outline that respects both the image consistency, and the chronology.

                The visions between 11 to 15 only represent one single linear view,
                In what way do they lay out events? I have 3 periods of time laid out.

                1 Great Tribulation is the 6 seals (Started in John's day)
                2 End times (Started with New World order)
                3 Wrath (starts when Jesus arrives)

                I also have this all matched with my outline of Matthew 24, and nothing catastrophic happens to depopulate the world before Jesus returns!




                In Revelation, half is about the witness of the church, and then the second half is about the last week (with the very end about what comes next)
                The church's witness is topically covering all the way to early chapter 14, over half, but I'm not sure what you're showing here?

                The GT is when BOTH the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God is out poured.
                So the bowls of wrath, which is what comes from the throneroom, is this partly Satan's doing? This is a sort of blasphemous claim you're making (pardon the harsh term). God's wrath is not Satan's wrath. If Satan is doing some job helping God, Revelation doesn't show any such teamwork going on. This is twisted and backward thinking. God may allow Satan time, but all God's judgemetns are righteous, your reasoning fails here. God's judgements are righteous and true. Satan is all lies. Would God tell lies to get revenge? No.

                DO OVER!

                Jesus clearly tells us there is tribulation first, but that this persecution is NOT the GT. The GT is starting with the AoD (and not before), and that AoD didn't occur in 70 AD.
                Ah. The AoD Did occur in 70 AD. Absolutely did, and the Great Tribulation began with it. Jesus said it would occur in their Generation and it did.

                We also see through the 5th seal the tribulation of the church, but that this isn't the GT. There are still more to be martyred. In fact the last woe is the GT, which coincides with the 7th Trumpet, the 42 month reign of the beast, the requirement to worship him or die etc.
                How can you say the 5th seal isn't the GT, when the next chapter explains that it is!
                As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

                  [QUOTE=Aijalon;3267314]thanks for taking the time.


                  Before I respond to the bits of chapter 14, you and I are approaching the whole book very differently. I"ll just ask you a few questions and you can respond as you have the chance.

                  The Lamb alone is worthy to open the 7 seals, as far as imagery goes, the scroll cannot be read (believed to be the flying scroll from Zechariah) until the seals are un-sealed. In that light, none of the trumpets can blow until the 7 seals are all broken.

                  As I see it then, 6 seals occur, the 7th seal initiates the 7 trumpets.
                  the 6 trumpets occur, then the 7th trumpet initiates the 7 bowls.[QUOTE]

                  I agree

                  That creates 3 distinct periods of prophetic time linear to each other - presented below.

                  ............ Ch 1/2/3, Christ and the 7 stars/7 letters
                  ......Ch 4,Worship in heaven
                  Ch 5, Lamb Exalted
                  .......Ch 6, The 6 Seals
                  ............Ch 7, Multitude and 144000 sealed

                  [7th Seal Begins]

                  ............Ch 8/9 (4 winds // 1st/2nd woe locusts and demons
                  ........Ch 10a (7 thunders)
                  Ch 10b-11 (little book, prophetic explanation, 7th trumpet )
                  ........Ch 12a/b Woman/Dragon
                  ............Ch 13a/b (Beasts vs Saints, mark)

                  [7th Trumpet Begins]

                  ............Ch 14a - Lamb, Zion, Martyrs
                  .......Ch 14b - harvest and winepress
                  ....Ch 15-16 - bowls of wrath [Ch 17 Explanation]
                  CH 18:1 - lamentation vs celebration
                  ....Ch 19:11 - beast defeated
                  ........Ch 20 - Dragon defeated
                  ............Ch 20:11 - city restored
                  no comment

                  I would say that these sections depend on the completion of the previous section. The following verses demonstrate how one section follows the other.
                  Parentheticals are separate visions not necessarily related to what is otherwise going on.

