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  • Discussion Who are these mortals in the millennial kingdom

    Who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom
    The question asked.
    Originally posted by John146 View Post
    Why do you have flesh and blood (people still with their mortal bodies) inheriting the kingdom when 1 Cor 15:50 clearly says that is not possible?


    1 Corinthians 15:50-54
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    No it is not impossible for flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50-54 is talking about the rapture of the church. Let’s look at Revelation for a minute.

    Revelation 6:15-17
    15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    Revelation 7:1-3
    1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

    So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

    Ezekiel 9:1-6
    1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
    3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
    5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

    The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?

    1 Thessalonians 1:10
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



    Revelation 3:10
    10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.


    1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
    12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    The Lord returns with the church which make up part of the armies of the Lord in Rev 19.

    Revelation 19:11-16
    11</SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


    The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

    Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

    Zechariah 14:16-21
    16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
    20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

    So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.

    There are two types of people mentioned in revelation 3:10. I would like to discuss these two groups of people but I have to go to work, I'll discuss it when I get back.

    Revelation 3:10
    10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
    John 8:31-32



    31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


    Dizzy

  • #2
    Hello, Dizzy, and thank you for starting a new thread. I hope that this will be productive.

    Originally posted by Dizzy
    1 Corinthians 15:50-54
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    No it is not impossible for flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50-54 is talking about the rapture of the church. Let’s look at Revelation for a minute.


    Agreed.

    Revelation 6:15-17

    15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


    This is where the disagreement begins. The kingds of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, and although the mountains move, it is not the same as the mountains falling, like what will happen when the Day of the Lord actually comes.


    Revelation 7:1-3

    1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

    So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

    Ezekiel 9:1-6
    1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
    3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
    5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

    The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?


    First point. Ezekiel 9 was a set up for chapter 11, as the entire prophecy spanned three chapters, including Ezekiel 10. This was fulfilled a long time ago, and does not pertain to the end times.

    Second point. The whole sign of the blood-moon is about the sealing of the 144,000. The 144,000 being sealed is the total reason why God gives the sign in the first place. The fact that the men of the earth misconstrues the actual sign of the Lord's return, which is total darkness in the heavens and on earth, with no sun or moonlight, lets me know that the sign of the blood-moon is not about the return. For the red light is stilll light, and that is not the sign of the Lord's return. Notice that the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord in the air?


    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


    Revelation 3:10
    10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.


    This is a contradiction to what the Lord has already told the disciples. We are to be tested, and in this world we will have tribulation, which is testing and trying of the saints to see if they are true or not.

    These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

    1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
    12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    The Lord returns with the church which make up part of the armies of the Lord in Rev 19.


    That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.

    Revelation 19:11-16
    11
    </SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


    The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

    Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


    1. It is not proven that the Lord will use the believers as part of His Army when He returns. I personally believe that He will, but there is no scripture that says so, and so, I have to say so. We can not use our own personal beliefs based on assumptions as Biblical fact, because it is not. It is only our beliefs.

    2. All of the wicked are not destroyed at Armageddon. Only those military that Satan, the Beast, and the false prophet summons to Megiddo. The entire world does not consist of the armies that the Lord will destroy. There will be those who are not summoned to Megiddo, and those people, at least those who are not killed during the destruction of the mountains, the sinking of the islands, the pounding by 100lb hailstones, and those who are considered to be sheep based on their treatment of the saints during the Great Tribulation. They are the ones who will be ruled by the Lord, because the Lord will retrieve ALL of the righteous from this earth when He returns, and not before.

    Zechariah 14:16-21
    16
    </SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
    20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

    So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.


    How is that? The righteous who did not take the Mark and did not lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord's Angels at His return.

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

    SO, all of the righteous are gone. And so, the survivors can not be the righteous. Therefore, who's left?

    Comment


    • #3
      Who's left? The heathen.

