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Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

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  • #61
    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is a bit bizarre because it is a tangent from the main topic of this OP.
    Basically we seem to be agreeing that Jesus was crucified on the Thursday.
    However for some reason, which I am trying to get to grips with, goldenboy seems to think that Thursday is the 15th and that this is also the FUB. Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem on the 10th, which we agree, but goldenboy makes the 10th a Sabbath, which I disagree, and personally can't fathom how anyone can't follow how clearly I laid it out, that the 10th being the 1st day (Sunday) leads to Thursday 14th, which is when the lambs are slain.
    If the 10th is the Sabbath, then 11th Sunday, 12th Monday, 13th Tuesday, 14th Wednesday, 15th Thursday, which is why I think goldenboy claims Jesus rode the donkey on the Sabbath.

    Joh 12:1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

    Joh 12:12 The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem.
    Joh 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!"
    Joh 12:14 And Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, just as it is written,
    Joh 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt!"

    From these two passages we see that Jesus arrived in Bethany 6 days before Passover and 5 days before Passover rode into Jerusalem.

    Now Passover is the 14th, but goldenboy believes the 15th. Yet the question is whether the 6 days is inclusive or exclusive.
    We can determine this by following events in Mark, where we discover it is inclusive.
    So we have 9th arrive in Bethany, Possibly having started on the 8th and arriving at the start of the 9th (in the evening - at the start of the Sabbath):
    Joh 12:2 So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table.
    This is day 6.
    Then rides on donkey - 10th and Sunday - day 5.
    11th - day 4
    12th - day 3
    13th - day 2
    14th - day 1 the Passover

    goldenboy works then on an exclusive count. The big issue with that is it requires Jesus to ride on a donkey on the Sabbath, travelling further than was allowed etc, making an animal work etc.
    He can heal on the Sabbath, but he can't ride a donkey. Hmmm!
    Blessings
    GB

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

      Originally posted by goldenboy View Post
      Do you think that the children of Israel left Egypt on the beginning of the 14th, the day you claim is the day of the Passover celebration? That would be only the end of the 13th day of Nissan. The feast days are set up in accordance with the moon. Passover and Tabernacles are both designed to be celebrated on the full moon. That cannot occur before the end of the 14th.
      No I don't think they left Egypt at the beginning of the 14th.
      The beginning of the 14th is when they killed the lamb. They ate that lamb that night. The angel of the Lord passed over that night. They were to be dressed prepared to leave that night. This is ALL on the 14th.
      They received word to leave on the 14th in the morning. They ate the last of their leavened bread on the 14th. They left their homes on the 14th.
      However they didn't leave Egypt on the 14th.
      They met up and set out from Egypt on the 15th. They had no time to cook bread and so ate unleavened bread on the 15th. This continued to be so while they journeyed out of Egypt. I believe it took them a week until they were on the far side of the Red Sea before they could have time to cook bread again.

      I said that Tishri 1,10,15, and the 22nd are called Sabbaths(h7676) or sabbathons(h7677). The 10th to which you say I mistakenly quoted was the Day of Atonement, not the 10th day of the first month.
      Huh? Tishri 10 is NOT called a Sabbath it is not specified as such. It is a day to select the lamb, but there is no injunction to not work or any other ordinance of a Sabbath. The first of every month is a New Moon and is to be noted - though I can't find a single passage which says it IS to be treated as a Sabbath.
      15th is a High Sabbath. The 21st is also the Sabbath.

      Speaking of the 1st day of unleavened bread it says:
      Exo.12:16-...no manner of servile work shall be done in them, SAVE that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. [it is referring to both 1st & 7th days of UB].
      Lev.23:7-..."in the first day [of UB] ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
      Num.28:18- "In the first day [of UB] shall be a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

      The first day of UB is the 15th (which, according to you is not the Passover) is nowhere listed as a Sabbath. Nothing whatsoever is said about the 14th either way.. Only if you resort to the 15th as Passover can you even begin to argue for it being a Sabbath. Virtually the same is said for the 7th day of UB. Not a Sabbath. It says that no servile work shall be done, but only that which is to feed oneself. Not the same regulations as a weekly Sabbath.
      Nope, according to me, the 15th IS the first day of UB and IS the Sabbath. What I am saying is that the 15th is NOT the Passover.
      During the Passover a lot of Preparation is required and a lot of work. The lamb killed, the blood smeared, the lamb cooked and eaten, the leaven found and removed (eaten), the people dressed for leaving. This all happens on the 14th.
      The 15th though is the day of the Convocation - just as happened in the original event, the people left there homes and gathered together at Rameses and headed out.

