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Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

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  • #31
    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

    [QUOTE=2ndcoming;3327384]

    Can you elaborate more on your thought? Are you with Hebert Armstrong who believes a three days and three nights of Jesus' death with Wednesday being the crucifixion,and Saturday being the resurrection?
    Yes. Jesus goes into tomb just before sundown on what we would call Wed. and arises at sundown on what we call Saturday. The women show up at just before sunrise on Sunday but Jesus was already risen.

    Jesus clearly indicates that he shall finish this meal in heaven. You can argue that he starts a new meal which has no relevance to the unfinished Passover meal. But it doesn't speak the common character of Jesus.
    This may be clear to you but all I see is Him saying He will not drink this wine again until He does so with His disciples. This does not imply to me that such a statement means He intends to conclude this specific meal which is why I asked what lead you to conclude this. I can't see it from what is written.



    Then you are missing many good points when people spends tons of time to study their resemblance. I have listed one below;

    Quote

    [ There are four cups in the Passover Seder.

    1 The Cup of Blessing

    2 The Cup of Wrath

    3 The Cup of Redemption (represents the blood of the Passover Lamb)

    4 The Cup of the Kingdom

    He took the cup but didn’t drink it Himself. He passed it around. They drank it, but He didn’t. He said He wouldn’t drink it till the day when He drinks it new with His disciples in His Father’s Kingdom. This means that there will be another Passover Seder in the Kingdom. ]

    End of quote

    The four cups are the progressive revealing of kingdom. When the 4th cup is drank in heaven,it reveals that kingdom is at hand. Jesus prepares to return to this earth.
    Your point had "quote" around it, where is it quoted from? The Jew that did our Seder meal had 3, one for before, one for after and one for Elijah which is not used. Not familiar with any of the points you laid out. Having said that, nothing in the Matt. scripture mentions 3 cups or even three, it says "after supper He took THE cup gave it to His disciples ...". So Jesus is only shown taking a single cup. When he speaks of the future, He says He will not drink HENCEFORTH until He drinks with them in His kingdom. How is it He says henceforth (after this) if He didn't drink.

    I am willing to be convinced but I need scriptural support. Thus far it seems you have been taught something that sounds nice but is simply not born out by the scriptures you quote. Help me out here.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

      [QUOTE]
      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
      Sorry, but the above actually supports a Feast of Booths return.
      In Israel the Autumn starts 21/9, so an Autumn threshing floor would be at the end of Autumn meaning around 21/12.
      So the Summer threshing floor speaks of when Summer ends and the late harvest is in.

      Quote

      [ Question: "What is a threshing floor?"

      Answer: There are dozens of references to a “threshing floor” in the Bible, some literal and some symbolic. In biblical days there was no machinery, so after the harvest, the grain was separated from the straw and husks by beating it manually. First there had to be a flat surface that was smooth and hard, and this was known as the threshing floor. The process of threshing was performed generally by spreading the sheaves on the threshing floor and causing oxen and cattle to tread repeatedly over them, loosening the edible part of cereal grain (or other crop) from the scaly, inedible chaff that surrounds it (Deuteronomy 25:4; Isaiah 28:28). On occasion, flails or sticks were used for this purpose (Ruth 2:17; Isaiah 28:27). Then winnowing forks were used to throw the mixture into the air so the wind could blow away the chaff, leaving only the good grain on the floor. ]

      End of quote.

      Going back to Daniel 2.

      Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

      The chaff is clearly a byproduct while this summer threshing floors kicks in full gear. It is carried away by wind and precisely foretold by Daniel in verse 35.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

        [QUOTE]
        Originally posted by CurtTN View Post

        Yes. Jesus goes into tomb just before sundown on what we would call Wed. and arises at sundown on what we call Saturday. The women show up at just before sunrise on Sunday but Jesus was already risen.

        Like I have suspected,you are Armstrong follower. If you want to discuss if Jesus dies on Wednesday,or Friday which I believe,you can start a new thread.


        This may be clear to you but all I see is Him saying He will not drink this wine again until He does so with His disciples. This does not imply to me that such a statement means He intends to conclude this specific meal which is why I asked what lead you to conclude this. I can't see it from what is written.
        The only supper he partakes in heaven is the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus character speaks of him being a faithful Lord,that he always keeps his promise,when he speaks of the wine he didn't partake shall be finished in his Father's kingdom,what does it tell you? Is it logic to think that marriage supper of the Lamb is the unfinished Passover seder?

