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Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

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  • #46
    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

    Putting 2 and 2 together, when you understand that because the next day was to begin in a matter of hours (it was the 6th hour) that they demanded of Pilate that they crucify him before the preparation day, and that in John 19:31 Pilate sent word to break the leg bones of the crucified ones ON THE PREPARATION DAY, and it was because the next day (the same as when Pilate sent word)was the Sabbath that Joseph buried him in his tomb, you can see that Jesus was crucified on the day before the preparation of the Sabbath day, Thursday at 3 pm.
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    GB

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
      Jesus has attended three Passover meal before he took this one. What make you think that "no more" or "again" has to be referred to the cup he drank in this supper? Could it also be referred to the previous meal he has attended?
      When you say previous meal, do you mean the previous Passover meal, or the one the night before?
      Neither are in view of the context.

      John has the least account of the last supper,while Luke has the fullest account.And Matthew and Mark only recorded one cup,while Luke recorded two cups.Luke gave the much detailed account of the last supper comparing to Matthew,Mark and John.This is the fact.
      Actually John records the most as to what happened during the supper and things Jesus said. This is simple fact, count the number of chapters or verses or words.
      All three synoptic gospels only have one cup (including Luke).

      Nope. I have stated quite clear from my previous post that Luke's account of the last supper is in chronological order. The table was set.Jesus sat down with his disciples. Before the meal began,he has already said this
      " With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. "
      He would not eat any more thereof because he has previously eaten during the three passover supper he has attended. But this time he would not eat.This is his beginning statement before the supper.
      I know you have claimed Luke is chronological, and I have shown why such a claim is wrong. I can show you elsewhere in his gospel he also isn't chronological, such as Luke 17 recording what is stated in the Olivet Discourse. However even in this one passage we see he isn;t chronological.

      Luke definitely recorded two cups. I don't know why you don't see it. Is it because of argument sake? Mark 14:18 can be also understood as Jesus didn't partake any drink at all since drink is not mentioned.
      I see the cup is mentioned twice as is the bread. However this is simply one cup and one bread.

      Where do you find this?
      Gospel of John.

      I have stated this thought from my previous comment.
      You stated it as a possibility, that some people think. I have highlighted the scripture which states why we should think it.

      Luke's account of last supper is in chronological order. It gives more detail than Matthew and Mark where two cups is recorded. Just because you don't see it,it doesn't mean that this is not the case. And it is also many Christians view that Jesus did not drink the cup.
      Repeating yourself doesn't deal with the points made.

      Other than me,many Christians share the view that Jesus didn't drink or eat during the last supper.So every time you read a Christian view that Jesus did not drink in the passover meal,does it mean that you have to challenge them? How much time do you have?
      You may be right, though you are the very first Christian I know who has shared this idea. If someone wishes to show that this is correct, or wishes to discuss then I might do, though generally I only discuss when it pertains to End Times.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

        Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
        Again,let me ask you this question. What do ancient Israelites do during the month of June,July ,August when you suggest no harvest in that time? Do they go fishing?
        May be they do go fishing.
        Do you want to deal with what scripture states or simply speculate?
        The point is that whereas in the US you considered June July and August as Summer, and September, October and November as Fall, in Israel the Fall starts at the End of September, which starts at the End of the Feast of Booths, which is also known as the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Ingathering, which is the Harvest Festival.
        This is a most significant feast.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

          Originally posted by goldenboy View Post
          You are interpreting the passages concerning the crucifixion in light of how you view the Feast of UB, and possibly rabbinical rules for the Passover. Modern rabbinical rules do not allow the Passover to fall on a Monday, Wednesday, or Friday, and thus are forced to choose Friday over Wednesday. All those rules are extra biblical. The Essenes and Karaites, who rely only on what is written in the scriptures for guidance do not forbid a Thursday observance of passover. Others reject a Th. Passover because it would mean that THE LAMB presented himself on the donkey on a Sabbath (the 10th of Nissan). But Jesus did celebrate the Passover on Wednesday night (Thursday) passover and was crucified during the day on Thursday. I will get back to this in a little bit.
          Well you are seriously wrong as to how you think I am interpreting these passages. However do note that the 10th is NOT the Sabbath but the 1st day of the week.
          Work it out yourself
          10th - Sunday
          11th - Monday
          12th - Tuesday
          13th - Wednesday
          14th - Thursday (the Day of Preparation, when Jesus was crucified)
          15th - Friday (the High Sabbath, the 1st Day as commanded in Lev 23.)
          16th - Saturday (the Sabbath)
          17th - Sunday (the Day of the Wave offering, when Jesus rose from the dead).