      Exo 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.
      Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.
      Exo 12:18 In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.

      Note the 15th is Sabbath (1st day), 16th (2nd day), 17th (3rd day), 18th (4th day), 19th (5th day), 20th (6th day), 21st (7th day) and is a Sabbath. You have the 22nd as a Sabbath which would be the 8th day.

      FEAST OF TRUMPETS
      Lev.23:24,25- "...in the first day of the [7th] month, shall ye have a SABBATH(H7677,sabbathon), a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
      Num. 29:1-..."on the first day of the [7th] month, ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work; it is a day of blowing of trumpets. [not called a Sabbath here]
      The Feast of Trumpets is called a Sabbathon, meaning like a Sabbath. But the point is that it does have a Sabbath like designation. Passover does not.
      So you are agreeing with me that the Passover is NOT a Sabbaton nor a Sabbath.

      DAY OF ATONEMENT
      Lev.23:27ff-...ye shall afflict your souls,...28 And ye shall do NO WORK (as opposed to no SERVILE, none is allowed) in the same day;31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a SABBATH(h7676, SAME as a weekly Sabbath, not sabbathon) of rest....
      Here the Day of Atonement is the only day that is given equall billing with the weekly Sabbath. All other days designated as Sabbaths use the word H7677, sabbathon.
      Agreed it is a Sabbath.

      THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES
      Lev.23:35ff-On the first day (of Tabernacles) shall be a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36...on the 8th day shall be an holy convocation unto you: and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein 39 Also on the 15th day of the 7th month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a SABBATH(H7677, sabbathon) and on the 8th day shall be a SABBATH (H7677, sabbathon)

      Again I would say that the only days with a "Sabbath" designation other than the weekly Sabbath, are days found only in the month of Tishri.
      Incorrect. Sabbath and Sabbathon are the same word with a different ending. They are ALL Sabbaths. What you have found is simply that 10th Tishri speaks of a Sabbath without the -on ending.

      When we look at the word "prepare" it is only found in conjunction with the weekly Sabbath, perhaps allowing for the holy Sabbaths in Tishri, as well. But is only used with the word Sabbath. The only days that might be labeled as preparation days would have to be the day before a Sabbath. And Passover, even if you do concede that it is on the 15th, does not have anywhere that gives it a "Sabbath" designation.
      Incorrect as the gospels speak of the Day of Preparation before the Sabbathon:
      Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
      Do you know which word is used here? It is Sabbaton, not Sabbath. σαββάτων

      Mar 15:42 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
      And do you know what word is used here? prosabbaton, not prosabbat. προσάββατον

      The simple word for Sabbath in Greek is σάββασι.
      So your argument about Sabbath or Sabbaton is flawed.
      Sabbaton can simply mean a pluralty of Sabbaths or Sabbaths in general or the interval between Sabbaths. It is not a different word from Sabbath just like adding s doesn't mean the root is changed.

      THE "MEMORIAL" FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD
      Exo.12:14-And THIS DAY shall be unto you a memorial; and ye shall keep it a FEAST to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.
      The Passover shall be made a memorial by keeping a feast for 7 days. From the 15th to the 21st. Why would you memorialize a day without setting it aside as a "holy" day. Nothing is said of making the 14th a special day.
      You note the word DAY and then fail to realise it speaks of a SINGLE DAY.
      Exo 12:14 is speaking of the 14th.
      Exo 12:15 then speaks of the FUB which is NOT a DAY, but a whole week.

      The fact of the matter is the children of Israel journey 3 days before crossing the red sea.
      Numbers 33:
      33:3-And they departed from Ramses in the first month on the FIFTEENTH day of the first month; on the morrow after the Passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of the Egyptians.
      33:5-And the children of Israel removed from Ramses and pitched in Succoth.
      33:6-And they departed from Succoth and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness.
      33:7-And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baazephon: and they pitched before Midgol.
      33:8-And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passes through the midst of the sea into the wilderness and went three days journey in the wilderness of Etham and pitched in Marah.
      33:9-And they removed from Marah and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water and 70 palm trees and they pitched there.
      14th go to Rameses, 15th leave Rameses to Succoth (which is simply Booth - in other words a camp.), 16th leave Succoth to Etham, 17th leave Etham to Pihahiroth, 18th leave Pihahiroth through Red Sea 1st day. 19th 2nd day, 20th 3rd day to Marah, 21st leave Marah to Elim.
      This is assuming they move every night. So they have convocation at Rameses and they start eating unleavened bread and do so until the 22nd when they have pitched at Elim.