        Your point had "quote" around it, where is it quoted from? The Jew that did our Seder meal had 3, one for before, one for after and one for Elijah which is not used. Not familiar with any of the points you laid out. Having said that, nothing in the Matt. scripture mentions 3 cups or even three, it says "after supper He took THE cup gave it to His disciples ...". So Jesus is only shown taking a single cup. When he speaks of the future, He says He will not drink HENCEFORTH until He drinks with them in His kingdom. How is it He says henceforth (after this) if He didn't drink.
        According to their tradition,4 cups,not 3 cups served during their meal. Luke has recorded 2 cups.The first cup is either before the meal,or during the meal,while the second cup is after the supper. Matthew only recorded one cup. And some Christians believe this is the 4th cup. Not sure why you only see one cup in Matthew,and not seeing at least there are two cups in the account of Luke. And the word henceforth doesn't exist in KJV.


        I am willing to be convinced but I need scriptural support. Thus far it seems you have been taught something that sounds nice but is simply not born out by the scriptures you quote. Help me out here.
        Not trying to convince anyone. But there is a strong connection between the unfinished Passover supper and the marriage supper of the Lamb,if Jesus keeps his promise to drink the 4th cup in his Father's kingdom.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

          Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
          Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark

          The passage says that "the marriage" has taken place... and regarding the guests (for the "feast/supper"), "having been invited" (that is, the inviting has been accomplished by then)... but it does not say that "the marriage feast/supper" has taken place (as of yet, at that time). I believe it corresponds perfectly with the Matthew 25:1,10nasb "wedding feast/supper" (and Matthew 22:9-14nasb, as well as Luke 12:36-37,40 upon His "return" [that is, to the earth]).

          There is only one "rapture" (that of "the Church which is His body" before the 7-yrs/70th-Wk; FOR "the marriage"), but those who are "resurrected" AFTER/AT END of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk (Daniel 12:13, Revelation 20:4, etc) attend "the wedding feast/supper" [i.e. the earthly MK] (these are "resurrected" [to stand again on the earth] rather than "raptured" ["IN THE AIR"]), as well as those who endure unto the end of that time period, entering as living/mortals ["having been invited" to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, its inauguration (commencing at the time of Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth)] (none of these are said to be "raptured" [i.e. to a supposed heavenly feast/supper]). I supplied the passages, specifically (to show this).


          Matthew 26:29 correlates with Luke 22:16,18,30 (and that correlates with Matthew 19:28 / Matthew 25:31-34 "When the Son of man comes..." [always a "2nd-Coming-to-the-earth" reference])

          Beside ignoring the chronological order of events that take place in Revelation 19,
          I didn't ignore it, I actually endeavored to spell it out.

          And I think it was goldenboy [in his Post #27, first half] who has grasped that same point (the same point I made: Luke 22:16,18 [parallel to your Matthew 26:29] shows it to be once He "comes" [not before]).

          Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
          you have also suggested that the marriage supper of the Lamb has to take place on this war torn,nuclear contaminated earth after Jesus returns.
          I'm saying "the wedding feast/supper" IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
          (And I have no problem with that being "on the earth" following His "return"--that's exactly what it is.)

          Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
          Will God invites us to a wedding with such an awful and terrified place?
          One is either a part of the "Bride/Wife [singular]" (that is, already presently "betrothed" [legally/positionally] to Christ) ... that is, all those who have placed faith in Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation... or one is not [or, not yet].

          The "invitation to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" occurs after the rapture has occurred (DURING the 7-yrs/70th-Wk... leading UP TO Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the wedding feast/supper, which is the MK).

          We are not presently "inviting" people to the "FEAST/SUPPER" (but to be "betrothed"/in union with Christ, FOR "the marriage"... NOT "the feast/supper" [which "invitation" follows our "departure/rapture"]).

          Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
          If he does,then why is it that we can't find the marriage supper of the Lamb being mentioned in the rest of Revelation 19:17 to 21,and Revelation 20?
          "Blessed are those [plural] having been invited/called unto [it]..." and that's where He's headed WITH "the Bride/Wife [singular]" as ALREADY-WED... (and I listed all the "blessed" passages which refer to the earthly MK time period [i.e. "the wedding feast/supper"]; as well as the passages showing the wedding feast/supper to FOLLOW His "return" [with its "guests [plural]," its "10 [or 5] bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," and its "attendants/servants [plural]"<---none of whom He is returning/coming to MARRY (He's returning as an already-wed Bridegroom [FOR the wedding FEAST/SUPPER=MK])]).



          And by the way, I do see the 70th-Wk/7-yrs running from "spring-to-spring" (rather than "fall-to-fall"), with Revelation 19 occurring at the time that kings went out to battle.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

            Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
            Question: "What is a threshing floor?"
            Answer: There are dozens of references to a “threshing floor” in the Bible, some literal and some symbolic. In biblical days there was no machinery, so after the harvest, the grain was separated from the straw and husks by beating it manually. First there had to be a flat surface that was smooth and hard, and this was known as the threshing floor. The process of threshing was performed generally by spreading the sheaves on the threshing floor and causing oxen and cattle to tread repeatedly over them, loosening the edible part of cereal grain (or other crop) from the scaly, inedible chaff that surrounds it (Deuteronomy 25:4; Isaiah 28:28). On occasion, flails or sticks were used for this purpose (Ruth 2:17; Isaiah 28:27). Then winnowing forks were used to throw the mixture into the air so the wind could blow away the chaff, leaving only the good grain on the floor. ]

            Going back to Daniel 2.

            Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

            The chaff is clearly a byproduct while this summer threshing floors kicks in full gear. It is carried away by wind and precisely foretold by Daniel in verse 35.
            The point is that in the Bible there are TWO harvests.
            The first is in the Spring and we have the Wave offering - which is the first of the crop of the year.
            We have Jesus as our Wave offering - for the Wave offering occurs on the day after the Sabbath of Passover.
            So any threshing floor at that time is a SPRING threshing floor.

            The second harvest is 6 months later.
            The Feast of Booths is when the harvest has been brought in and the grain has been separated from the straw etc.
            This is the Summer threshing floor.

            There is no Autumn threshing floor, because the crops were already gathered in and threshed in the Summer. You need to understand the growing seasons in Israel and what the Bible tells us about these seasons.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              Good points! However, I trust everyone here realizes that the point would be moot for those who do not actually live in the Middle East or north of the equator? South of the equator would be the opposite. Rather than try to tie in Christ's coming with a specific feast maybe we should just try to *learn* from the Feasts?

              I can see why Christ would actually die in alignment with the Jewish Passover feast. And I can see why Pentecost might fall soon after this, in the same year. Jesus' earthly ministry was completed at a time when the Law was still in effect.

              But Christ's 2nd coming is not tied to Jesus' earthly ministry at all, even if the atonement and the outpouring of the Spirit were. Christ's coming is going to take place long, long after the Law was made passť. Therefore, we might do well to not try to pinpoint Jesus' return with reference to a specific feast under an outmoded covenant.
              I believe you are wrong for a number of reasons:
              1) The Feasts were given for perpetuity.
              2) They continued to be kept by the Apostles.
              3) The Feast of Booths is specifically stated as being one which will be kept AFTER Jesus returns.

              Jesus' Second Coming IS tied into what has been prophesied - and it has relevance to whom it was prophesied.
              So if there was a prophesy about His return, which related to people in Brazil or Iceland, then we would expect any time elements to make sense for them. (There aren't any).

              The Law is NOT passť, until AFTER judgement. Paul makes that quite clear in the gospel he preached. For some we have no need to preach about the Law, because people have an understanding of it, and therefore we only need preach about salvation from it. For others though they have no knowledge of the Law and so need to understanding their standing before God, and so understand the salvation offered.

              The hymn Amazing Grace sums up well in regards to the Law:
              'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
              And grace my fears relieved.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                Let's stick to KJV since it is the best translation of Hebrew bible.
                No it isn't, but that is a digression. Also the NT is translated from Greek not Hebrew.

                Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. 24And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

                I don't see the word "again" in this verse.
                You say you don't see the word "again", yet you read "no more". What does "no more" mean except that He HAS drunk and will NOT drink more of it.