      According to Daniel 7:12, when the beast is hurled into the consuming flame, the rest of the beast is stripped of their authority, but are spared their lives.

      As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. -Daniel 7:12

      Also, according to Zechariah 14:16, the remnant of the nations that attacked Jerusalem are the ones who will have to go to Jerusalem.

      And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. -Zechariah 14:16

      Moreover, Zechariah 14:18 tells us EXACTLY who the survivors are.

      And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. -Zechariah 14:18

      Scripture is clear. The survivors are the heathen. And it makes sense, since they are also mentioned in Ezekiel 39.

      So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. -Ezekiel 39:7

      Therefore, It is NOT the righteous who survive the Great Tribulation, but the heathen that are spared their lives.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        Hello, Dizzy, and thank you for starting a new thread. I hope that this will be productive.

        [/font][/color]

        Agreed.

        This is where the disagreement begins. The kingds of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, and although the mountains move, it is not the same as the mountains falling, like what will happen when the Day of the Lord actually comes.


        [u][b]

        First point. Ezekiel 9 was a set up for chapter 11, as the entire prophecy spanned three chapters, including Ezekiel 10. This was fulfilled a long time ago, and does not pertain to the end times.

        Second point. The whole sign of the blood-moon is about the sealing of the 144,000. The 144,000 being sealed is the total reason why God gives the sign in the first place. The fact that the men of the earth misconstrues the actual sign of the Lord's return, which is total darkness in the heavens and on earth, with no sun or moonlight, lets me know that the sign of the blood-moon is not about the return. For the red light is stilll light, and that is not the sign of the Lord's return. Notice that the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord in the air?


        [b]

        This is a contradiction to what the Lord has already told the disciples. We are to be tested, and in this world we will have tribulation, which is testing and trying of the saints to see if they are true or not.

        These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

        [/font][/color]

        That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.

        [/font][/color]

        1. It is not proven that the Lord will use the believers as part of His Army when He returns. I personally believe that He will, but there is no scripture that says so, and so, I have to say so. We can not use our own personal beliefs based on assumptions as Biblical fact, because it is not. It is only our beliefs.

        2. All of the wicked are not destroyed at Armageddon. Only those military that Satan, the Beast, and the false prophet summons to Megiddo. The entire world does not consist of the armies that the Lord will destroy. There will be those who are not summoned to Megiddo, and those people, at least those who are not killed during the destruction of the mountains, the sinking of the islands, the pounding by 100lb hailstones, and those who are considered to be sheep based on their treatment of the saints during the Great Tribulation. They are the ones who will be ruled by the Lord, because the Lord will retrieve ALL of the righteous from this earth when He returns, and not before.

        [/font][/color][/color]

        How is that? The righteous who did not take the Mark and did not lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord's Angels at His return.

        [u][b]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

        SO, all of the righteous are gone. And so, the survivors can not be the righteous. Therefore, who's left?

        Hi ThirdHero,
        I gave the above verses from revelation 6:15-17 to show who is able to stand when it comes to the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

        Ezekiel 9 was just an example of those who are sealed are protected by God, nothing else, I know this has nothing to do with the end times.

        I know the kings of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, what is said is they know who it is that is bringing the wrath upon them.

        Revelation 6:15-17
        15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
        I also said that a question is asked. Who is able to stand (survive) the wrath of God? The 144,000 are able to survive for they have been sealed by God in their foreheads.

        I know the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord returning in the air. Why? This is only the beginning of the tribulation period, the people will see the Lord return at the end of thegreat tribulation in Revelation 19.

        John 16:33
        33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

        During our lives we go through many trials and tribulations that test our faith. Some tribulations a Christian goes through may turn them away from their faith and they turn their backs on the Lord. Some the tribulations we go through will bring us closer to the Lord and our faith grows stronger. So the tribulation we go through is a testing of our faith and this testing helps us to grow as Christians.