      As I know you are aware, each day begins at sundown. The children of Israel were told to leave during that night and told to leave.
      Exo. 12:30ff-And Pharaoh rose up in the night...31-And he called for Moses and Aaron by night and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said. 33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste...

      Do you still honestly think that they would celebrate THAT NIGHT, "that day shall be unto you a memorial; ...ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever", on the day that precedes the day that they left, AS A MEMORIAL?.
      Yes, they celebrate the Passover BEFORE they celebrate the journey.
      It is confused thinking to claim a DAY is a WEEK.
      The Passover celebrates God breaking the power of slavery (sin) over them.
      The FUB celebrates a life without leaven (sin) and following God to the Promised Land.
      Two celebrations entwined with each other, yet the second can't happen without the first.

      THE PREPARATION DAY IS THE DAY BEFORE THE SABBATH
      Mark 15:42-And now WHEN THE EVENING WAS COME, because it was the day before the Sabbath, [43] Joseph of Arimathea....came and craved the body of Jesus.
      If you cannot see here that the day has changed from one day to the next, I don't know how to open your eyes. It clearly says that evening HAD/WAS come, that Joseph then had to first go boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. There is no question that the day has changed. From Thursday to Friday, the day before the Sabbath.
      I can see you struggle with language and how it is used.
      The evening itself had not yet come. It was STILL DAY. There would be no urgency to get the body buried if there was full 24 hours BEFORE the Sabbath starts.
      In fact we are told this:
      Mar 15:47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
      Mar 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

      Now why if this was the START of the Day of Preparation did the women wait until AFTER the Sabbath was passed. Why didn't they get the spices and anoint Him that day?
      This is confirmed here:
      Mat 27:61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the tomb.
      The Guard at the Tomb
      Mat 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate

      So Matthew states that it is the Day AFTER Preparation when the Chief Priests come to Pilate.
      This means it is ON the Day of Preparation when Jesus was killed.

      Joh 19:13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic Gabbatha.
      Joh 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!"
      Joh 19:15 They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."

      John spells it out in case you don;t understand - "the day of Preparation of the Passover". Not the Day of Preparation for the Sabbath. In fact I can't find anywhere in the Bible which speaks of a Day of Preparation for any Sabbath - ONLY for the Passover.

      So, now if you want to claim that they didn't eat unleavened bread on the Passover, on the 15th, when it is strictly forbidden, Then you are misguided.
      Exo.12:19-...for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that sould shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
      You might get away with believing that about Jesus, but not all of the disciples. I reject the idea that the disciples ate leavened bread on the Passover.
      Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
      GB
      As my point is that the 100% did eat bread which was leavened for the meal, then it confirms for us that they did NOT eat on the 15th which is the 1st day of the FUB. Instead we know they ate on the 14th, which was the Day of Preparation of the Passover, when the Angel passed over.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

        Originally posted by goldenboy View Post
        He can heal on the Sabbath, but he can't ride a donkey. Hmmm!
        Blessings
        GB
        Did Jesus work? Did Jesus cause others to work? What does scripture say about making animals work for you on the Sabbath?
        Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
        Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
        Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

        Was Jesus doing good on the Sabbath by riding a donkey? Was He healing the donkey, or saving its life? So do you think Jesus broke this commandment?

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
          Did Jesus work? Did Jesus cause others to work? What does scripture say about making animals work for you on the Sabbath?
          Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
          Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
          Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

          Was Jesus doing good on the Sabbath by riding a donkey? Was He healing the donkey, or saving its life? So do you think Jesus broke this commandment?
          And it came to pass that he went thru the corn fields on the Sabbath day and his disciples began as they went to pluck the ears of corn.
          And the Pharisees said unto him why do they do on the Sabbath that which is not lawful to do?
          And he said unto them the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.
          Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.
          Blessings
          GB

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

            And so what was the result?
            And the multitudes that went before and that which followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
            Blessings
            GB

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

              [QUOTE]
              Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
              No, Jesus spoke almost exclusively of this very promised and prophesied kingdom, promised to Israel... because that is to whom He primarily came to speak unto first. Every time He mentioned "the kingdom of the heavens," it was in reference to this very thing (rather than the [faulty] idea of "up in heaven" as the Amill-teaching, and Preterist-teaching, etc, has it, regarding this phrase).
              [see Matthew 25:1, as well as Matthew 25:10nasb "wedding feast/supper"... and Matthew 22:2nasb, as well as Matthew 22:9-14nasb; and other passages with the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" (it's located ON THE EARTH)]

              So I totally disagree that it was first introduced in John's writing of Revelation. (Isaiah 24:21-23 aligns with Rev19, for example).
              I have re-read the verses you quoted. Kingdom of heaven meant exactly what it means. It means kingdom in heaven,not kingdom on earth.