                Further to drink it new means because He has drunk in the past He will drink it anew, or again.
                This cup is the cup AFTER the supper.

                Let's go to Luke 22 since Luke has a much detailed account of the last supper.
                There are two cups Luke has recorded. The first cup in verse 17 while the second cup in verse 20. Let's look at the first cup.

                Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

                In Jewish tradition,there are 4 cups of wine need to be taken before,during,and after the Passover meal. Luke records two,while Matthew and Mark records one only. In verse 17,before Jesus took the cup,he has already declared in verse 16 that he will not eat anymore thereof,until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Then he took the cup,and gave thanks,and said,take this,and divide it among yourselves. It is quite clear that he didn't drink this cup.He even repeated himself of no desire to drink this cup in verse 18,until the kingdom of God shall come.
                I wouldn't say Luke has a more detailed account at all. He may have a detail another doesn't have, but he also misses out a lot that John records, who I think has the fullest account. Yet none are entire in themselves.

                Now let's look at Luke 22:15 & 16 and understand what the language is stating.
                Jesus says "I desire to eat this with you", so do you think He doesn't eat it? Verse 16 states "I will not eat any more". Now this doesn't mean He won't eat THIS, but rather that this is the LAST time that He will eat with them.
                So then we realise that Luke has given the explanation of what is to occur BEFORE Jesus actually eats - so that we understand it is the LAST time He eats.
                Note in verse 19 is when Luke records Jesus giving thanks, yet according to your view then Jesus can't eat this.

                I don't find that Luke has Jesus having two cups - but only one. However Luke states what the meaning behind each event is - so we have the breaking of the bread twice - once as to the meaning and once as to the timing - and the cup twice.
                The Bread is in verse 16 and 19 and the Cup in 17 and 20.

                However we need to note this:
                Mar 14:18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me."

                Jesus is clearly eating with them.
                The breaking of the bread occurs in the middle of the meal after eating and drinking has occurred.

                After this Jesus gives Judas the morsel and the meal continues until its end.


                Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
                This is the cup after supper. There is no record from Luke that Jesus took this cup. This cup is considered to be the fourth cup. This 4th cup is also seen by some Christians as the cup in Matthew 26:28-29 and Mark 14:24-25.
                It is quite clear to me that the 4th cup is the one which is related to His statement about the New Covenant:
                1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

                Also,we need to look at the events in Luke 22:14 to 20 are in chronological order.
                14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
                When the hour was come,the table was set,when Jesus sat down with the twelve disciples,before the meal began,he already told them he would not eat any more thereof,until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. I believe Jesus didn't partake any of the four cups at all in last supper.
                Nope, Luke 22:14 - 20 are not in chronological order. Luke doesn't particularly write in chronological order, but in topical order.
                We don;t rely on one Gospel, but on all four and additional NT writings.
                Jesus ATE the Last Supper, which included eating bread and drinking wine.

                And your claim that Jesus shall return in Sukkot has no biblical evidence.Fruit of the vine is just another name for wine.
                Actually there is lots of evidence. I haven't presented it all as this is about your idea that Jesus didn't eat the Passover nor drink the wine.
                I am simply highlighting how Jesus DID eat bread and DID drink wine at the Lat Supper.

                I have also highlighted in regards to your other evidence, which doesn't point to a Passover time but a later time.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                  Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                  Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

                  I see Luke 17:30 as the rapture event,explained by one shall be taken,one shall be left in subsequent verses.

                  34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

                  I don't see this event has anything to do with the two witnesses. And concerning their arrival,I believe their arrival shall tie into the confirmation of covenant,which part of it is to give forth the permission to build the third temple. And this event is very likely to take place around a future Hanukkah.
                  Sorry, but though many take this as a rapture event, it cannot be for the very simple reason that this passage mirrors this one:
                  Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
                  Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
                  Mat 24:17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
                  Mat 24:18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
                  Mat 24:19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
                  Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
                  Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

                  This very clearly speaks of the need to FLEE. It does not say, get down on your knees and repent!

                  So the timing of this:
                  Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
                  Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
                  Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

                  Is the same time as that when the AoD is seen and is the start of the reign of the AC.