                  Revelation 8:1
                  1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

                  Revelation 11:19 - the 7th Trumpet opens the temple .... Chapter 15 (Temple opened)


                  I
                  t is important to consider that in Chapters 12 and 13 the kingdom of the Beast is winning and defeating the saints, whereas in Chapters 14 and 15 and 16 the beast is being killed. The juncture at which the change happens is when the "temple" is opened. Note that the temple causes hail, and the first plague of wrath is hail. The images link to each other, we simply need to draw the lines of connection.
                  If you always make this kind of leap then every time an earthquake occurs it is the same event. Not so, you are offering opinion not fact.

                  You have some work to do to show me that the Great Tribulation hasn't already happened. Jesus told John it would happen soon, so surely it has happened or is happening.... Great War, Poverty, and pestilence. It is Great for it's ongoing nature, not it's suddenness.
                  The term we call "the Great Tribulation" is simply misused and confused with the 7 year "end time". The word "tribulation" is used 45 times in the new testament, according to strict literal translation it means pressure or pressed together. Unfortunately, that word is translated in various other ways, such as "suffering" "affliction" or "persecution" or "distress". The context explains the meaning better than changing the word around. It is helpful to know where else the word is used when searching for context.


                  Jesus says there will be Great tribulation and it will be the worst tribulation ever seen or ever to be seen and He comes back afterward. Since He is not back yet this has not happened. I never said the GT was 7 years. It is 3 1/2 years as stated in Rev.7:14

                  *
                  The word is translated as "tribulation" only 1 time in the NIV (Rev 7:14)
                  * 1 time in the New Living Translation (Rev 7:14)
                  * 14 times as tribulation in the Amplified
                  * 16 times by the ESV
                  * 17 times by the NASB
                  * 19 by KJV
                  * 24 by NKJV
                  * 26 by Darby's
                  * 35 by Young's
                  If you want to tell me what God meant rather than what He said we are at an impasse. He said there would be tribulation, the 7 trumpets are tribulation He said there was tribulation so there is tribulation. Clearly we are far apart on this one.

                  How can we know whether the Great Tribulation is being refereed to as a specific 7-year time period or simply as longer ongoing time of trial?
                  Already answered,


                  The answer is that it is possible to show the 6 seals in history and the shifts in society that went with them.
                  The Roman Peace (White Horseman)
                  Collapse of Roman Empire and Imperial war (Red Horseman)
                  Economic Slavery and Feudalism (Black Horseman)
                  Black Death and Viral pandemic, depopulation (Pale Horseman)
                  Church Schizm (Seal 5, martyrdom accelerated)
                  Space Storms and Terror (6th seal)
                  Again opinion substituted for fact. But I know of no one that suggests you view here is either accurate or biblical. Why are the four horsemen not riding right now with all that is going on? Your idea of what is clear is clearly different from mine. I don't like the long quotes with so much to cover so if you want to discuss our different views on the GT post a point and I'll respond.

                  Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

                    Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
                    True, there is an element of some of the visions being "to the side" but these always seem to give an explanation that ties them or other similar imagery together. They are not all alone on the side.

                    The reason for Ch 12 and 13 being within the trumpets (before the 7th) is pretty clear.

                    The beast and his rising from the abyss / sea is mentioned 3 times, it is the same beast by different names.
                    The Beast appears in chapter 8 as Apollyon (linked to Beasts home - the Abyss).
                    Chapter 9 - (serpents)
                    Chapter 10 (John given prophecy)
                    The Beast appears in Chapter 11 to kill the witnesses. (Beast + Abyss)
                    11, the 7th trumpet blows after this (as far as linear verses are concerned this confirms that the Beast is affiliated with the trumpets).
                    The Dragon appears in Chapter 12, and he is called a "serpent"
                    The Beast appears again in Chapter 13, along with a dragon in the form of a lamb. Abyss is also mentioned, in Chapter 9, and Chapter 11. These visions are referencing each other!