              I disagree, per previously stated reasons (including an earlier post in this thread).
              I had this discussion with you and the other member few years ago on rr forum,concerning kingdom of heaven is whether or not kingdom on earth. So looks like this discussion can drag on for days on this forum. If Jesus' message to Israel is the kingdom on earth,knowing that it won't be fulfilled for at least 2000 years,would the message of kingdom in heaven is more urgent than kingdom on earth? Why would Jesus preach the message of kingdom on earth,by skipping kingdom in heaven which has lasted almost 2000 years since the first advent?

              If you were Jesus,which message do you prefer to preach first? Kingdom in heaven,or kingdom in earth?

              Those following "Jewish tradition" are ones saying [differently to what I'm saying] things like:

              --"no man knows the day or the hour" refers to RAPTURE-timing (it's NOT; these are "2nd Coming to the earth" passages)

              --"no man knows the day or hour" refers to RAPTURE on Rosh Hashanah (the "rapture" is NOT found in the context of the Olivet Discourse, so no, this idiom is not referring to our rapture, but His 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, per context)

              --and these do NOT distinguish between "the marriage" and "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and therefore, are incorrectly having Jesus coming to MARRY 10 [or even 5] virgins [plural]--this is NOT "the marriage" but "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel])

              So, your suggestion that my posts are following "Jewish tradition" is not accurate.

              I gave the explanation in an earlier post or posts.
              The plain reading (of Rev19:7) is that "the marriage" has taken place. By contrast, it is NOT said that "the wedding feast/supper" has already taken place (Rev19:9). That's where the Bridegroom WITH His "Bride/Wife [singular]" is now headed (and where the other passages regarding it, show it to be when He "returns FROM the wedding" THEN the meal! Luke 12:36-37,40; etc)
              No man knows the day and hour is referred to rapture. And it has nothing to do with Rosh Hashana. In Olivert Discourse,preceding to this event,men are drinking,eating,marrying and giving in marriage. They live their lives as business as usual. This could not the case in tribulation. Like I said,Olivert Discourse is divided into two parts. Verse 5 to 31 lists the events in tribulation that leads to Jesus' return in verse 30,while the topic has been changed to rapture from verse 36 to 41.

              The marriage of the Lamb in verse 7 and the marriage supper of the Lamb in verse 9 are the same event. The wife in verse 7 is the church,a single entity,while "they which are called unto this marriage supper of the Lamb" are the individual members of the church. Verse 9 breaks into more detail to explain who the wife is.


              I've already stated previously, that in Revelation 19:7, "the marriage" has already taken place (in heaven!)... and He's coming/returning (to the earth) as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (including the OT saints who will be "[bodily] resurrected" [to stand again on the earth] "AT THE END OF THE DAYS" [the END of the "days" referred to in that chapter, Daniel 12--the END of the 70th-Week], and so will be present AT "the wedding feast/supper"/MK, ON THE EARTH [I gave those Scriptures earlier])
              The wedding and the supper have both been taken place in heaven. You can read my comment above.If the supper is delayed until the earth,Jesus could have spoken so. But nowhere in scripture to support your claim. Your claim is based on your supposition,and erroneous reading of kingdom of heaven being kingdom on earth.

              And concerning if old testament saints being resurrected after Jesus' return,I totally in disagreement with you. See Isaiah 26:19-21.

              Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

              20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

              21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

              The dead men shall live,together with Isaiah's body shall they arise,enter into the chambers,until indignation be overpast. They shall be resurrected with the church in the event rapture. And they shall be hidden from tribulation,til God's indignation is overpast.

              I have brought up this statement on rr few years ago. I don't understand why you still don't get it.


              People will have been dying throughout much of the 7-yr period as well.

              When do you say that the Sheep and goat separation/judgment takes place, Matthew 25:31-34, where it says "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations: [...]"

              I believe this is after His 2nd Coming to the earth, and that these Sheep of the Gentile nations will be "blessed" to enter the Millennial Kingdom time period (which is "the wedding feast/supper" [Revelation 19:9 "blessed" (Daniel 12:12 "blessed")]). So how do you explain this, in light of what you have suggested?
              I don't see the sheep and goat judgment contradicts to my thought. All Jesus' teaching including Olivert Discourse "stops" at his second coming. There is no details given to how millennial kingdom is like. But much details are given to how the kingdom of heaven can be inherited. Parable of ten virgins,parable of the talents are classic example,especially it begins with the words "kingdom of heaven". You can also find the many parables Jesus given in four gospels.