                  Further I would highlight one more thing from Luke:
                  Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
                  Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

                  You see there is the day, when Jesus is revealed, which leads to the night when people are taken. Those who do not flee are taken and killed:
                  Luk 17:37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                    Originally posted by goldenboy View Post
                    As far as was it passover or not, the meal was to be completed before the next daybreak. The Lamb's for the Passover seder are killed on the 14th,during the daytime. Then, on the 14th at evening, the meal begins. This is stated that way to make sure that it is prepared and ready when the time for the meal has come, at the start of the 15th.
                    This can be confirmed by reading Lev 23. In verse 27 it says to have the day of atonement on the "tenth" day of the month, whereas in verse 32 he equates that to being the"ninth day of the month at evening". Being that they are the same means that the 14th day of the month at evening is the same as the start of the 15th. Jesus ate the prepared passover meal on the Passover, the 15th of the month!
                    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
                    GB
                    Adding 2 concurring thoughts to the Passover meal.
                    1. The day is a treated as a high holy sabbath in which no work was to be done on that day. Meaning that it must be prepared the day before it is eaten.
                    2. The feast of unleavened bread takes place on the 15th thru the 21st. The Passover meal commemorates leaving Egypt having to eat unleavened bread during that time. It is a 7 day feast of unleavened bread, not 8. [14-21=8days]
                    Deut. 16:3 says that it is to be remembered as the bread of affliction. Even in Isa 30:20, when looking back on the Lord's (future) deliverance, it will be engendered as the bread of affliction.
                    You argue quite well that looking at Lev 23, the 9th evening means the evening at the end of the 9th, which is then the start of the 10th.
                    You then bring that idea into the 14th evening, and so have the 14th evening meaning the end of the 14th which is the start of the 15th.

                    This IF it stands alone makes sense and is an argument for what you claim.
                    However there are a few problems with this:
                    1) The 14th is stated as the Passover. So it is the NIGHT of the 14th in which the Angel of the Lord passes over. This CANNOT be the NIGHT of the 15th, for that would make the 15th the Passover.
                    2) The 15th is stated as the start of the FUB in the following verse to the 14th and is 7 days long. The 15th is declared a Sabbath. Yet you have noted that the Day the Lambs are slain is the day of Preparation and is the 14th day. We have confirmation from this in the gospels that Jesus died on the Day of Preparation:
                    Luk 23:52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
                    Luk 23:53 Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid.
                    Luk 23:54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.
                    So this means Jesus died when the Lambs were slain and not on the 15th the day after the Lambs were slain.
                    3) Now as Jesus ate a Passover Meal BEFORE the Lambs were slain we have a conundrum. Did Jesus eat an evening early or were the Lambs slain at the wrong time?

                    For me the time line in Exodus is fairly clear:
                    The lambs are to be killed in the evening at the START of the 14th. They then cook and eat the lambs and must finish it before daybreak of that same 14th.
                    The blood from the lambs is also spread around the doorposts etc.
                    The NIGHT of the 14th the Angel comes and Passes Over.
                    The morning of the 14th the people flee.

                    This then explains why Jesus ate a Passover Meal in the evening at the START of the 14th. It also shows they finished before daybreak, and in fact the disciples flee with the coming of the soldiers.
                    Jesus dies on the 14th during the Day. However He is brought down because the Day of Preparation comes to an end and the next day is the Sabbath of the first day of the FUB. The 15th is ALWAYS a Sabbath regardless of which day of the week it is.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      The point is that in the Bible there are TWO harvests.
                      The first is in the Spring and we have the Wave offering - which is the first of the crop of the year.
                      We have Jesus as our Wave offering - for the Wave offering occurs on the day after the Sabbath of Passover.
                      So any threshing floor at that time is a SPRING threshing floor.

                      The second harvest is 6 months later.
                      The Feast of Booths is when the harvest has been brought in and the grain has been separated from the straw etc.
                      This is the Summer threshing floor.

                      There is no Autumn threshing floor, because the crops were already gathered in and threshed in the Summer. You need to understand the growing seasons in Israel and what the Bible tells us about these seasons.
                      You are suggesting there is only two harvest.One in spring,the other one is 6 months later. What do Israelites do in between? Do they go fishing?