          Let's look at the actual first passover. Exodus 12. Verse 6 says to keep it up until the 14th day and to kill it in the evening. It is the sacrifice itself, not the day that is called the Lord's passover (v.12 et al). You shall east out with unleavened bread (v.8). Looking at verse 14. "It shall be a memorial unto you; you shall keep it a FEAST to the LORD...". V.15 "SEVEN days shall ye eat UB (the feast)...and in the first day shall be a holy convocation (and the 7th)...v.17 "and ye shall observe (the feast of [italicized does not change the meaning with our without]) unleavened bread, for in this SELFSAME DAY have I brought your armies out of Egypt...".

          The day to remember is PART of these 7 days of unleavened bread, as well as the 7th day as a holy convocation/gathering. It is one of those 7 days, the first one. Referring back to Lev. 23, the feast shall begin on the 15th day of the month and last 7 days. The memorial day is part of these 7 days. Exodus 12 says that it is to last until the 21st (again) until evening. The day of memorial is one of the seven days that begins with the 15th. Verse 22 goes on to say that they cannot go out until the morning. It would be hard for the whole congregation to sacrifice their lambs not being allowed to go outside on that night. Enough said.
          Nope, the 14th is not part of the FUB - it is the last day in which leaven can be found and all must be consumed or disposed of. In fact when you pay attention to the Last Supper Jesus broke "bread". However for the FUB that bread is called Unleavened Bread every time. Yet Jesus didn't break Unleavened Bread but normal bread. Check the Greek out if you don't believe me.

          The Passover preparation day is the 14th, when the lambs are slaughtered by the whole congregation. The 15th is the holy convocation. It has the same provisions as if it were a weekly sabbath, but is not called a sabbath. Tishri 1,10,15 & the 22nd are called sabbaths or sabbathons, but not Passover. Okay let's apply this to my "premise" that Jesus was crucified on a Thursday, the 15th. This makes the 14th a preparation day, 15th passover, 16th (Friday) sabbath preparation, 17th sabbath of unleavened bread, 18th-morrow morrow after the Sabbath.
          In John 19:31 it says that the preparation day was the day before the Sabbath. And that "that sabbath was an high day" [not that high day was a Sabbath]. The latter is unnecessary. Scriptures already declare the holiness of passover. But again I remind you that it is not called a sabbath, but merely a day to do no servile work. A distinct but subtle difference between that and a Sabbath. All sabbaths are high holy days. Again there is no need to tell us that. He is telling us that that sabbath was the Sabbath of the feast of UB, a holy week ĺ7 days]. So Friday was the weekly sabbath preparation day, and not the preparation of passover.
          The 14th is indeed a preparation day, it is not a Sabbath day. The 15th is like a weekly Sabbath.
          The 10th is NOT called a Sabbath.

          Mark 15:42 makes it clear that the day before the weekly sabbath was called the preparation day. Mark and John confirm that it was THAT day that Joseph came to remove Jesus' body from the cross. John 19:14 uses the word preparation in regards to the day that Jesus was crucified. So we have established that two different days are referred to as preparation days. Technically the day before passover is never referred to as the preparation day. Only in this one instance does it seem like there are two days called such. Numerous scriptures in this account do call the day before the Sabbath as the preparation day. It is only our lack of understanding that we call this day (even in the pentatauch it is never called the "preparation" day but only that preparations are made for passover) "the preparation day"
          Just this one instance does John use it before the Sabbath preparation day (Friday) had actually come. The understanding comes from them wanting to witness his death before the preparation day actually came. That is the reason that they begged Pilate to crucify him BEFORE the preparation day actually came. All other instances of the "preparation" can be traced directly to the day before the Sabbath.
          Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
          GB
          Nope Mark 15:42 highlights that the day before the High Sabbath is called the Preparation Day. This may also be true of weekly Sabbaths, but this passage isn't speaking of the weekly Sabbath, but rather of that High Sabbath. Actually the 14th IS a Preparation Day, for that evening they were to prepare the lamb and eat it, put the blood on the posts and prepare to leave Egypt. This is the true Preparation Day.
          They did not beg Pilate to kill Jesus before a Sabbath Preparation Day. They demanded that Jesus be dead and taken down before the Sabbath (meaning the High Sabbath).
          So it seems you have the right idea of Jesus dying on the cross on the 14th, but seem to have your terminology a bit confused.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

            [QUOTE]
            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
            When you say previous meal, do you mean the previous Passover meal, or the one the night before?
            Neither are in view of the context.
            The previous three Passover meal that Jesus has attended. Let's read the verse again.

            Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

            "I will not any more eat thereof" is referred to the three Passover meal.According to John,Jesus has attended total 4 Passover.


            Actually John records the most as to what happened during the supper and things Jesus said. This is simple fact, count the number of chapters or verses or words.
            All three synoptic gospels only have one cup (including Luke).
            If we focus on the cup drinking during the meal,John has the least account. This is my point.