              No. It's because many people are "invited" to the wedding feast/supper (the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom). The "invitation" is in Matthew 24:14 (and includes 26:13) preached DURING the 7-yrs leading UP TO His 2nd Coming to the earth (FOR the MK).

              A "bride/wife [singular]" is not "invited" to her own wedding feast/supper, but is present there WITH her bridegroom (in this case, The Bridegroom WITH His "Bride/Wife [singular]" [already-wed, before they "return" FOR "the wedding feast/supper"/the MK]).
              So what you are saying is the invitation will be sent out during the tribulation. Is this how Jesus invites his guest to a wedding supper by unleashing a horrified event that lasts 7 years long,which also sees 1/3 population perished? And to qualify this invitation,beside coming to Jesus first,people need to escape from the seals,trumpets,vials judgment,and even find way to survive the global nuclear warfare. If I were one of the left behind,I would rather choose dying at the beginning of tribulation,and go straight to heaven to be with the Lord.

              Think again,is this how Jesus sends out his invitation during tribulation? You need to understand one of the purpose of tribulation is to give people a second chance to come to him.


              Totally disagree.

              This is an event which follows "the marriage" (which has already occurred by this point)... and is "the wedding feast/supper" (the earthly MK, upon His "return"). Only those who will be ready will be permitted to enter into the (earthly) Millennial Kingdom time period, following His "return" [Luke 12:36-37,40,42-44, and parallel passages].

              Many people incorrectly read INTO these passages a "rapture" idea (which is NOT its context here... but is revealed and explained elsewhere).
              You need to understand the sole purpose of Jesus giving the parable of ten virgins is to teach us how to inherit the kingdom of heaven in verse 1.His teaching is real simple,listed in verse 13.

              13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

              He teaches us to constantly watch for his return. Because if we stop watching,some of us will fall back into secular life style,being occupied with the material life,loving the world more than loving our Lord. The same applies to the parable of the talents in the same chapter. These parables teaches us how to inherit the kingdom in heaven. And it has nothing to do with the wedding feast in millennia kingdom. You are jumping too quick into the kingdom on earth.And rapture is taught by Jesus in verse 11.

              11 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

              This is an actual invitation/rapture from Jesus,to take us into the kingdom in heaven. For those who fail to watch for his return,loving the world more than loving our Lord,they shall be left behind.


              Over the course of many years, I've tried on for size many of these ideas, including the one you are presenting here. It may seem fairly reasonable, but I find a fault with it (which makes it fall far short of the chronology I have) which makes it only so-so, and that is, NOTHING of significance falls at the 1260d-mark (nor at the mark of 1290d and/or 1335d, if you even toss those into the mix of this particular time-frame you have suggested). So for me, I'll stick with the one that has many more alignments (than merely two seemingly decent ones that you've pointed to, in this), including the earlier reference I made (regarding the timing of Rev19).


              And, by the way, I too have mentioned the "spring 2nd Coming [to the earth]" idea because of Hosea 5:15-6:3 [you referred to] and Psalm 72:6 [in the "King" chapter] (among others).
              God is very precise when he gives forth those days,including 1260 days. His purpose doing so bears no relevance with you understanding or not. This is not for you to find out. These days are for the left behind to calculate the return of our Lord. As a matter of fact,I believe the 1260 days in the second half of tribulation coincides with the 1260 days of Jesus' ministry,which begins on Cheshvan 25,and ends on Passover 3.5 years/1260 days later. But that will be another subject to discuss.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                And concerning if old testament saints being resurrected after Jesus' return,I totally in disagreement with you. See Isaiah 26:19-21.

                Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

                20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

                21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

                The dead men shall live,together with Isaiah's body shall they arise,enter into the chambers,until indignation be overpast. They shall be resurrected with the church in the event rapture. And they shall be hidden from tribulation,til God's indignation is overpast.
                Isaiah 26:17-21 is NOT in reference to "the rapture"...

                Instead, it correlates with that which will happen REGARDING ISRAEL [living/mortals] at a certain future time period (while the still live ON THE EARTH), and correlates with these passages ON THE SAME SUBJECT:

                --Romans 11:15 "For if the casting away of them [Israe] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead?"