                      To serve your view that second coming is in Sukkot,you have created your own harvest season which I challenge you to go to Israel,to see what they are doing in the month of June,July,and August. If you see them harvesting in their agriculture land,please let me know.

                      Let me be straight with you. There are harvest in spring,harvest in summer,harvest in the fall. Don't manipulate the harvest season to your gain.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                        Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                        You are suggesting there is only two harvest.One in spring,the other one is 6 months later. What do Israelites do in between? Do they go fishing?
                        How many harvests where you live? The Bible specifies TWO harvest festivals. One in around the early part of the year - Spring, and the other 6 months later.
                        You have to decide whether you go by what the Bible tells you or not.

                        To serve your view that second coming is in Sukkot,you have created your own harvest season which I challenge you to go to Israel,to see what they are doing in the month of June,July,and August. If you see them harvesting in their agriculture land,please let me know.
                        Let me be straight with you. There are harvest in spring,harvest in summer,harvest in the fall. Don't manipulate the harvest season to your gain.
                        Nope - the Bible specifies TWO.
                        You can read about them in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and see what it says.
                        There is no Autumn harvest, because when Autumn starts (in Israel) the Harvest has ALL been gathered in.
                        Instead it is a time of preparation before the winter. A time of planting for the following Spring Harvest.
                        This is why the Jubilee is announced on the Day of Atonement, so that people don't plant the ground for the next year's Spring Harvest.

                        You can check it out yourself by searching it out, you can visit and you can see what the Bible says.
                        So this is NOT something I have made up. It is STATED in the Bible and is what occurs in the land.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                          [QUOTE]
                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          No it isn't, but that is a digression. Also the NT is translated from Greek not Hebrew.

                          You say you don't see the word "again", yet you read "no more". What does "no more" mean except that He HAS drunk and will NOT drink more of it.

                          Further to drink it new means because He has drunk in the past He will drink it anew, or again.
                          This cup is the cup AFTER the supper.

                          Jesus has attended three Passover meal before he took this one. What make you think that "no more" or "again" has to be referred to the cup he drank in this supper? Could it also be referred to the previous meal he has attended?


                          I wouldn't say Luke has a more detailed account at all. He may have a detail another doesn't have, but he also misses out a lot that John records, who I think has the fullest account. Yet none are entire in themselves.
                          John has the least account of the last supper,while Luke has the fullest account.And Matthew and Mark only recorded one cup,while Luke recorded two cups.Luke gave the much detailed account of the last supper comparing to Matthew,Mark and John.This is the fact.

                          Now let's look at Luke 22:15 & 16 and understand what the language is stating.
                          Jesus says "I desire to eat this with you", so do you think He doesn't eat it? Verse 16 states "I will not eat any more". Now this doesn't mean He won't eat THIS, but rather that this is the LAST time that He will eat with them.
                          So then we realise that Luke has given the explanation of what is to occur BEFORE Jesus actually eats - so that we understand it is the LAST time He eats.Note in verse 19 is when Luke records Jesus giving thanks, yet according to your view then Jesus can't eat this.
                          Nope. I have stated quite clear from my previous post that Luke's account of the last supper is in chronological order. The table was set.Jesus sat down with his disciples. Before the meal began,he has already said this

                          " With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. "

                          He would not eat any more thereof because he has previously eaten during the three passover supper he has attended. But this time he would not eat.This is his beginning statement before the supper.


                          I don't find that Luke has Jesus having two cups - but only one. However Luke states what the meaning behind each event is - so we have the breaking of the bread twice - once as to the meaning and once as to the timing - and the cup twice.
                          The Bread is in verse 16 and 19 and the Cup in 17 and 20.

                          However we need to note this:
                          Mar 14:18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me."

                          Jesus is clearly eating with them.
                          The breaking of the bread occurs in the middle of the meal after eating and drinking has occurred.
                          Luke definitely recorded two cups. I don't know why you don't see it. Is it because of argument sake? Mark 14:18 can be also understood as Jesus didn't partake any drink at all since drink is not mentioned.


                          After this Jesus gives Judas the morsel and the meal continues until its end.
                          Where do you find this?



                          It is quite clear to me that the 4th cup is the one which is related to His statement about the New Covenant:
                          1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
                          I have stated this thought from my previous comment.