            Matthew and Mark recorded one cup.Luke recorded two cups. This is the fact. I still don't understand how you read scripture.The first cup is in verse 17,while the second cup is in verse 20.


            I know you have claimed Luke is chronological, and I have shown why such a claim is wrong. I can show you elsewhere in his gospel he also isn't chronological, such as Luke 17 recording what is stated in the Olivet Discourse. However even in this one passage we see he isn;t chronological.
            Luke 22:14-20 is in chronological order. Concerning Luke 17,it is in accord with Olivert Discourse. Luke 17:22-24 speaks of Jesus' physical second coming. It is in parallel to Matthew 24:30. Luke 17:26-37 speaks of the event rapture. It is also in parallel to Matthew 24:36-41. And before you bring this up again,I caution you to study the "body" and eagles" in Luke 17 verse 37,and compare them to "the eagles" and "carcase" in Matthew 24:28. They are different,and not pointing to the same event.


            I see the cup is mentioned twice as is the bread. However this is simply one cup and one bread.
            Again,take that verse to your pastor,ask him if there are two cups there or not.

            Gospel of John.
            I saw it too.


            You stated it as a possibility, that some people think. I have highlighted the scripture which states why we should think it.

            I do believe the cup in Matthew,Mark,and the cup after the supper in Luke 22:20 is the 4th cup. I shall elaborate my thought on that cup later.

            Repeating yourself doesn't deal with the points made.
            I don't do it very often. This time I only did it for you because you have a hard time of understanding Luke in chronological order,especially there are two cups being separated.


            You may be right, though you are the very first Christian I know who has shared this idea. If someone wishes to show that this is correct, or wishes to discuss then I might do, though generally I only discuss when it pertains to End Times.
            Google Passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb,you'll be surprised how many have written articles and comment to link these two events together,and shall be celebrated in heaven. Except they don't link the timing of marriage supper to a future Passover.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

              Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
              May be they do go fishing.
              Do you want to deal with what scripture states or simply speculate?
              The point is that whereas in the US you considered June July and August as Summer, and September, October and November as Fall, in Israel the Fall starts at the End of September, which starts at the End of the Feast of Booths, which is also known as the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Ingathering, which is the Harvest Festival.
              This is a most significant feast.
              I still don't understand why you keep insisting two harvest being separated by 6 months. Go take a trip to Israel and see if they only harvest twice a year. And you can ask them what they do in between these two harvest.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                [QUOTE]
                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                I didn't ignore it, I actually endeavored to spell it out.

                And I think it was goldenboy [in his Post #27, first half] who has grasped that same point (the same point I made: Luke 22:16,18 [parallel to your Matthew 26:29] shows it to be once He "comes" [not before]).
                Nope.The cup in Luke 22:16-18 doesn't parallel to the cup in Matthew 26:29. Please pay attention to Jesus' declaring "This cup is the new testament in my blood". We only find this covenant of blood in the cup after supper in Luke 22:20,Matthew 26:28,and Mark 14:24. They all speak of the same cup.

                Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

                Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

                Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many

                This is why I have been suggesting the cup in Matthew and Mark is the 4th cup,the same cup served after the supper in Luke 22:20.



                I'm saying "the wedding feast/supper" IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
                (And I have no problem with that being "on the earth" following His "return"--that's exactly what it is.)
                There is no millennial kingdom in Luke 22. Jesus didn't teach the message of millennium until it was given to John at Patmos island. The kingdom of God in Luke is the heavenly kingdom of God. The marriage supper of the Lamb shall be celebrated in heaven.



                One is either a part of the "Bride/Wife [singular]" (that is, already presently "betrothed" [legally/positionally] to Christ) ... that is, all those who have placed faith in Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation... or one is not [or, not yet].

                The "invitation to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" occurs after the rapture has occurred (DURING the 7-yrs/70th-Wk... leading UP TO Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the wedding feast/supper, which is the MK).

                We are not presently "inviting" people to the "FEAST/SUPPER" (but to be "betrothed"/in union with Christ, FOR "the marriage"... NOT "the feast/supper" [which "invitation" follows our "departure/rapture"]).
                I think you are following too much Jewish tradition and idiom and place them in the marriage supper of the Lamb. Keep it simple and just read what scripture tells us.

                Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

                The marriage has come. The wife has made herself ready. Fine Linen has been put on. Do you really want to see the wife dress like this and coming back with Jesus without a wedding takes place in heaven? You know when Jesus comes back,many shall be killed by the two sharp swords out of his month. And he shall gather all nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat for the reason they have parted his land and scattered his people.