                --Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel--"revive us" "raise us up" "live"]

                --Ezekiel 37:12-14 [Re: Israel (same as above: see Ezekiel 37 fuller context--"can these bone LIVE")]

                --Daniel 12:1-3 [reading these details, one should NOT conclude that these are referring to "formerly-deceased" persons. It is NOT. It is referring to "ISRAEL" [living-mortals] coming up out of the "graveyard of nations" (see the previous passage listed above)]

                --and John 6:39 [as DISTINCT FROM those in John 6:40]



                ALL THESE PASSAGES refer to "ISRAEL [the nation]" coming up out of the "graveyard of nations" at a specific future time period (within the future 70th-Wk/7-yrs--the "DARK" portion of "the Day of the Lord [long TIME PERIOD]").

                So no, this passage is NOT saying that the OT saints will be "raptured"... This passage says "HIDE THYSELF [ACTIVE]" whereas the rapture is what is done unto us (we are passive recipients).

                I believe that passage (having to do with ISRAEL) is when they obey this passage and do so [ACTIVELY] WITHIN the tribulation [7] years.

                Daniel 12:13 says (of Daniel, an OT saint), "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [in death], and stand in thy lot [resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the end of the days." At the "END of the days" referred to in Daniel 12 (the END of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs--NOT before, as is true of our rapture).]

                "The rapture" pertains only to "the Church which is His body" (and takes place BEFORE this time period).

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                  Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  I insist on TWO harvest FEASTS. TWO times stated as when the Harvest is brought in. There are TWO threshing floors - one at the start of the Spring, the other at the end of the Summer. This is FACT. Whether it takes them two weeks to bring in the harvest or two months is immaterial. The point is that they thresh out the grain in late Summer. They do NOT have an Autumn harvest. What you do between harvesting is prepare the ground, plant and pray for rain, go fishing, hunting or whatever. You also spend time preserving what has been harvested so that it lasts through the autumn and winter.
                  I base what I am highlighting off what the Bible states and is in reference to Dan 2:35.
                  You like to insist on things that don't make sense. I have attached a link of the ancient Israel harvest season. I hope this will open your mind.

                  https://www.gci.org/law/festivals/harvest

                  Quote

                  [ In ancient Israel the primary harvest season extended from April to November. This harvest period might be subdivided into three seasons and three major crops: the spring grain harvest, the summer grape harvest and the autumn olive harvest. These harvests have a general correspondence with the festivals. Some grain might be harvested after Pentecost, threshing and grape-picking might overlap, and the olive harvest came both before and after the Festival of Tabernacles. ]

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                    [QUOTE]
                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    Wow!
                    Jesus states explicitly that He desires to share this meal with them, and then you conclude that He doesn't eat this meal with them. I am not sure there is anything else which can be said.
                    Up to now,I still don't understand how you read scripture. It seems like you only focus on one part,while ignoring the other part. Jesus says with desire he would like to eat this meal with them (verse 15),but he will not eat anymore thereof with them (verse 16). It clearly indicates he has withdrawn his desire to eat this meal in verse 16.


                    My focus is not on the cup, but the WHOLE meal, where Jesus ate and drank.
                    All 3 synoptic gospels record only ONE cup.
                    Luke speaks of it twice.
                    My focus is whether Jesus drank and partake the meal. Matthew and Mark recorded one cup,while Luke recorded two cups. What is in you that don't understand scripture,and insists one cup being accounted for in Luke?


                    Nope, Luke 22 is not chronological but stating a point which is made.
                    Luke 17 IS from the Olivet Discourse yet Luke records it connected to another section of his writing. Note the Olivet Discourse is recorded in Luke 21, yet Luke recounts this in Luke 17 before Jesus reaches Jerusalem.
                    As for your body, corpse, yes they are different words - yet BOTH relate to a dead person.
                    As for eagles, the word can mean all sorts of birds including vultures.
                    The simple FACT is that Luke 17 relates to the SAME event as Matt 24 and does not speak of the rapture event. You have NO need to flee the rapture - in fact it will do you no good.
                    Luke 22:14-20 is in chronological order. The first cup is most likely before the meal,while the cup after the supper is the 4th cup.

                    Luke 17 is in accord with Olivert Discourse. Jesus begins with his physical return in verse 24,while in Olivert Discourse he gave a much detailed account there,by pointing the events that leads to his second coming in Matthew 24:30. Then he moves on to discuss the revealing of Son of man in Luke 17 verse 30. Revealing of Son of man has nothing to do with his physical return. He shall be revealed or make known to the world in the event of rapture. This is what revealing means.It's not the physical return.

                    Luke 17 verse 26-29 is same as Matthew 24:36-39.,while verse 30 is the rapture when Son of man is revealed/made known to the world. The rest of verses in Luke 17:31-36 correspond to Matthew 24:40-41.