                    Simply put, the Beast and Dragon of Chapter 12 and 13 are GRAPHICALLY linked to the previous chapters. They are in a sense "side explanations" of the Trumpet Judgements, and they certainly could not be AFTER Christ's return, when the saints rule. The 1260 days and 42 months also place Ch 12-13 as Trumpet Judgements.
                    We know the beast rises during the 5th trumpet. So If we tie him up with the final week of Dan 9, then we know there MUST be 7 years at least from the 5th trumpet to the end (unless you think the 7th week itself is shortened?)
                    Now the 5th trumpet is only 5 months and the 6th trumpet 1260 days, so about 42 months. Add them together and you are short by more than 3 years.
                    As I put you do seem to think the 7th Trumpet is the Last Trumpet and thus the End when Jesus returns.
                    I see the 7th Trumpet as simply the last of the 7 Trumpet judgements - therefore there is a further 42 months AFTER it is blown. This then means there is time for the FULL week of Dan 9, and there is the mid point of that 7 years when the beast declares himself as god. This doesn't happen during the time of the Two Witnesses.

                    Revelation 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
                    What does it mean fulfilled? Does it mean the end of everything or the end of the mystery? Furthermore which mystery, for there are many. Notice it also says "in the days of the trumpet call..." IOW it is not in the moment or second or whatever WHNE it is sounded, but around that time, in those days (plural). I have for a long time now decided that the 7th Trumpet is NOT the Last Trumpet. It allows Revelation suddenly to all fit together.
                    Each Trumpet blast heralds what is to happen next - and we KNOW what is going to happen next - it is the 3rd woe.
                    One thing to consider in this, is who is it a woe for? Those who dwell on the earth.
                    We are told in Rev 12 what that woe is explicitly, for it is the time when Satan is cast down to the earth.
                    Further we are also told in BOTH Rev 11 AND Rev 12 that this is the time when Jesus starts His reign - which starts with kicking Satan out of Heaven.

                    Are you saying this because Chapter 12 is after Chapter 11? What good reason do you have to assume Chapter 12 is NOT a side vision? Based on the content, the Beast killing the saints after 42 months is just like the Beast killing the prophets after 1260 days.
                    Lots and lots of reasons - not least because the Two prophets are but two men.
                    Rev 12 actually brings the church back into focus, whereas the 6th trumpet is all about Israel.
                    So Rev 12a is about Israel (leading up to the 7th Trumpet), and Rev 12b is then how because Israel is saved Satan goes after the church.
                    There is a lot more as above in regards to timing, how it fits with Zechariah and many other things.

                    The tares are a harvest time image of Matthew 25, here is a contradiction entered by most people and fails the sniff test. The tares grow until what point? The point where God's harvest comes in. The harvest is shown in Revelation 14, and the first harvest is that of the first fruits, the witnesses which represent the saints.
                    Nope, the tares are those IN the church, but who are NOT part of it.
                    Notice in the parable of the tares they are harvested FIRST.
                    However when Jesus returns it is those who are His who are harvested FIRST.
                    This shows that they can NOT be the same harvest.
                    In fact we have the reaping out of the church of all that is false, and then we have the church taken out of the world, then we have the judgement of Matt 25 of the world.
                    Remember Peter wrote judgement STARTS in the church. The tares are ONLY planted in the church.

                    The tares or "grapes of wrath" are harvested second. The harvest is a prophetic time that occurs only as angels are reaping the world and cleaning it of sin, it could only happen after the 2nd coming. How could God use the Beast to persecute his own "tares". No no, the Beast kills the saints. That much is irrefutable.
                    The beast does kill the saints, but those who are NOT His, will not remain in the church, they will betray their brothers in Christ. They will take the Mark. And yes the beast will kill some of his own. Remember a kingdom which fights against its own will fall, and the beast's will fall.

                    Not following. Why? Several visions begin and end, notably the Dragn/woman and Beast/Beast. What precludes these from being side visions that restate Chapter 11? Care to outline this?
                    John gives an indicator of what is happening chronologically.
                    We have the 7 churches as one block of time, then the seals which is another leading to the trumpets, then the Trumpets which is another, then we have the focus on the final trumpet events, which includes the 7 vials as one block

                    hmmmm, but the throne room is not the only link, as you draw links the criss-cross connections go wrong if you don't put the vision on a template or outline that respects both the image consistency, and the chronology.
                    Well I could connect it up for you if you like. Simplest to say is that EVERYTHING from Rev 11b to Rev 19 (inclusive) is within the 7th Trumpet.
                    Rev 20 - 22 is also one time frame.