                "Blessed are those [plural] having been invited/called unto [it]..." and that's where He's headed WITH "the Bride/Wife [singular]" as ALREADY-WED... (and I listed all the "blessed" passages which refer to the earthly MK time period [i.e. "the wedding feast/supper"]; as well as the passages showing the wedding feast/supper to FOLLOW His "return" [with its "guests [plural]," its "10 [or 5] bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," and its "attendants/servants [plural]"<---none of whom He is returning/coming to MARRY (He's returning as an already-wed Bridegroom [FOR the wedding FEAST/SUPPER=MK])]).
                This is a very strange theory from you. The wedding has been taken place in heaven. But supper doesn't take place until Jesus returns to earth. Can you explain what happen in between these two events? Does the wife has a big fight or argument with the Bridegroom,and is this why the supper is delayed until the earth?

                And concerning the five wise virgin and five foolish one,Matthew 25 is about rapture. Five shall be taken while five shall be left behind.

                And by the way, I do see the 70th-Wk/7-yrs running from "spring-to-spring" (rather than "fall-to-fall"), with Revelation 19 occurring at the time that kings went out to battle.
                If we take the Passover in 2025 as Jesus' second coming,and subtract 2520 days from it,we come to Pentecost/Shavuot in 2018. I suspect the tribulation is likely to occur on that day. And since I don't believe a gap theory,my speculation is the church shall be taken on the same day. Many Christians believe Jesus shall come back on a future Pentecost/Shavuot to take them home.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                  [QUOTE=2ndcoming;3327538]


                  Like I have suspected,you are Armstrong follower. If you want to discuss if Jesus dies on Wednesday,or Friday which I believe,you can start a new thread.
                  Huh? I didn't bring up Armstrong you did. I never heard of the guy. I didn't bring up the Wed/Fri issue you did by asking me if I believed that.



                  The only supper he partakes in heaven is the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus character speaks of him being a faithful Lord,that he always keeps his promise,when he speaks of the wine he didn't partake shall be finished in his Father's kingdom,what does it tell you? Is it logic to think that marriage supper of the Lamb is the unfinished Passover seder?



                  According to their tradition,4 cups,not 3 cups served during their meal. Luke has recorded 2 cups.The first cup is either before the meal,or during the meal,while the second cup is after the supper. Matthew only recorded one cup. And some Christians believe this is the 4th cup. Not sure why you only see one cup in Matthew,and not seeing at least there are two cups in the account of Luke. And the word henceforth doesn't exist in KJV.




                  Not trying to convince anyone. But there is a strong connection between the unfinished Passover supper and the marriage supper of the Lamb,if Jesus keeps his promise to drink the 4th cup in his Father's kingdom.
                  So all I can conclude is that this is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

                  Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                    [QUOTE]
                    Originally posted by CurtTN View Post

                    Huh? I didn't bring up Armstrong you did. I never heard of the guy. I didn't bring up the Wed/Fri issue you did by asking me if I believed that.
                    You have made this statement in post #31.

                    [ Yes. Jesus goes into tomb just before sundown on what we would call Wed. and arises at sundown on what we call Saturday. The women show up at just before sunrise on Sunday but Jesus was already risen. ]

                    You didn't mention the name of Herbert Armstrong. But you follow his teaching that crucifixion takes place on Wednesday with resurrection on Saturday.


                    So all I can conclude is that this is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.
                    There are more evidence to point to Jesus' return on season of spring based on the order of former rain and latter rain in scripture. Former rain is autumn rain,while latter rain is spring rain,because the rainy season in Israel always begins in November,ends in month of May.

                    Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

                    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

                    3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

                    Many Christians believe Hosea speaks of a prophecy. Two days is understood as two thousand years. In the third day which is the beginning of three thousand years,Jesus shall raise us up.And we shall live in his sight.

                    But interesting point is when he shall come unto us as the rain,Hosea puts latter rain first (spring rain),and former rains later (autumn rain). My speculation is God wants us to know Jesus' return shall take place in season of spring.

                    Zechariah 10:1 also speaks of the latter rain. "Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain". I shall elaborate on this tomorrow.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      Nope.The cup in Luke 22:16-18 doesn't parallel to the cup in Matthew 26:29. Please pay attention to Jesus' declaring "This cup is the new testament in my blood". We only find this covenant of blood in the cup after supper in Luke 22:20,Matthew 26:28,and Mark 14:24. They all speak of the same cup.