                    Luke 17 gives a solid evidence of pre-tribulation rapture. Verse 24 is the physical return of Jesus. Verse 30 is how revealing of Son of man shall occur by the event rapture.

                    And concerning the body and eagles in verse 37,the body in Luke is Greek word Soma. They mean body/flesh . In Matthew 24:28,carcase is Greek word ptoma which means corpses. Body/flesh is quite different than corpses.


                    Why would asking a Pastor help? The Words are there for anyone to read.
                    But not everyone like you only reads one cup.


                    I get the impression you have a hard time understanding there is ONLY ONE cup in view in Luke 22. It is the 4th cup AFTER supper.
                    It's not me,but you having a hard time understanding two cups in Luke's account.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                      Isaiah 26:17-21 is NOT in reference to "the rapture"...

                      Instead, it correlates with that which will happen REGARDING ISRAEL [living/mortals] at a certain future time period (while the still live ON THE EARTH), and correlates with these passages ON THE SAME SUBJECT:

                      --Romans 11:15 "For if the casting away of them [Israe] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but life from the dead?"

                      --Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel--"revive us" "raise us up" "live"]

                      --Ezekiel 37:12-14 [Re: Israel (same as above: see Ezekiel 37 fuller context--"can these bone LIVE")]

                      --Daniel 12:1-3 [reading these details, one should NOT conclude that these are referring to "formerly-deceased" persons. It is NOT. It is referring to "ISRAEL" [living-mortals] coming up out of the "graveyard of nations" (see the previous passage listed above)]

                      --and John 6:39 [as DISTINCT FROM those in John 6:40]



                      ALL THESE PASSAGES refer to "ISRAEL [the nation]" coming up out of the "graveyard of nations" at a specific future time period (within the future 70th-Wk/7-yrs--the "DARK" portion of "the Day of the Lord [long TIME PERIOD]").

                      So no, this passage is NOT saying that the OT saints will be "raptured"... This passage says "HIDE THYSELF [ACTIVE]" whereas the rapture is what is done unto us (we are passive recipients).

                      I believe that passage (having to do with ISRAEL) is when they obey this passage and do so [ACTIVELY] WITHIN the tribulation [7] years.

                      Daniel 12:13 says (of Daniel, an OT saint), "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [in death], and stand in thy lot [resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the end of the days." At the "END of the days" referred to in Daniel 12 (the END of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs--NOT before, as is true of our rapture).]

                      "The rapture" pertains only to "the Church which is His body" (and takes place BEFORE this time period).
                      Nope,Isaiah 26 is a prophecy. It begins with the establishment of Lord's kingdom in Jerusalem.

                      Isaiah 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

                      The opening of gates to all nations.

                      2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

                      3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

                      4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

                      Judgment on wicked

                      5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust.

                      6The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.

                      Praising Lord's righteousness

                      7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.

                      Desire to see the Lord

                      8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.

                      9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness (probably speaks of the millennial kingdom)

                      Praying for judgment to come,chastening of the unrighteous,wicked from verse 10 to 18

                      10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

                      11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

                      Verse 19 to 20 prophesied the resurrection of Isaiah's dead body and the rest,entering into chamber,until God's indignation be overpast. And this indignation period ends with the Lord's coming in verse 21.

                      21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                        Isaiah 11 speaks of the future restoration of Israel.

                        Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

                        2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

                        3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

                        4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

                        5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

                        Strange things happen during this reign of Christ in his holy mountain.

                        6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

                        7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

                        8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

                        9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

                        10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

                        But my focus is on verse 11.

                        11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

                        The key word for study is "again the second time". This is the second time that God shall rescue his people. It speaks of Jesus' second advent to recover the remnant of his people,from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.But to have a second time,there needs to be a "first time" event in history.

                        Many bible scholars,including many Christians,and myself,believe the “first” time, implied in the “second,” was obviously that of the Exodus. Now,from biblical history,we learn that God likes to repeat an event on a same chosen date. God descent on mount Sinai on Pentecost/Shavuot. Holy Spirit came upon the apostles on Pentecost/Shavuot. This is why many Christians speculate that Jesus shall descend on a future Pentecost and call his church home.

                        Having said this,it's not too far off by speculating that this second deliverance on his people Israel shall occur on a future Passover ,just like the first deliverance that God did on the previous Passover that took place in 1446 BC.

                        11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

                        Amen.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                          Originally posted by opoiuq
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                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                            Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                            But my focus is on verse 11.
                            11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

                            The key word for study is "again the second time". This is the second time that God shall rescue his people. It speaks of Jesus' second advent to recover the remnant of his people,from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.But to have a second time,there needs to be a "first time" event in history.