                          Nope, Luke 22:14 - 20 are not in chronological order. Luke doesn't particularly write in chronological order, but in topical order.
                          We don;t rely on one Gospel, but on all four and additional NT writings.
                          Jesus ATE the Last Supper, which included eating bread and drinking wine.


                          Luke's account of last supper is in chronological order. It gives more detail than Matthew and Mark where two cups is recorded. Just because you don't see it,it doesn't mean that this is not the case. And it is also many Christians view that Jesus did not drink the cup.

                          Actually there is lots of evidence. I haven't presented it all as this is about your idea that Jesus didn't eat the Passover nor drink the wine.
                          I am simply highlighting how Jesus DID eat bread and DID drink wine at the Lat Supper.
                          Other than me,many Christians share the view that Jesus didn't drink or eat during the last supper.So every time you read a Christian view that Jesus did not drink in the passover meal,does it mean that you have to challenge them? How much time do you have?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            Sorry, but though many take this as a rapture event, it cannot be for the very simple reason that this passage mirrors this one:
                            Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
                            Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
                            Mat 24:17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
                            Mat 24:18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
                            Mat 24:19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
                            Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
                            Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

                            This very clearly speaks of the need to FLEE. It does not say, get down on your knees and repent!

                            So the timing of this:
                            Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
                            Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
                            Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

                            Is the same time as that when the AoD is seen and is the start of the reign of the AC.

                            Further I would highlight one more thing from Luke:
                            Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
                            Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

                            You see there is the day, when Jesus is revealed, which leads to the night when people are taken. Those who do not flee are taken and killed:
                            Luk 17:37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."
                            Why don't you start a new thread based on Luke 17? This has side track the main thread. I shall chime in and share my thought.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                              How many harvests where you live? The Bible specifies TWO harvest festivals. One in around the early part of the year - Spring, and the other 6 months later.
                              You have to decide whether you go by what the Bible tells you or not.


                              Nope - the Bible specifies TWO.
                              You can read about them in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and see what it says.
                              There is no Autumn harvest, because when Autumn starts (in Israel) the Harvest has ALL been gathered in.
                              Instead it is a time of preparation before the winter. A time of planting for the following Spring Harvest.
                              This is why the Jubilee is announced on the Day of Atonement, so that people don't plant the ground for the next year's Spring Harvest.

                              You can check it out yourself by searching it out, you can visit and you can see what the Bible says.
                              So this is NOT something I have made up. It is STATED in the Bible and is what occurs in the land.
                              Again,let me ask you this question. What do ancient Israelites do during the month of June,July ,August when you suggest no harvest in that time? Do they go fishing?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                                Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                                You argue quite well that looking at Lev 23, the 9th evening means the evening at the end of the 9th, which is then the start of the 10th.
                                You then bring that idea into the 14th evening, and so have the 14th evening meaning the end of the 14th which is the start of the 15th.

                                This IF it stands alone makes sense and is an argument for what you claim.
                                However there are a few problems with this:
                                1) The 14th is stated as the Passover. So it is the NIGHT of the 14th in which the Angel of the Lord passes over. This CANNOT be the NIGHT of the 15th, for that would make the 15th the Passover.
                                2) The 15th is stated as the start of the FUB in the following verse to the 14th and is 7 days long. The 15th is declared a Sabbath. Yet you have noted that the Day the Lambs are slain is the day of Preparation and is the 14th day. We have confirmation from this in the gospels that Jesus died on the Day of Preparation:
                                Luk 23:52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
                                Luk 23:53 Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid.
                                Luk 23:54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.
                                So this means Jesus died when the Lambs were slain and not on the 15th the day after the Lambs were slain.
                                3) Now as Jesus ate a Passover Meal BEFORE the Lambs were slain we have a conundrum. Did Jesus eat an evening early or were the Lambs slain at the wrong time?

                                For me the time line in Exodus is fairly clear:
                                The lambs are to be killed in the evening at the START of the 14th. They then cook and eat the lambs and must finish it before daybreak of that same 14th.
                                The blood from the lambs is also spread around the doorposts etc.
                                The NIGHT of the 14th the Angel comes and Passes Over.
                                The morning of the 14th the people flee.