                      Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

                      Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

                      Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many

                      This is why I have been suggesting the cup in Matthew and Mark is the 4th cup,the same cup served after the supper in Luke 22:20.
                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      There is no millennial kingdom in Luke 22. Jesus didn't teach the message of millennium until it was given to John at Patmos island.
                      No, Jesus spoke almost exclusively of this very promised and prophesied kingdom, promised to Israel... because that is to whom He primarily came to speak unto first. Every time He mentioned "the kingdom of the heavens," it was in reference to this very thing (rather than the [faulty] idea of "up in heaven" as the Amill-teaching, and Preterist-teaching, etc, has it, regarding this phrase).
                      [see Matthew 25:1, as well as Matthew 25:10nasb "wedding feast/supper"... and Matthew 22:2nasb, as well as Matthew 22:9-14nasb; and other passages with the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" (it's located ON THE EARTH)]

                      So I totally disagree that it was first introduced in John's writing of Revelation. (Isaiah 24:21-23 aligns with Rev19, for example).

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      The kingdom of God in Luke is the heavenly kingdom of God. The marriage supper of the Lamb shall be celebrated in heaven.
                      I disagree, per previously stated reasons (including an earlier post in this thread).

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      I think you are following too much Jewish tradition and idiom and place them in the marriage supper of the Lamb. Keep it simple and just read what scripture tells us.

                      Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
                      Those following "Jewish tradition" are ones saying [differently to what I'm saying] things like:

                      --"no man knows the day or the hour" refers to RAPTURE-timing (it's NOT; these are "2nd Coming to the earth" passages)

                      --"no man knows the day or hour" refers to RAPTURE on Rosh Hashanah (the "rapture" is NOT found in the context of the Olivet Discourse, so no, this idiom is not referring to our rapture, but His 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, per context)

                      --and these do NOT distinguish between "the marriage" and "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and therefore, are incorrectly having Jesus coming to MARRY 10 [or even 5] virgins [plural]--this is NOT "the marriage" but "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel])

                      So, your suggestion that my posts are following "Jewish tradition" is not accurate.

                      I gave the explanation in an earlier post or posts.
                      The plain reading (of Rev19:7) is that "the marriage" has taken place. By contrast, it is NOT said that "the wedding feast/supper" has already taken place (Rev19:9). That's where the Bridegroom WITH His "Bride/Wife [singular]" is now headed (and where the other passages regarding it, show it to be when He "returns FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! Luke 12:36-37,40; etc)

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      The marriage has come. The wife has made herself ready. Fine Linen has been put on. Do you really want to see the wife dress like this and coming back with Jesus without a wedding takes place in heaven?
                      I've already stated previously, that in Revelation 19:7, "the marriage" has already taken place (in heaven!)... and He's coming/returning (to the earth) as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (including the OT saints who will be "[bodily] resurrected" [to stand again on the earth] "AT THE END OF THE DAYS" [the END of the "days" referred to in that chapter, Daniel 12--the END of the 70th-Week], and so will be present AT "the wedding feast/supper"/MK, ON THE EARTH [I gave those Scriptures earlier])

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      You know when Jesus comes back,many shall be killed by the two sharp swords out of his month. And he shall gather all nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat for the reason they have parted his land and scattered his people.
                      People will have been dying throughout much of the 7-yr period as well.

                      When do you say that the Sheep and goat separation/judgment takes place, Matthew 25:31-34, where it says "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations: [...]"

                      I believe this is after His 2nd Coming to the earth, and that these Sheep of the Gentile nations will be "blessed" to enter the Millennial Kingdom time period (which is "the wedding feast/supper" [Revelation 19:9 "blessed" (Daniel 12:12 "blessed")]). So how do you explain this, in light of what you have suggested?

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      This is a very strange theory from you. The wedding has been taken place in heaven. But supper doesn't take place until Jesus returns to earth. Can you explain what happen in between these two events? Does the wife has a big fight or argument with the Bridegroom,and is this why the supper is delayed until the earth?
                      No. It's because many people are "invited" to the wedding feast/supper (the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom). The "invitation" is in Matthew 24:14 (and includes 26:13) preached DURING the 7-yrs leading UP TO His 2nd Coming to the earth (FOR the MK).

                      A "bride/wife [singular]" is not "invited" to her own wedding feast/supper, but is present there WITH her bridegroom (in this case, The Bridegroom WITH His "Bride/Wife [singular]" [already-wed, before they "return" FOR "the wedding feast/supper"/the MK]).

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      And concerning the five wise virgin and five foolish one,Matthew 25 is about rapture. Five shall be taken while five shall be left behind.
                      Totally disagree.

                      This is an event which follows "the marriage" (which has already occurred by this point)... and is "the wedding feast/supper" (the earthly MK, upon His "return"). Only those who will be ready will be permitted to enter into the (earthly) Millennial Kingdom time period, following His "return" [Luke 12:36-37,40,42-44, and parallel passages].

                      Many people incorrectly read INTO these passages a "rapture" idea (which is NOT its context here... but is revealed and explained elsewhere).

