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  • The Church and the Rapture

    To show that there is plenty of scriptural support for the rapture of the church coming before the seven year tribulation. The book of revelation in chapter 4, 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns the rapture of the church. Revelation chapter 3 closes out the church age. Then to start chapter 4 it says after this or after the church age. I looked and behold a door open in heaven and the first voice which I heardwas as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. So after the church age, it is John who sees what will happen after the church is caught up. In Rev 4;1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the Door into the Sheepfold..then inverse 9, Jesus says, He is the Door, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepherd. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, Door, (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1. John is caught up through the Door into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type fo the church in Chapter 4. In John 10:3 Jesus says..."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the Church as it is shown in, 1 cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.

    The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16 and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning"these things in the churches". Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.

    The Holy Spirit used the Apostle John to write the Gospel of John, but he would later use John again to write the Book of Revelation. When the Apostle John writes his Gospel he makes a very curious statement. To many people this statement is overlooked and doesn't mean anything, but we know that every jot and tittle means something in God's Word! It's found in the repeated phrase, "The disciple whom Jesus Loved" repeated, to show it's importance, and it's found at least 3 times in the Gospel of John. Why would he use that term and why would the Holy Spirit include that in the text? Unless, John would later write the Book of Revelation and he would Typify the church, being caught up through the Sheepfold Door and Raptured to Heaven in the Spirit! In the heart of God, John is the Beloved! John is also known as, John the Divine, which seems to point to Divine love as much as it points to his inspired writings. Some people will scoff at the idea of the Apostle John being cast as a Type of Raptured Church in Rev 4 but they have to ignore all the signs and drive right around a mountain of evidence that shows that, that is exactly how he is portrayed.

  • #2
    Revelation chapters 4-22 show scenes from both Heaven and Earth.

    If the church is missing from Revelation after chapter 4, then where are they?

    Just because the word 'church' is only used in the first 3 chapters when specifically addressing those 7 congregations doesn't mean the entire church universal goes missing after chapter 3.

    You can find members of the church througout all of the rest of Revelation; just look for the faithful followers of the Lord. There are examples of them in each chapter; both in Heaven and on the Earth.

    To say the church went missing, simply because the word 'church' isn't used isn't a very sound arguement.

    The word 'church' isn't used in 80% of the verses in the New Testament, and isn't found in roughly half of the NT books. Does that mean those verses and books are also telling us the church is missing and they aren't talking about Christians?

    Nope.

    Context of the verses, not a specific grouping word ("church" in this case), determine where they are.

    "Christians", members of Christ's church; are found throughout Revelation....and that's a word that is only found in two verses in the entire New Testament.

    Comment


    • #3
      David Taylor,

      Me thinks you protest too much....LOL

      Bikelite..

      Welcome to Bible Forums. I happen to agree with your post...which was excellent by the way. The Church age is described in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation....and then the Church is caught up to heaven in Chapter 4.

      I liked your mention of the names given to John though. I hadn't thought of that before.

      Lisa
      "God has decreed to act in response to prayer. He commands us to ask......and Satan trembles for fear we will." unknown

      Comment


      • #4
        Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.
        Jesus told his disciples that he would come back for them "like a thief".

        REV 16
        12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east
        13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
        14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
        15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
        16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

        That puts us still on the earth, as he still hasnt come at the 6th bowl.

        Paul teaches us that the living saints will not be caught up until the ressurection, and the ressurection happens after the destruction-the last day.

        1thess 5
        2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
        3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.



        10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.





        39 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
        40 "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
        41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
        42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
        43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
        44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
        45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
        46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

        Comment


        • #5
          Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container and the 16th chapter would be speaking if the 144,000 jewish virgin males and the tribulation saints. You may want to look at that again and differintiate as well as at least the last 3 and1/2 years of the 7 years can not come to pass until the church and the holy ghost are "taken out of the way" 2 Thess. Thanks and God Bless.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RANGER65 View Post
            Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container and the 16th chapter would be speaking if the 144,000 jewish virgin males and the tribulation saints. You may want to look at that again and differintiate as well as at least the last 3 and1/2 years of the 7 years can not come to pass until the church and the holy ghost are "taken out of the way" 2 Thess. Thanks and God Bless.

            hi

            that is if you believe in a 7 year trib. Where in revelation does it speak about a 7 year trib. ?

            bennie

            Comment


            • #7
              Where is the Church? It will be returning with Christ to defeat the armies of the world and then to dwell in the "bride of Christ". I plan on being right up front in the battle. Praise God. If any of you are here during Rev. Chpt 16 then somehow you need to make it to Mt Meggido through the bllood to drink and the fire and the gnawing off your tongues so you can meet with us and return with the Jews that are converted during the tribulation. You do not have to worry about these things unless you are the one's that killed the prophets...all of this takes place at or near Jerusalem not Pittsburgh. Thank the Lord.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RANGER65 View Post
                Where is the Church? It will be returning with Christ to defeat the armies of the world and then to dwell in the "bride of Christ". I plan on being right up front in the battle. Praise God. If any of you are here during Rev. Chpt 16 then somehow you need to make it to Mt Meggido through the bllood to drink and the fire and the gnawing off your tongues so you can meet with us and return with the Jews that are converted during the tribulation. You do not have to worry about these things unless you are the one's that killed the prophets...all of this takes place at or near Jerusalem not Pittsburgh. Thank the Lord.

                Hi

                Jerusalem is a hole. Nothing holy about that city my friend.