                                This then explains why Jesus ate a Passover Meal in the evening at the START of the 14th. It also shows they finished before daybreak, and in fact the disciples flee with the coming of the soldiers.
                                Jesus dies on the 14th during the Day. However He is brought down because the Day of Preparation comes to an end and the next day is the Sabbath of the first day of the FUB. The 15th is ALWAYS a Sabbath regardless of which day of the week it is.
                                You are interpreting the passages concerning the crucifixion in light of how you view the Feast of UB, and possibly rabbinical rules for the Passover. Modern rabbinical rules do not allow the Passover to fall on a Monday, Wednesday, or Friday, and thus are forced to choose Friday over Wednesday. All those rules are extra biblical. The Essenes and Karaites, who rely only on what is written in the scriptures for guidance do not forbid a Thursday observance of passover. Others reject a Th. Passover because it would mean that THE LAMB presented himself on the donkey on a Sabbath (the 10th of Nissan). But Jesus did celebrate the Passover on Wednesday night (Thursday) passover and was crucified during the day on Thursday. I will get back to this in a little bit.

                                Let's look at the actual first passover. Exodus 12. Verse 6 says to keep it up until the 14th day and to kill it in the evening. It is the sacrifice itself, not the day that is called the Lord's passover (v.12 et al). You shall east out with unleavened bread (v.8). Looking at verse 14. "It shall be a memorial unto you; you shall keep it a FEAST to the LORD...". V.15 "SEVEN days shall ye eat UB (the feast)...and in the first day shall be a holy convocation (and the 7th)...v.17 "and ye shall observe (the feast of [italicized does not change the meaning with our without]) unleavened bread, for in this SELFSAME DAY have I brought your armies out of Egypt...".

                                The day to remember is PART of these 7 days of unleavened bread, as well as the 7th day as a holy convocation/gathering. It is one of those 7 days, the first one. Referring back to Lev. 23, the feast shall begin on the 15th day of the month and last 7 days. The memorial day is part of these 7 days. Exodus 12 says that it is to last until the 21st (again) until evening. The day of memorial is one of the seven days that begins with the 15th. Verse 22 goes on to say that they cannot go out until the morning. It would be hard for the whole congregation to sacrifice their lambs not being allowed to go outside on that night. Enough said.

                                The Passover preparation day is the 14th, when the lambs are slaughtered by the whole congregation. The 15th is the holy convocation. It has the same provisions as if it were a weekly sabbath, but is not called a sabbath. Tishri 1,10,15 & the 22nd are called sabbaths or sabbathons, but not Passover. Okay let's apply this to my "premise" that Jesus was crucified on a Thursday, the 15th. This makes the 14th a preparation day, 15th passover, 16th (Friday) sabbath preparation, 17th sabbath of unleavened bread, 18th-morrow morrow after the Sabbath.
                                In John 19:31 it says that the preparation day was the day before the Sabbath. And that "that sabbath was an high day" [not that high day was a Sabbath]. The latter is unnecessary. Scriptures already declare the holiness of passover. But again I remind you that it is not called a sabbath, but merely a day to do no servile work. A distinct but subtle difference between that and a Sabbath. All sabbaths are high holy days. Again there is no need to tell us that. He is telling us that that sabbath was the Sabbath of the feast of UB, a holy week ĺ7 days]. So Friday was the weekly sabbath preparation day, and not the preparation of passover.

                                Mark 15:42 makes it clear that the day before the weekly sabbath was called the preparation day. Mark and John confirm that it was THAT day that Joseph came to remove Jesus' body from the cross. John 19:14 uses the word preparation in regards to the day that Jesus was crucified. So we have established that two different days are referred to as preparation days. Technically the day before passover is never referred to as the preparation day. Only in this one instance does it seem like there are two days called such. Numerous scriptures in this account do call the day before the Sabbath as the preparation day. It is only our lack of understanding that we call this day (even in the pentatauch it is never called the "preparation" day but only that preparations are made for passover) "the preparation day"
                                Just this one instance does John use it before the Sabbath preparation day (Friday) had actually come. The understanding comes from them wanting to witness his death before the preparation day actually came. That is the reason that they begged Pilate to crucify him BEFORE the preparation day actually came. All other instances of the "preparation" can be traced directly to the day before the Sabbath.
                                Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
                                GB

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