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  • 144,000 (Moved to ETC from NiC)

    I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

    Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

  • #2
    Originally posted by creedfan View Post
    I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

    Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

    I have always thought it was 144,000 churches.
    "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
    -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

    "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

    Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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    • #3
      Revelation 7:2-8 tells us who the 144,000 are:

      2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
      5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
      6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
      7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
      8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
      of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

      The 144,000 are (Messianic) Jews (believers in Christ) who are "sealed" by God as His servants during the period of tribulation when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth...Many believe that these are (for lack of a better term) "Tribulation Evangelists" who carry the Gospel even as God is getting people's attention through supernatural means, although this is subject to debate in some circles.

      Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.
      Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



      ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


      A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

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      • #4
        That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.
        "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
        -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

        "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

        Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

        Comment


        • #5
          I think McGiver pretty well answered the OP. So I guess I would just say '+1" to his post.

          Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.


          Agreed. I have heard the argument for a pre-trib 'rapture' (not fond of the extra-scriptural term) that says those martyred out of the tribulation (rev 6:9) were of the 144,000.....
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Revinius View Post
            That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.
            Depending on one's eschatology, I can see how that could be confusing.

            Just take a look at end times chat...

            Never the less, the scripture records that the 144,000 are of the twelve tribes of Israel...and really, in the context of the passage (being incredibly specific) there really isn't a way that I can see to take as an analogy that which is written.

            JMO
            Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



            ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


            A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

            Comment


            • #7
              McGyver - do people get board (bored) alot in the Plywood State?

              It does depend on your eschatology. For me the book is very symbolical as it
              states in the Rev.1:1 - communicated or signified..

              In the list of 12 Tribes Levi and Joseph are not recognized as tribes and two
              are missing, Dan and Ephraim who was a very powerful tribe, so why the error?
              Maybe to show us, don't take it literally.

              Rev.6:11 - after asking God to stop the persecution, God says wait until the number
              is complete of those who will die in this persecution and that number was 144,000
              not literally but to show God knows those who are His.

              When they had died, they came back with Christ Rev.14:1-5 and put a stop
              to the Roman persecution. Again has to be symbolic because they are all
              male virgins, Rev.14:4;

              But then if you see this as yet to be; then of course we will disagree.

              RJ

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              • #8
                Hello Creed,

                It is written:

                -Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Rev 14:1

                So they have God`s character, let`s keep reading to know more characteristics about them:

                And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

                And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

                These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. Rev 14:2-4.


                I think 144,000 is not a literal number of people, but a symbolic number [but I do not have any argument about it], and about the last part defiled with women comes to be they are not defiled with false teachings, of fallen churches, who rejected the present truth.

                They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. Rev 14:4b,5.

                They follow the Lamb even with their prayers when Jesus will have left the most holy place in the sactuary, then they will address their prayers to Him coming in the clouds [is a diferent kind of prayer to the one uttered when Jesus is in the most Holy place. It can be read in the next verses in Revelation chapter 14:15:

                Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."


                Furthermore they are alive in the second coming of Jesus, and they rejected the mark of the beast

                "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Rev 14:12

                Last edited by ƒσяєяυииєя; Dec 2nd 2008, 07:03 PM.
                Stay healthy

                "Think white and get serious"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by RJ Mac View Post
                  In the list of 12 Tribes Levi and Joseph are not recognized as tribes and two
                  are missing, Dan and Ephraim who was a very powerful tribe, so why the error?
                  Maybe to show us, don't take it literally.
                  Joseph's inheritance was divided between his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. So Joseph was removed from the 12 tribes and then there were 13. When God brought the Israelites into the promised land He did not give Levi any land - they were the priestly tribe. Now we are back down to 12 again.

                  In Revelation 7 we find Ephraim and Dan left out. As for the tribe of Dan - Ahab married Jezebel and worshiped Baal.
                  Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
                  And concerning Ephraim:
                  Hos 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
                  With Joseph and Levi added back in, the number is now back to 12, the number of Jewish government. God could not be more plain that these are literally 144,000 men. - He even lists 12,000 from each tribe. He knows exactly which tribe every single Jew who ever lived belongs to.


                  Originally posted by Revinius
                  That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.
                  The time of the gentiles will be fulfilled. God's heart turns back to the Jews, who as a nation has been blinded. The 144,000 Jewish male virgins are preaching the gospel of the kingdom - the Kingdom that the disciples thought was happening at the time Jesus first came - to be their earthly King. The time for that is coming, and that is the gospel that these Jews will be preaching.

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                  • #10
                    144,000

                    Originally posted by creedfan View Post
                    I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

                    Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

                    According to the Watchtower Witnesses, the “kingdom” or “the church” will consist ultimately of only 144,000 people who will be in heaven. Supposedly, this “ruling body” will exercise authority over the rest of those receiving eternal life, who will live upon God’s glorified earth.



                    The Witnesses appeal to Revelation 7:4ff and 14:1ff as proof for this unorthodox concept. The theory is false for many reasons.
                    1. The kingdom/church is frequently represented in the New Testament as existing on earth (cf. Revelation 1:4,6,9).
                    2. After the return of Christ, there will be no earth, for it will have been utterly destroyed at the Judgment (Matthew 25:46; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1).
                    3. There is but “one hope” (Ephesians 4:4) for the faithful, and it is heaven (1 Peter 1:3,4). Watchtower doctrine argues for two hopes—heaven or earth.
                    4. The numeral “thousand” is used more than twenty times in the book of Revelation and not once is it employed literally.