        James 1:2-4
        2</SPAN> My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
        Now concerning the hour of trial that comes on the whole world the church will not be here as I said. The word of God is clear on this point. As I said earlier there are two groups of people spoken of in Revelation 3:10, let’s have a look.
        Revelation 3:10
        10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trialwhich shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
        The two groups we have are those who are kept from the hour of trial (the church), and those who go through the hour of trial (tribulation) the wicked.
        1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
        12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
        That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.

        This is a true statement but it also tells us that the Lord returns with the church saints and the tribulation saints. Have a look at the end of verse 13 it says at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Now we have established that let’s look mat Revelation 19
        Revelation 19:11-16

        11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

        KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

        I have bolded verses 13,14 it tells us of the sacrificial lamb who is the Word of God. It tells us those who have been cleaned in His blood and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. These are the armies of the Lord, the church, the tribulation saints and the Holy angels. These three groups return with the Lord. This is not an assumption it is a fact.
        Zechariah 14:16
        16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
        Which part of all the nations do you not understand all the nations go up against Jerusalem the wicked are destroyed.
        Zechariah 14:1-3
        1</SPAN> Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
        And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
        2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
        The city shall be taken,
        The houses rifled,
        And the women ravished.
        Half of the city shall go into captivity,
        But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
        3 Then the LORD will go forth
        And fight against those nations,
        As He fights in the day of battle.

        4</SPAN> And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
        Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
        And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
        From east to west,
        Makinga very large valley;
        Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
        And half of it toward the south.
        5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
        For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
        Yes, you shall flee
        As you fled from the earthquake
        In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

        Thus the LORD my God will come, (just thought I would highlight the saints coming with the Lord)
        And all the saints with You.

        6 It shall come to pass in that day
        That there will be no light;
        The lights will diminish.

        You have no scripture to support your theory that the wicked that are left over from the tribulation period go into the millennial kingdom.
        Revelation 16:12-16
        12</SPAN> Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
        15
        “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
        16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
        Revelation 16 tells us that the kings of the whole earth go out to battle at Armageddon, which means the peoples of every nation go up in battle against Jerusalem. So all the wicked of the earth go up against Jerusalem and are destroyed by the Word that proceeds out of the Lord’s mouth. That only leaves the believing Jews and those believers from all the nations left, they are not destroyed in the battle.
        Yes those who did not take the mark of the beast or lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord’s angels and gathered to the Lord. They are gathered to the Lord in their mortal bodies and they go into the millennial kingdom. So the Jews who survived will lead the nations to their God
        Zechariah 8:23
        “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”




        John 8:31-32



        31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


        Dizzy

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DIZZY View Post

          Revelation 7:1-3
          1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

          The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?
          Dizzy, to understand this better I dare you to research what the New Testament says about the seal of God. This is the holy spirit. If the church was there , then the church would already be sealed and would not need to be re-sealed, they would be awaiting the resurrection. The 144 000 somehow had escaped the mark of the beast through God's special protection over Israel in the last 3.5 years (read Rev 12). They come to Christ right at the end, the last will be first and the first will be last. Read the parable of the labourers too, and Joel, this is the final revival as Jesus comes.

          Originally posted by DIZZY View Post

          1 Thessalonians 1:10
          and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

          1 Thessalonians 5:9
          For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



          Revelation 3:10
          10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
          The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.
          There is the wrath of God moments before He comes, and the wrath when He comes. If the believers are resurrected even a moment before this final destruction these verses would be very well fulfilled. So these verses are no proof that the church won't be around during the tribulation, they are just proof that the most intense wrath will be avoided.

          Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
          Revelation 19:11-16
          11</SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

          KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

          The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

          Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles
          Dizzy, I agree with you here about who reigns.

          But I don't see any evidence of your conclusion about who is reigned over from the verse you quoted here. Rev 19 does not define who these nations are , except to say that the nations that are struck will be ruled with a rod of iron. These nations seem to need discipline from the start.

          Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
          Zechariah 14:16-21
          16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
          20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

          So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.
          They are survivors of the nations that need regular discipline, but I still don't get your proof that they are necessarily believers, they seem like unbelievers to me.

          Comment


          • #6
            dizzy , if you read Rev 20 we would end up with a ridiculous situation that those tribulation saints that manage to be martyred during the tribulation will have eternal life and resurrection bodies, but those that manage to survive the tribulation will be doomed to mortality. The left behind movies should show tribulation saints desperately trying to get martyred quickly in case they miss the resurrection of Rev 20:4 and are doomed to mortality.

            20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
            20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
            20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
              Hi ThirdHero,
              I gave the above verses from revelation 6:15-17 to show who is able to stand when it comes to the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

              Ezekiel 9 was just an example of those who are sealed are protected by God, nothing else, I know this has nothing to do with the end times.

              I know the kings of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, what is said is they know who it is that is bringing the wrath upon them.

              Revelation 6:15-17
              15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
              I also said that a question is asked. Who is able to stand (survive) the wrath of God? The 144,000 are able to survive for they have been sealed by God in their foreheads.

              I know the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord returning in the air. Why? This is only the beginning of the tribulation period, the people will see the Lord return at the end of thegreat tribulation in Revelation 19.
              How is chapter 6 the beginning of the Great Tribulation when according to Lord Jesus, that does not happen until Jerusalem is attacked by Satan and the armies of the Beast? This does not happen until chapter 12, which is when the seventh trumpet is blown.

              Now I do not understand what you believe is the correlation between the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven vials, but I am here to tell you that the model that mashes them altogether is completely wrong. As written in Revelation 8:1, the seven angels aren't even given their trumpets until AFTER the seventh seal is broken, which happens AFTER the sixth seal, which is when the 144,000 are sealed. Therefore, the seventh trumpet, which is the point when the Lord will have the Great Tribulation begin, as outlined in chapter 12, can not happen at chapter 6, since the angels can not even blow, let alone take posession of the trumpets until after the 144,000 are sealed.

              Also, since we know that the Great Tribulation can not happen at chapter 6, we have to see what exactly is going on when that sign happens. Other than the mountains shaking and th islands shaking, the only other significant thing that happens is that the 144,000 are sealed. No Great Tribulation, no rapture, no return, just trhe sealing of the 144,000 male virgins and the announcement of those who come out of the Great Tribulation. This is what Revelation 6-7 actually says. The rest is assumptions, and can not be used to create interpretation, especially in Revelation.

              During our lives we go through many trials and tribulations that test our faith. Some tribulations a Christian goes through may turn them away from their faith and they turn their backs on the Lord. Some the tribulations we go through will bring us closer to the Lord and our faith grows stronger. So the tribulation we go through is a testing of our faith and this testing helps us to grow as Christians.
              My point is this. The original disciples had to face death, and all of them embraced it, with only one out of the original 12 dying of natural causes. The rest were martyred. Their tribulation tested not only their faith, but their resolve. Even Lord Jesus himself was tested unto death, and we all know how that turned out. Jesus taught the disciples that the students are not above their master, and as pupils of Lord Jesus, we are not above our master. If He had to face death and embrace it, then we ought to expect the same.

              Now concerning the hour of trial that comes on the whole world the church will not be here as I said. The word of God is clear on this point. As I said earlier there are two groups of people spoken of in Revelation 3:10, let’s have a look.
              Revelation 3:10
              10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trialwhich shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
              The two groups we have are those who are kept from the hour of trial (the church), and those who go through the hour of trial (tribulation) the wicked.
              ONe little problem with this verse. It applied to the church at Philadelphia. If you read the previous verses, you will quickly realize that the church at Philadelphia was suffering tribulation that is likened to the Great Tribulation, and since they have kept their resolve, even as they faced death, Jesus promised them that they will not be around, when God wil try the world. Where is the church at Philadelphia today? In heaven. Therefore, prophecy fulfilled, and it still has nothing to do with the rest of the church going through Great Tribulation.