                            Many bible scholars,including many Christians,and myself,believe the “first” time, implied in the “second,” was obviously that of the Exodus. Now,from biblical history,we learn that God likes to repeat an event on a same chosen date. God descent on mount Sinai on Pentecost/Shavuot. Holy Spirit came upon the apostles on Pentecost/Shavuot. This is why many Christians speculate that Jesus shall descend on a future Pentecost and call his church home.
                            Why would anyone think the first time is the Exodus?
                            In order for there to be a first time requires that the people need to have been exiled a first time.
                            The time in Egypt was not an exile, nor were the people scattered abroad, for they were all together as one nation.
                            So when were the people exiled the first time? In 722 BC AFTER Isaiah was written. Yet did they return from that exile? No.
                            The next time they were exiled was 586 BC. Did they return from that exile? Yes they did.
                            When did they return?
                            Ezr 3:1 When the seventh month came, and the children of Israel were in the towns, the people gathered as one man to Jerusalem.
                            Ezr 3:2 Then arose Jeshua the son of Jozadak, with his fellow priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel with his kinsmen, and they built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the Law of Moses the man of God.
                            Ezr 3:3 They set the altar in its place, for fear was on them because of the peoples of the lands, and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, burnt offerings morning and evening.
                            Ezr 3:4 And they kept the Feast of Booths, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number according to the rule, as each day required,
                            Ezr 3:5 and after that the regular burnt offerings, the offerings at the new moon and at all the appointed feasts of the LORD, and the offerings of everyone who made a freewill offering to the LORD.

                            So we find that though they left on an unknown date, we know they arrived on the 7th month and congregated as God had commanded them. In time for which Feast?
                            The Feast of Booths.

                            So if we look at Isaiah we find it doesn't point to Exodus, but to a return from EXILE. This point s then to the Feast of Booths.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                              Originally posted by 2ndcoming View Post
                              You like to insist on things that don't make sense. I have attached a link of the ancient Israel harvest season. I hope this will open your mind.

                              https://www.gci.org/law/festivals/harvest
                              In ancient Israel the primary harvest season extended from April to November. This harvest period might be subdivided into three seasons and three major crops: the spring grain harvest, the summer grape harvest and the autumn olive harvest. These harvests have a general correspondence with the festivals. Some grain might be harvested after Pentecost, threshing and grape-picking might overlap, and the olive harvest came both before and after the Festival of Tabernacles.
                              Sorry, but your link doesn't support your cause in the slightest.
                              This is because of at least three reasons:
                              1) Most importantly the Bible (which should be your source of what is important) ONLY mentions TWO harvests. You continue to ignore this.
                              2) The Olive harvest, which the author of this link claims extends beyond the Summer harvest - which for some bizarre reason he calls BOTH the Summer harvest AND the Autumn harvest - he also puts this:
                              Fourteen weeks after Pentecost, shortly before the Feast of Trumpets, was the new olive oil festival. No one could use new olives until some oil had been offered (columns 21-22).
                              So though the author states it is mainly after the Feast of Booths, yet he states you have to have olives harvested AND pressed into oil BEFORE the Feast of Trumpets which is TWO weeks BEFORE the Feast of Booths. So in fact the Olives and Grapes ARE harvested BEFORE the Feast of Booths.
                              3) Also very important, we are considering the SUMMER THRESHING floor. So we are told it is SUMMER, and thus what Harvest connects with Summer is most important - and this is the Feast of Booths. Also it is a THRESHING floor. You don't use a Threshing floor for fruit, ONLY grains. However we read this in Deuteronomy (which the author notes):
                              Deu 16:13 "You shall keep the Feast of Booths seven days, when you have gathered in the produce from your threshing floor and your winepress.

                              So the link you have provided does NOT discount a single thing I have stated. The only thing he suggests which is a bit disconnected is the harvest of olives, which in the same article he notes must have started BEFORE the Feast of Trumpets, yet he calls an Autumn Harvest, yet then we find he has the Summer and Autumn Harvest as one. Is this because he mixes the Israeli Summer Harvest into his own Autumn harvest. Not really clear.
                              What is clear though is that this author also notes that all the threshing floor IS connected with the Feast of Booths, which is what I have stated.
                              So it is clear that the "Summer Threshing Floor" refers to the Feast of Booths.
                              Everything you have posted so far points to the Feast of Booths, so it has been useful you putting these thoughts up.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Matthew 26:29,the unfinished passover seder and marriage supper of the Lamb

                                I would just wonder why it is compared to this (in verses 15-16):

                                "[...]and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
                                16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

                                Comment

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