                    In what way do they lay out events? I have 3 periods of time laid out.
                    1 Great Tribulation is the 6 seals (Started in John's day)
                    2 End times (Started with New World order)
                    3 Wrath (starts when Jesus arrives)
                    let me fit it to your listing:
                    1. Churches - present persecution
                    2. Seals - birth pangs (as per Matt 24)
                    3. End Times (using a birth analogy, when the water breaks)
                    4. Wrath of God and Satan (starts when Jesus is crowned King)
                    5. Afterbirth - the NHNE (includes the Millennium reign)

                    I also have this all matched with my outline of Matthew 24, and nothing catastrophic happens to depopulate the world before Jesus returns!
                    So you don't have the 6th Trumpet BEFORE Jesus returns? Nor the others? There is a lot of ecological disasters and depopulation going on in those trumpets especially the woes.
                    Notice also that Jesus comes to END the GT for otherwise "there would be no one left".

                    The church's witness is topically covering all the way to early chapter 14, over half, but I'm not sure what you're showing here?
                    The churches witness is throughout, but it is specifically leading up to the 7th Trumpet.

                    So the bowls of wrath, which is what comes from the throne room, is this partly Satan's doing? This is a sort of blasphemous claim you're making (pardon the harsh term). God's wrath is not Satan's wrath. If Satan is doing some job helping God, Revelation doesn't show any such teamwork going on. This is twisted and backward thinking. God may allow Satan time, but all God's judgemetns are righteous, your reasoning fails here. God's judgements are righteous and true. Satan is all lies. Would God tell lies to get revenge? No.
                    No absolutely nothing of the 7 vials is Satan's doing.
                    God's wrath is NOT Satan's wrath, but the two occur during the same 42 month period. The beast declares himself god and demands people obey and take the mark or else die. God says, take the mark and suffer these consequences.
                    A clear picture / parallel can be seen with Pharaoh and Moses. Those who take the Mark are like Pharaoh, who seeks to make things even worse for the people of God, meanwhile God continues to demonstrate His sovereign power. It is the culmination of things.

                    DO OVER!

                    Nothing for me to do over, but maybe I need to work on the explanation bit for you.

                    Ah. The AoD Did occur in 70 AD. Absolutely did, and the Great Tribulation began with it. Jesus said it would occur in their Generation and it did.
                    I didn't take you for falling for preterist fallacies. There was no AoD in 70 AD. We know this for a large number of reasons:
                    1) The church didn't record that it ever happened, and continued to look for such an event in the future.
                    2) There is no historical record of an AoD in 70AD, not by Josephus or anyone else.
                    3) The AoD has to be seen FIRST, so that you can flee. However once Titus came with the armies it was TOO late to flee. So this would be a false sign.
                    4) Jesus did give the sign for fleeing, which was when the armies were first seen surrounding Jerusalem. this occurred in 66 AD. Then inexplicably for historians that army went away. Then the Christians fled, without seeing an AoD.
                    5) Some claim an army IS an Aod, it clearly isn't. In fact the army of 66 AD came because the Jews refused to sacrifice for Caesar any more. So if anything it was a removal of an AoD.
                    6) There was Great Distress in Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that didn't fit what else Jesus spoke about in Matt 24.
                    7) Jesus said ALL these things would be seen by that generation. That statement ALL includes the gathering of the elect and His return. That clearly didn't happen in 70 AD, so to base your claim upon this word and what it means, either you need to go the whole way and say it all already happened (which I think clearly did not), or else you have to recognise that the way it is being understood is incorrect.