              1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
              12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

              This is a true statement but it also tells us that the Lord returns with the church saints and the tribulation saints. Have a look at the end of verse 13 it says at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Now we have established that let’s look mat Revelation 19
              It only says, "all of His saints". It does not specify. For the specification as to whom encompasses the "all of His saints", we have to look at the next chapter, preferably, verses 13-18 of chapter 4. There we have the saints that come with Him being those who were "sleeping". Then, at His return, we who remain until He comes will be transformed, and are raised to the air to meet with Him. This happens at one event, and is not a separate, secret event. There is only one point when the people of God are raptured, which according to 4:15, does NOT happen until the dead in Christ rise from their graves, which happens solely at the point when He returns to this earth.

              My point? There is no "church" saints that are raptured before His return.

              I have bolded verses 13,14 it tells us of the sacrificial lamb who is the Word of God. It tells us those who have been cleaned in His blood and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. These are the armies of the Lord, the church, the tribulation saints and the Holy angels. These three groups return with the Lord. This is not an assumption it is a fact.


              Ths blued portions show the points of your assumptions, based on the Left Behind series. They are not facts, and should not be used as Bible fact when they are not. Like I have said, even though I believe that the Tribulation saints will be in the number of the Lord's armies that will slaughter the Beast's armies, I will not be so bold as to say, "yes, this is a fact", when I do not have the evidence to back it up. All Revelation 19:11-16 prove is that the saints are with Him, riding white horses. that is a fact.

              Zechariah 14:16
              16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
              Which part of all the nations do you not understand all the nations go up against Jerusalem the wicked are destroyed.
              Zechariah 14:1-3
              1</SPAN> Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
              And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
              2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
              The city shall be taken,
              The houses rifled,
              And the women ravished.
              Half of the city shall go into captivity,
              But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
              3 Then the LORD will go forth
              And fight against those nations,
              As He fights in the day of battle.
              4</SPAN> And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
              Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
              And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
              From east to west,
              Makinga very large valley;
              Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
              And half of it toward the south.
              5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
              For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
              Yes, you shall flee
              As you fled from the earthquake
              In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

              Thus the LORD my God will come, (just thought I would highlight the saints coming with the Lord)
              And all the saints with You.
              6 It shall come to pass in that day
              That there will be no light;
              The lights will diminish.
              You have no scripture to support your theory that the wicked that are left over from the tribulation period go into the millennial kingdom.
              Revelation 16:12-16
              12</SPAN> Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
              15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
              16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
              Revelation 16 tells us that the kings of the whole earth go out to battle at Armageddon, which means the peoples of every nation go up in battle against Jerusalem. So all the wicked of the earth go up against Jerusalem and are destroyed by the Word that proceeds out of the Lord’s mouth. That only leaves the believing Jews and those believers from all the nations left, they are not destroyed in the battle.
              Yes those who did not take the mark of the beast or lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord’s angels and gathered to the Lord. They are gathered to the Lord in their mortal bodies and they go into the millennial kingdom. So the Jews who survived will lead the nations to their God


              Did you stop reading Zechariah at 14:16? Well, check out verse 18.

              And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

              Notice who is required to go to Jerusalem when the Lord establishes His Kingdom in Jerusalem? The heathen. What is the definition of that term?

              heathen - /ˈhiðən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hee-thuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective
              –noun 1.an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan. 2.an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.-Dictionary.com (actually www.dictionary,reference.com/browse/heathen)

              A believer can not be one od the survivors who are ruled by Lord Jesus, because by definition, a believer can not be a heathen.







              Therefore, the "surviving" saints that underwent the Great tribulation can not be the ones that the Lord rules over, as Zechariah 14:18 clearly states. On top of that, chapter 7 tells us that every saint that come out of the Great Tribulation are glorified, and unlike chapter 20:4, the description of the tribulation saints in chapter 7 are not distinguished by means of whether they died or not. The only reference we have to who they are is the fact that all of them came out of the Great Tribulation, which leads me to conclude that those who survive the Great Tribulation, just like what 1 thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 tells us, are transformed into incorruptible bodies, and join those who were sleeping.