                The new Jerysalem that will desend out of heavan(after the 1000 years) from God will be magnivesent.

                bennie

                Comment


                • #9
                  It doesn't but you can catch the final time, times and divided times (Daniel 7:25) starting at Rev. 11:1-19. That would encompass the last half of the 70th week and it will last 3 and 1/2 years. The first half would also equal 3 and 1/2 years which totals 7 years.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                    Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.
                    The Bible does not speak of the Seven Seals as "The Seven Seals of Judgment". No verse actually refers to all of the Seals as judgments from God in the Scripture. That label comes from man, from prophecy teachers, publishers, and editors. Only in the 6th Seal is the wrath of God seen. Also, there is no verse in Scripture that confines all of the Seals to the Tribulation timeframe. Just another thought.

                    God Bless,

                    ServantoftheKing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RANGER65 View Post
                      It doesn't but you can catch the final time, times and divided times (Daniel 7:25) starting at Rev. 11:1-19. That would encompass the last half of the 70th week and it will last 3 and 1/2 years. The first half would also equal 3 and 1/2 years which totals 7 years.
                      hi

                      the 70th week of daniel9 was completed in 33AD. Jesus died in 30AD, in the middle of the 70th week. There can not (and must not) be a arbitrary 2000 years in between.

                      bennie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lisadawn View Post
                        The Church age is described in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation....and then the Church is caught up to heaven in Chapter 4.
                        In Rev 1:19, John is told to write down the things which were (in John's past), the things which are (John's present), and the things that are to come (future).

                        In Rev 4:1, John (not the church) is called up to heaven so that he (John) can be shown what things are to come (future). In Revelation 2-3, John was addressing churches that existed during his time, not future churches. He begins writing about the future in Rev 4:1, but that verse is not describing the rapture.

                        God Bless,

                        ServantoftheKing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container
                          Yes , i believe they belong in the same container, you cant have 1 without the other.

                          For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
                          16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                          17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
                          18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
                          second coming happens first, followed by the ressurection, then in a twinkling of an eye the catching away.(rapture)
                          And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            To show that there is plenty of scriptural support for the rapture of the church coming before the seven year tribulation.
                            Lay it on us.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            The book of revelation in chapter 4, 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns the rapture of the church. Revelation chapter 3 closes out the church age.
                            Hmm, it looks to me like it only closes out seven letters to seven churches….
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            Then to start chapter 4 it says after this or after the church age.
                            You know, I use the TNIV, and I’m having trouble finding “after the Church Age”. What translation can I find that phrase in?
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            I looked and behold a door open in heaven and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. So after the church age, it is John who sees what will happen after the church is caught up.
                            Whenever that might be.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            In Rev 4;1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the Door into the Sheepfold..then inverse 9, Jesus says, He is the Door, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepherd. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, Door, (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1.
                            Interesting yes, but inconclusive, since John is the only one who goes through the door in Revelation 4.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            John is caught up through the Door into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type fo the church in Chapter 4.
                            That is an assumption on your part based on your presupposition of a Pre-Trib Rapture.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            In John 10:3 Jesus says..."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the Church as it is shown in, 1 cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.
                            It is a “beautiful picture” of John being called into a vision which he will base Revelation on. You’re assuming a Pre-Trib Rapture to be a foregone conclusion and projecting that into this passage.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16
                            “Saints”.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning"these things in the churches". Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.
                            “Saints”.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            The Holy Spirit used the Apostle John to write the Gospel of John, but he would later use John again to write the Book of Revelation. When the Apostle John writes his Gospel he makes a very curious statement. To many people this statement is overlooked and doesn't mean anything, but we know that every jot and tittle means something in God's Word! It's found in the repeated phrase, "The disciple whom Jesus Loved" repeated, to show it's importance, and it's found at least 3 times in the Gospel of John. Why would he use that term
                            Because he was trying to be more objective than to say “me” and “I”.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            and why would the Holy Spirit include that in the text? Unless, John would later write the Book of Revelation and he would Typify the church, being caught up through the Sheepfold Door and Raptured to Heaven in the Spirit!
                            I’m not sure even taffy could stretch that far.
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            In the heart of God, John is the Beloved! John is also known as, John the Divine
                            In what Bible verse?
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            which seems to point to Divine love as much as it points to his inspired writings.
                            You mean like the entire Bible?
                            Originally posted by bikelite View Post
                            Some people will scoff at the idea of the Apostle John being cast as a Type of Raptured Church in Rev 4 but they have to ignore all the signs and drive right around a mountain of evidence that shows that, that is exactly how he is portrayed.
                            Uh, I’m sorry, but your “evidence” hardly constitutes a mountain. It does, however, constitute a mountainous presupposition on your part.
                            ----------------------------------------------
                            When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Chapter 4 is not saying that - after the church age comes these next events.

                              What we are to do is let the word "after" signal that a new story is beginning. At chapter 4, we find that John hears the same as a trumpet voice that he heard for chapter 1 - and he is in the spirit.

                              Time passes between when John was given chapters 1-3 and the start of chapter 4. Look too at Rev. 7:9, 15:5, 18, 19...after type of chapters.


                              I find so many saying that John was caught up to heaven as in the start of chapter 4 was the rapture timing.

                              But - there isn't a marriage till chapter 19, John even tries to worship one of the seven angels.

                              In chapters 1-3 John ends his first time of hearing that as a trumpet voice. Chapter 4(

                              V1"...and the first voice which I heard..."

                              as in - we are to recall the first voice earlier that John wrote about for chapter 1

                              Jesus waits in heaven till time to make His enemies His footstool. It is impossible for Him to return till the time of the 7th trumpet. Rev. 11:18 is the place where Jesus can first begin to destroy those that are destroying the earth.
                              http://prophecyinsights.com

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