                    The 144,000, mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14, is a symbolic number as evidenced by the following facts.
                    1. If it is literal in chapter 7, only Jews would be in heaven (see 7:4ff). The fact that Dan is omitted, Joseph is classified as a “tribe,” and Levi is included demonstrates that the description is figurative. Moreover, in addition to the 144,000, there was a “great multitude” there (7:9).
                    2. If the numeral is literal in chapter 14, only unmarried men will be in heaven, for the group consisted of virgins who had not been defiled with women (14:4). Note also that they follow the “Lamb” wherever He goes. Is that a literal or figurative lamb?

                    If Revelation 7:4 is literal, only Jews will be in Heaven. If Revelation 14:1 is literal only unmarried men will be in Heaven. Both statements are obviously false.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by creedfan View Post
                      I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

                      Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

                      hi creedfan

                      Like alot of people said, it depends on you escotaligy view.
                      I believe the bible says that the 144000 will be Gods prophets during the end times. The will proclaim a gospel that this world has not heard for 2000 years. I believe the 12 tribes symbolize that they will come from every tribe, language and nation. They will be spiritual Jews. They will be given the little scroll to eat, and proclaim the last messege before Jesus comes for his people.

                      bennie

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mcgyver View Post
                        Depending on one's eschatology, I can see how that could be confusing.

                        Just take a look at end times chat...

                        Never the less, the scripture records that the 144,000 are of the twelve tribes of Israel...and really, in the context of the passage (being incredibly specific) there really isn't a way that I can see to take as an analogy that which is written.

                        JMO
                        I find that inconsistent with Pauls theology in Galatians 4 where he defines what being 'chosen' is. But yeah, i understand there are different views, although i would be unloving to not at least attempt to point out an inconsistency if i see it.
                        "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
                        -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                        "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

                        Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ezer Kenegdo View Post
                          The time of the gentiles will be fulfilled. God's heart turns back to the Jews, who as a nation has been blinded. The 144,000 Jewish male virgins are preaching the gospel of the kingdom - the Kingdom that the disciples thought was happening at the time Jesus first came - to be their earthly King. The time for that is coming, and that is the gospel that these Jews will be preaching.
                          There are no longer Jew or Gentile, salvation was offered up first to them (as per Paul), but other than that i see no biblical reason to presuppose they will somehow be held above Gentiles (given that there is no longer such a distinction).
                          "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
                          -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                          "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

                          Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Revinius View Post
                            There are no longer Jew or Gentile, salvation was offered up first to them (as per Paul), but other than that i see no biblical reason to presuppose they will somehow be held above Gentiles (given that there is no longer such a distinction).
                            Well I don't want to debate, and I do believe that there is no Jew nor Gentile "in Christ", but I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel. I believe they are blinded for now, but at some point the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and God will turn his heart back to the Jews - just as now there are many Gentiles believing, and few Jews, I believe at that time there will be many Jews believing, and few Gentiles, although the gospel at that time will not be the gospel of salvation, but of the Kingdom - the coming Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron. The "gospel of the kingdom" that the 144,000 blood-line Jews will be preaching - just like John the Baptist.

                            The phrase "new earth" is found 4 times in the bible - twice in the OT and twice in the NT. I believe that when I die I'll go to Heaven to be with the Lord, but that when Christ returns I will return with him and our home will then be with God on Earth forever.

                            (Isa 65:17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

                            (Isa 66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

                            (2Pe 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

                            (Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
                            If this post has crossed the line where debating is concerned please delete it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mcgyver View Post
                              Revelation 7:2-8 tells us who the 144,000 are:

                              2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
                              5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
                              6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
                              7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
                              8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
                              of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

                              The 144,000 are (Messianic) Jews (believers in Christ) who are "sealed" by God as His servants during the period of tribulation when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth...Many believe that these are (for lack of a better term) "Tribulation Evangelists" who carry the Gospel even as God is getting people's attention through supernatural means, although this is subject to debate in some circles.

                              Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.
                              I believe the 144,000 represents those saved from the OT time prior to the cross. The difference in number showing the true significance of the cross. Whether the 144,000 is literal or not is not important, but the fact that after the cross and the gospel going unto all the world, we find a great multitude that no man can number becoming saved.

                              Here in Rev 7 we see the sealing of the 144,000 prior to Pentecost. We find the same 144,000 in Rev 14 before the Lamb of God. They could not go to heaven until after Christ literally fulfilled His work on the cross. No one could enter into heaven before Christ went there to prepare a place for them. So these 144,000 died in faith, without receiving the promise of a dwelling place built without hands, eternal in heaven (Heb 11). This is why the 144,000 were sealed before Christ' first advent. We find this sealing/marking of these OT saints also in Eze 9.

                              What is the significance of separating OT believers (144,000) from NT believers (great multitude)? It shows us the importance of Christ and His cross. Before Christ literally became the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, very few were saved. Although the Holy Spirit worked in the OT to save the people of God, the fullness of the Holy Spirit, when He came to indwell the people of God, guiding and teaching them, did not come until Christ ascended into heaven and sent Him to indwell His people. We get the full significance, the fullness of salvation in Christ after Pentecost in realizing that without Christ and His work on the cross very few people would be saved. It's really a shame that so many people miss the significance seen in this 144,000 small remnant before Christ and the great multitude that no man can number after Christ. What a difference the cross of Christ makes to all the peoples of the world.

                              Many Blessings,
                              RW

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