                    How can you say the 5th seal isn't the GT, when the next chapter explains that it is!
                    The next chapter doesn't say that the 5th seal is the GT.
                    What the next chapter shows is that those who were martyred are waiting for their full number, that full number is made up of those who DO go through the GT. Hence the requirement to wait.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Overview of Revelation 14-22

                      Parentheticals are separate visions not necessarily related to what is otherwise going on.
                      Great assertion, care to justify this with.... anything?

                      If you always make this kind of leap then every time an earthquake occurs it is the same event. Not so, you are offering opinion not fact.
                      "An" earthquake or "tempest" could occur at various times. If it were called "THE" earthquake then you would have a point. But because there is ONE TEMPLE then there is a basis for linkage of two mentions of an event in the temple.

                      It could be a single event mentioned twice from a different angle (my view presently)
                      It could be two events that are separate.
                      BOTH VIEWS require justification, otherwise both are only assumptions.

                      Sadly it seems you're following the view that because they are separated by a few verses, they must be different events. You are leaping to conclusions without realizing it. We all must make some asumptions here or there, and we have to draw conclusions. But who is "leaping" to their conclusions... that's another question. Define your basis, and then we'll see who is leaping.

                      Don't forget that my "assumption" is based repeated imagery being associated with the same event. Specifically that Christ appears once in time, but is shown appearing multiple times in Revelation, therefore, Revelation is repeating the information is a 7-fold way. (picture based, not text based in nature). Concluding that each image must be a separate event is also an assumption, based on what?. What is the better assumption - that's the question. We all agree coming into this as investigators, we all have to start with assumptions, no way out of that.

                      Jesus says there will be Great tribulation and it will be the worst tribulation ever seen or ever to be seen and He comes back afterward.
                      Right.
                      Since He is not back yet this has not happened.
                      Or, it is going on right now.

                      I never said the GT was 7 years. It is 3 1/2 years as stated in Rev.7:14
                      ahh. here's the sticky point! The length of the "Great Tribulation' is never defined as 3.5 years. Secondly, and importantly. The GT is "cut short" (cut off) as if to mean a short length. In english it is perceived JEsus said the GT is therefore a "short period of time" which is absolutely NOT what he said. So you need to nail down why you think the GT is short - based on what? This is an important point, which I hope you don't miss. (Only in Daniel is there any supposed link to 3.5 years - but the only thing we can be sure of is that the AOD triggers the GT, it doesn't say how long that is.)

                      Per Daniel 9
                      The AOD can only happen in (or to) Jerusalem.
                      The AOD can only occur to Daniel's people (Hebrew people).
                      The AOD occurs on the schedule of the 70 weeks and after first appearance of the Messiah (Jesus' first ministry) ends.
                      The AOD brings desolation "to

                      Jesus again points to this, and the AOD did occur, and 3.5 years of war did happen when the zealots made a covenant (Fall, 66 AD), and did conclude by desolation in spring, 70 AD.

                      If you want to tell me what God meant rather than what He said we are at an impasse. He said there would be tribulation, the 7 trumpets are tribulation He said there was tribulation so there is tribulation. Clearly we are far apart on this one.
                      Yes indeed. I see the seals as the physical ramifications of a long period of physical tribulation. The trumpets are a different matter altogether, though they are part of the GT too, they are not physical or visible at all. Did you notice the part of the Olivet discourse that explains the GT in spiritual terms?

                      12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

                      Do you see any connection here to the letters to the 7 churches (overcomers)? (I certainly do).


                      Again opinion substituted for fact. But I know of no one that suggests you view here is either accurate or biblical. Why are the four horsemen not riding right now with all that is going on? Your idea of what is clear is clearly different from mine. I don't like the long quotes with so much to cover so if you want to discuss our different views on the GT post a point and I'll respond.
                      The historical events i mentioned are facts. There really is no denying that the those events correlate to the seals. As to whether you want to believe the correlation is prophetically linked is up to you. We all have opinions, one of yours which is unsubstantiated and needs a basis is that the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years and hasn't happened. Jesus said it would begin in one generation, therefore to me it's a fact that it did.
                      Let's continue the GT and AOD discussions in any of the many other threads on those subjects. I'll start one.
                      As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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