                      Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                      If we take the Passover in 2025 as Jesus' second coming,and subtract 2520 days from it,we come to Pentecost/Shavuot in 2018. I suspect the tribulation is likely to occur on that day. And since I don't believe a gap theory,my speculation is the church shall be taken on the same day. Many Christians believe Jesus shall come back on a future Pentecost/Shavuot to take them home.
                      Over the course of many years, I've tried on for size many of these ideas, including the one you are presenting here. It may seem fairly reasonable, but I find a fault with it (which makes it fall far short of the chronology I have) which makes it only so-so, and that is, NOTHING of significance falls at the 1260d-mark (nor at the mark of 1290d and/or 1335d, if you even toss those into the mix of this particular time-frame you have suggested). So for me, I'll stick with the one that has many more alignments (than merely two seemingly decent ones that you've pointed to, in this), including the earlier reference I made (regarding the timing of Rev19).


                      And, by the way, I too have mentioned the "spring 2nd Coming [to the earth]" idea because of Hosea 5:15-6:3 [you referred to] and Psalm 72:6 [in the "King" chapter] (among others). So we agree in some aspects, just differing in some of the nitty-gritty details.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                        Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                        Well you are seriously wrong as to how you think I am interpreting these passages. However do note that the 10th is NOT the Sabbath but the 1st day of the week.
                        Work it out yourself
                        10th - Sunday
                        11th - Monday
                        12th - Tuesday
                        13th - Wednesday
                        14th - Thursday (the Day of Preparation, when Jesus was crucified)
                        15th - Friday (the High Sabbath, the 1st Day as commanded in Lev 23.)
                        16th - Saturday (the Sabbath)
                        17th - Sunday (the Day of the Wave offering, when Jesus rose from the dead).


                        Nope, the 14th is not part of the FUB - it is the last day in which leaven can be found and all must be consumed or disposed of. In fact when you pay attention to the Last Supper Jesus broke "bread". However for the FUB that bread is called Unleavened Bread every time. Yet Jesus didn't break Unleavened Bread but normal bread. Check the Greek out if you don't believe me.


                        The 14th is indeed a preparation day, it is not a Sabbath day. The 15th is like a weekly Sabbath.
                        The 10th is NOT called a Sabbath.


                        Nope Mark 15:42 highlights that the day before the High Sabbath is called the Preparation Day. This may also be true of weekly Sabbaths, but this passage isn't speaking of the weekly Sabbath, but rather of that High Sabbath. Actually the 14th IS a Preparation Day, for that evening they were to prepare the lamb and eat it, put the blood on the posts and prepare to leave Egypt. This is the true Preparation Day.
                        They did not beg Pilate to kill Jesus before a Sabbath Preparation Day. They demanded that Jesus be dead and taken down before the Sabbath (meaning the High Sabbath).
                        So it seems you have the right idea of Jesus dying on the cross on the 14th, but seem to have your terminology a bit confused.
                        Do you think that the children of Israel left Egypt on the beginning of the 14th, the day you claim is the day of the Passover celebration? That would be only the end of the 13th day of Nissan. The feast days are set up in accordance with the moon. Passover and Tabernacles are both designed to be celebrated on the full moon. That cannot occur before the end of the 14th.

                        I said that Tishri 1,10,15, and the 22nd are called Sabbaths(h7676) or sabbathons(h7677). The 10th to which you say I mistakenly quoted was the Day of Atonement, not the 10th day of the first month.
                        Speaking of the 1st day of unleavened bread it says:
                        Exo.12:16-...no manner of servile work shall be done in them, SAVE that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. [it is referring to both 1st & 7th days of UB].
                        Lev.23:7-..."in the first day [of UB] ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
                        Num.28:18- "In the first day [of UB] shall be a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

                        The first day of UB is the 15th (which, according to you is not the Passover) is nowhere listed as a Sabbath. Nothing whatsoever is said about the 14th either way.. Only if you resort to the 15th as Passover can you even begin to argue for it being a Sabbath. Virtually the same is said for the 7th day of UB. Not a Sabbath. It says that no servile work shall be done, but only that which is to feed oneself. Not the same regulations as a weekly Sabbath.

                        FEAST OF TRUMPETS
                        Lev.23:24,25- "...in the first day of the [7th] month, shall ye have a SABBATH(H7677,sabbathon), a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
                        Num. 29:1-..."on the first day of the [7th] month, ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work; it is a day of blowing of trumpets. [not called a Sabbath here]
                        The Feast of Trumpets is called a Sabbathon, meaning like a Sabbath. But the point is that it does have a Sabbath like designation. Passover does not.