              They do not go on as being mortals. They become immortal. Therefore, the surviving Believers are NOT the ones who go into the Millennium as mortals.
              Last edited by third hero; Dec 3rd 2008, 07:35 PM. Reason: correcting mistakes...again!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                dizzy , if you read Rev 20 we would end up with a ridiculous situation that those tribulation saints that manage to be martyred during the tribulation will have eternal life and resurrection bodies, but those that manage to survive the tribulation will be doomed to mortality. The left behind movies should show tribulation saints desperately trying to get martyred quickly in case they miss the resurrection of Rev 20:4 and are doomed to mortality.
                They are not doomed to morality for eternity.


                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                  They are not doomed to morality for eternity.
                  QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

                  This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

                    This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.
                    Pretty much yes. I believe that Rev 20:11 is after the Millennium and those of the wicked: also described as "the rest" from Rev 20:5, and all wicked from the beginning, and the wicked and righteous that lived during the Millennium - will be judged at the GWTJ of Rev 20:11. Those in the Book of Life, those washed by the blood of the Lamb, will receive eternal life. And all those who refused Jesus will be the ones who suffer the second death.


                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.
                      Last edited by quiet dove; Dec 4th 2008, 03:01 AM. Reason: some editorial

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RANGER65 View Post
                        It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.

                        Where do you see that in the 4th chapter?
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RANGER65 View Post
                          It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.
                          After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9

                          And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

                          Well, it looks like the church is mentioned here as a group from all nations that come out of Great Tribulation.

                          And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17.

                          Here, we see the church being attacked by Satan, which coincidently is after Satan attacks the Jews.

                          There are other places in Revelation as well that has the church littered in there, including chapters 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, and 22. Just because you do not see the word "church" there does not negate the probability of the church actually being in this book.

                          Besides, do you know what the word church means?

                          www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/church
                          church/tʃɜrtʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [church] Show IPA Pronunciation

                          –noun 1.a building for public Christian worship.2.public worship of God or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3.(sometimes initial capital letter) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.4.(sometimes initial capital letter) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church. 5.that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.6.a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church. 7.ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him. 8.the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination.9.the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church. 10.(initial capital letter) the Christian Church before the Reformation.11.(initial capital letter) the Roman Catholic Church.12.the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church. 13.a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion.14.any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church. –verb (used with object) 15.to conduct or bring to church, esp. for special services.16.South Midland and Southern U.S. to subject to church discipline.17.to perform a church service of thanksgiving for (a woman after childbirth).
                          Now, I have given you 17 different definitions. Which one of them represents the individual believer? Answer? None.

                          The most common definition of the word church is the congregation of believers. And so, the word church is not the only word in the bible that represents the believers. the term "saint" has been used, and I know that that word is heavily used in Revelation, and that word makes the believers very much a part of the overall story in Revelation.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            Pretty much yes. I believe that Rev 20:11 is after the Millennium and those of the wicked: also described as "the rest" from Rev 20:5, and all wicked from the beginning, and the wicked and righteous that lived during the Millennium - will be judged at the GWTJ of Rev 20:11. Those in the Book of Life, those washed by the blood of the Lamb, will receive eternal life. And all those who refused Jesus will be the ones who suffer the second death.

                            I never heard of this before, interesting viewpoint!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

                              This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.
                              The first resurrection consists of all the righteous saints of all ages.

                              1. Church sainst
                              2. Tribulation saints
                              3. Old Testament saints
                              4. Millennial saints

                              The second resurrection which is called the second death consists of the wicked of all ages, which will happen at the end of the Millennium.
                              John 8:31-32



                              31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                              Dizzy

                              Comment

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