                        DAY OF ATONEMENT

                        Lev.23:27ff-...ye shall afflict your souls,...28 And ye shall do NO WORK (as opposed to no SERVILE, none is allowed) in the same day;31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a SABBATH(h7676, SAME as a weekly Sabbath, not sabbathon) of rest....
                        Here the Day of Atonement is the only day that is given equall billing with the weekly Sabbath. All other days designated as Sabbaths use the word H7677, sabbathon.

                        THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES

                        Lev.23:35ff-On the first day (of Tabernacles) shall be a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36...on the 8th day shall be an holy convocation unto you: and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein 39 Also on the 15th day of the 7th month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a SABBATH(H7677, sabbathon) and on the 8th day shall be a SABBATH (H7677, sabbathon)

                        Again I would say that the only days with a "Sabbath" designation other than the weekly Sabbath, are days found only in the month of Tishri.
                        When we look at the word "prepare" it is only found in conjunction with the weekly Sabbath, perhaps allowing for the holy Sabbaths in Tishri, as well. But is only used with the word Sabbath. The only days that might be labeled as preparation days would have to be the day before a Sabbath. And Passover, even if you do concede that it is on the 15th, does not have anywhere that gives it a "Sabbath" designation.

                        THE "MEMORIAL" FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD

                        Exo.12:14-And THIS DAY shall be unto you a memorial; and ye shall keep it a FEAST to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

                        The Passover shall be made a memorial by keeping a feast for 7 days. From the 15th to the 21st. Why would you memorialize a day without setting it aside as a "holy" day. Nothing is said of making the 14th a special day. The fact of the matter is the children of Israel journey 3 days before crossing the red sea. Numbers 33:
                        33:3-And they departed from Ramses in the first month on the FIFTEENTH day of the first month; on the morrow after the Passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of the Egyptians.
                        33:5-And the children of Israel removed from Ramses and pitched in Succoth.
                        33:6-And they departed from Succoth and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness.
                        33:7-And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baazephon: and they pitched before Midgol.
                        33:8-And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passes through the midst of the sea into the wilderness and went three days journey in the wilderness of Etham and pitched in Marah.
                        33:9-And they removed from Marah and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water and 70 palm trees and they pitched there.

                        As I know you are aware, each day begins at sundown. The children of Israel were told to leave during that night and told to leave.
                        Exo. 12:30ff-And Pharaoh rose up in the night...31-And he called for Moses and Aaron by night and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said. 33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste...

                        Do you still honestly think that they would celebrate THAT NIGHT, "that day shall be unto you a memorial; ...ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever", on the day that precedes the day that they left, AS A MEMORIAL?.

                        THE PREPARATION DAY IS THE DAY BEFORE THE SABBATH

                        Mark 15:42-And now WHEN THE EVENING WAS COME, because it was the day before the Sabbath, [43] Joseph of Arimathea....came and craved the body of Jesus.

                        If you cannot see here that the day has changed from one day to the next, I don't know how to open your eyes. It clearly says that evening HAD/WAS come, that Joseph then had to first go boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. There is no question that the day has changed. From Thursday to Friday, the day before the Sabbath.

                        So, now if you want to claim that they didn't eat unleavened bread on the Passover, on the 15th, when it is strictly forbidden, Then you are misguided.
                        Exo.12:19-...for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that sould shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

                        You might get away with believing that about Jesus, but not all of the disciples. I reject the idea that the disciples ate leavened bread on the Passover.

                        Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
                        GB

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                        • #57
                          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          In fact when you pay attention to the Last Supper Jesus broke "bread". However for the FUB that bread is called Unleavened Bread every time. Yet Jesus didn't break Unleavened Bread but normal bread. Check the Greek out if you don't believe me.
                          Agreed.

                          But I'm not grasping exactly what your [the two of you] disagreement or discussion is pertaining to...

                          are you just discussing "which day" Jesus was crucified? Or is there more to your disagreement (that I'm missing)? I'm finding it somewhat difficult to follow. Thanks.

                          Originally posted by goldenboy View Post
                          So, now if you want to claim that they didn't eat unleavened bread on the Passover, on the 15th, when it is strictly forbidden, Then you are misguided.
                          Exo.12:19-...for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that sould shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.


                          You might get away with believing that about Jesus, but not all of the disciples. I reject the idea that the disciples ate leavened bread on the Passover.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                            Agreed.
                            But I'm not grasping exactly what your [the two of you] disagreement or discussion is pertaining to...
                            are you just discussing "which day" Jesus was crucified? Or is there more to your disagreement (that I'm missing)? I'm finding it somewhat difficult to follow. Thanks.
                            It is a bit bizarre because it is a tangent from the main topic of this OP.
                            Basically we seem to be agreeing that Jesus was crucified on the Thursday.
                            However for some reason, which I am trying to get to grips with, goldenboy seems to think that Thursday is the 15th and that this is also the FUB. Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem on the 10th, which we agree, but goldenboy makes the 10th a Sabbath, which I disagree, and personally can't fathom how anyone can't follow how clearly I laid it out, that the 10th being the 1st day (Sunday) leads to Thursday 14th, which is when the lambs are slain.
                            If the 10th is the Sabbath, then 11th Sunday, 12th Monday, 13th Tuesday, 14th Wednesday, 15th Thursday, which is why I think goldenboy claims Jesus rode the donkey on the Sabbath.

                            Joh 12:1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

                            Joh 12:12 The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem.
                            Joh 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!"
                            Joh 12:14 And Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, just as it is written,
                            Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!"

                            From these two passages we see that Jesus arrived in Bethany 6 days before Passover and 5 days before Passover rode into Jerusalem.

                            Now Passover is the 14th, but goldenboy believes the 15th. Yet the question is whether the 6 days is inclusive or exclusive.
                            We can determine this by following events in Mark, where we discover it is inclusive.
                            So we have 9th arrive in Bethany, Possibly having started on the 8th and arriving at the start of the 9th (in the evening - at the start of the Sabbath):
                            Joh 12:2 So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table.
                            This is day 6.
                            Then rides on donkey - 10th and Sunday - day 5.
                            11th - day 4
                            12th - day 3
                            13th - day 2
                            14th - day 1 the Passover

                            goldenboy works then on an exclusive count. The big issue with that is it requires Jesus to ride on a donkey on the Sabbath, travelling further than was allowed etc, making an animal work etc.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                              Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                              I still don't understand why you keep insisting two harvest being separated by 6 months. Go take a trip to Israel and see if they only harvest twice a year. And you can ask them what they do in between these two harvest.
                              I insist on TWO harvest FEASTS. TWO times stated as when the Harvest is brought in. There are TWO threshing floors - one at the start of the Spring, the other at the end of the Summer. This is FACT. Whether it takes them two weeks to bring in the harvest or two months is immaterial. The point is that they thresh out the grain in late Summer. They do NOT have an Autumn harvest. What you do between harvesting is prepare the ground, plant and pray for rain, go fishing, hunting or whatever. You also spend time preserving what has been harvested so that it lasts through the autumn and winter.
                              I base what I am highlighting off what the Bible states and is in reference to Dan 2:35.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                                Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                                The previous three Passover meal that Jesus has attended. Let's read the verse again.
                                Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
                                "I will not any more eat thereof" is referred to the three Passover meal.According to John,Jesus has attended total 4 Passover.
                                Wow!
                                Jesus states explicitly that He desires to share this meal with them, and then you conclude that He doesn't eat this meal with them. I am not sure there is anything else which can be said.

                                If we focus on the cup drinking during the meal,John has the least account. This is my point.
                                Matthew and Mark recorded one cup.Luke recorded two cups. This is the fact. I still don't understand how you read scripture.The first cup is in verse 17,while the second cup is in verse 20.
                                My focus is not on the cup, but the WHOLE meal, where Jesus ate and drank.
                                All 3 synoptic gospels record only ONE cup.
                                Luke speaks of it twice.

                                Luke 22:14-20 is in chronological order. Concerning Luke 17,it is in accord with Olivert Discourse. Luke 17:22-24 speaks of Jesus' physical second coming. It is in parallel to Matthew 24:30. Luke 17:26-37 speaks of the event rapture. It is also in parallel to Matthew 24:36-41. And before you bring this up again,I caution you to study the "body" and eagles" in Luke 17 verse 37,and compare them to "the eagles" and "carcase" in Matthew 24:28. They are different,and not pointing to the same event.
                                Nope, Luke 22 is not chronological but stating a point which is made.
                                Luke 17 IS from the Olivet Discourse yet Luke records it connected to another section of his writing. Note the Olivet Discourse is recorded in Luke 21, yet Luke recounts this in Luke 17 before Jesus reaches Jerusalem.
                                As for your body, corpse, yes they are different words - yet BOTH relate to a dead person.
                                As for eagles, the word can mean all sorts of birds including vultures.
                                The simple FACT is that Luke 17 relates to the SAME event as Matt 24 and does not speak of the rapture event. You have NO need to flee the rapture - in fact it will do you no good.

                                Again,take that verse to your pastor,ask him if there are two cups there or not.
                                Why would asking a Pastor help? The Words are there for anyone to read.

                                I don't do it very often. This time I only did it for you because you have a hard time of understanding Luke in chronological order,especially there are two cups being separated.
                                I get the impression you have a hard time understanding there is ONLY ONE cup in view in Luke 22. It is the 4th cup AFTER supper.

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