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A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

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  • #31
    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Just put up two post today, 9/24/19 and neglected to reference my source.

    That material was taken from the book, "Jesus Final Victory" a commentary on Dan. & Rev. It can be purchased at Amazon Books. There is no equal in my reading thus far.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

      Originally posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
      DurbanDude said, "I dont agree with you ..."

      My reply, Then you have not agreed with the scripture, not with me.

      Do a study on "stand up", "arise", "lift up", in connection with God standing, as already given you, Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25. It is the finality of mercy's probation, and the stepping in of judgment.

      Psa_3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
      Psa_7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
      Psa_9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
      Psa_10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
      Psa_12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
      Psa_17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
      Psa_44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
      Psa_44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.
      Psa_68:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
      Psa_74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
      Psa_82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
      Psa_102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
      Psa_132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.

      Psa_94:2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

      Amo_9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

      Act_7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
      Act_7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

      Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

      Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
      Sure the phrase "let God arise" denotes God's intervention.

      But that wording gives a completely different impression than Acts 7:56 " I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

      To conclude that the stoning of Stephen is the end of the great 490 year period just because Jesus was seen standing, not sitting is a flimsy basis.


      Have you any evidence that this actually occurred in the autumn of 34 AD?

      The ending /conclusion to the 490 year period is future because there is no evidence of an historical event in 34 AD which is a fitting conclusion to the Jewish 490 year timeline.
      Last edited by DurbanDude; Sep 27 2019, 06:21 AM.

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      • #33
        Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

        Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
        Antiochus IV desecrated the temple in Jerusalem in 167 BC, by setting up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings, as told in I Maccabees 1:54-55: “Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt-offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets.” New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

        This abomination triggered the Maccabean Revolt by Judas Maccabeus and the Hasmoneans. They were eventually victorious and cleansed the temple. “Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year, they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt-offering that they had built.” (I Mac. 4:52-53, NRSVA).

        The 148th year subtract the 145th year makes something around 3 years.

        This victory and cleansing of the temple is still commemorated by Jews today by the annual Festival of Hanukkah.

        The “evenings and mornings” mentioned in Daniel are an obvious reference to the twice daily sacrifices in the temple. So the 2,300 daily sacrifices actually represented 1,150 days—not 2,300 days—and certainly not the 2,300 years.

        The number of days between Chislev 15, 145 and Chislev 25, 148 is about three days off the 1,150 days (if memory serves), but in those early times a day was inserted in the calendar at irregular intervals at the command of the High Priest to correct the calendar drift, so it is at least possible that the three days were inserted in those three plus years to make exactly 1,150 days.
        A correction to the above. The three years and ten days that the sacrifices halted is exactly 60 days short of 1,150. As with the Jewish calendar in those days, an extra month is inserted to correct calendar drift. In the three years it is possible to account for two months or 60 days being inserted at irregular times to bring the count to exactly 1,150 days.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

          Originally posted by svetasv View Post
          I answer those questions in the paper linked. http://www.svetasv.com/aa/1002_Daniel_70_weeks.html
          Please see section titled "5.4.2 The meaning of the word "covenant" ". if you dont have time to read the entire paper.

          Here is an excerpt:
          We contend that the "covenant" is an agreement between God and Titus, probably through a number of intermediaries, to completely eliminate the Judahite people and destroy the city of Jerusalem within 7 years. During those 7 years, all divine protection for the Israelites would be suspended. Protection would be reinstated at the end of that time for the sake of "elect" - those who believed in Jesus and fled as he warned them in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:22).
          Thanks for your time you have put into this but for me I would agree with divaD. For me this sounds like your putting your own private interpretation on the scriptures where God's Word says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. The scripture says that the book of DANIEL is sealed up "UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END". I believe it says this as historical events needed to take place so that the timeslines could be identified that had not taken place in Daniels time so an understanding of the prophecies could not be understood in Daniels time. If you follow DANIEL 9:25-27 from the timelines given everything perfectly aligns according to the scriptures...

          DANIAL 9:25-27 [24], SEVENTY WEEKS ARE DETERMINED ON YOUR PEOPLE and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and TO MAKE AN END OF SINS AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [25], KNOW THEREFORE AND UNDERSTAND THAT FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT TO RESORE AND BUILD JERUSALEM TO THE MESSIAH SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS AND THREE SCORE WEEKS AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26], AND THREE SCORE AND TWO WEEKS SHALL THE MESSIAH BE CUT OFF BUT NOT OF HIMSELF; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. [27], And HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK; AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK HE SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE OF OBLATION TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

          For this prophecy to be understood correctly all points (not one or two) outlined in the scriptures need to be perfectly fulfilled (no private interpretation identified and fulfilled as historical events) to be correctly understood. Now if no prophecy is of any private interpretation can we use the scriptures alone that match historical events that show fulfillment of the prophecies we are trying to understand? The answer to this question I believe is YES! But I believe it is not as you have outlined here as your trying to put your own interpretation on the scriptures which breaks the first rule of prophetic interpretation *2 PETER 1:20-21

          God bless

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

            Originally posted by 3rdAngel View Post
            Thanks for your time you have put into this but for me I would agree with divaD. For me this sounds like your putting your own private interpretation on the scriptures where God's Word says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. The scripture says that the book of DANIEL is sealed up "UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END". I believe it says this as historical events needed to take place so that the timeslines could be identified that had not taken place in Daniels time so an understanding of the prophecies could not be understood in Daniels time. If you follow DANIEL 9:25-27 from the timelines given everything perfectly aligns according to the scriptures...

            DANIAL 9:25-27 [24], SEVENTY WEEKS ARE DETERMINED ON YOUR PEOPLE and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and TO MAKE AN END OF SINS AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [25], KNOW THEREFORE AND UNDERSTAND THAT FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT TO RESORE AND BUILD JERUSALEM TO THE MESSIAH SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS AND THREE SCORE WEEKS AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26], AND THREE SCORE AND TWO WEEKS SHALL THE MESSIAH BE CUT OFF BUT NOT OF HIMSELF; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. [27], And HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK; AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK HE SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE OF OBLATION TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

            For this prophecy to be understood correctly all points (not one or two) outlined in the scriptures need to be perfectly fulfilled (no private interpretation identified and fulfilled as historical events) to be correctly understood. Now if no prophecy is of any private interpretation can we use the scriptures alone that match historical events that show fulfillment of the prophecies we are trying to understand? The answer to this question I believe is YES! But I believe it is not as you have outlined here as your trying to put your own interpretation on the scriptures which breaks the first rule of prophetic interpretation *2 PETER 1:20-21

            God bless
            To understand prophecy we must first ask, "When was this written?" "Who wrote it?" and "to whom was it written?"

            This and only this places the prophecy in context. The next question then must be, "Has this been fulfilled since it was written?"

            The answers will often be they have, but you have to know an awful lot about history.

            When ever events of the past agree with earlier prophetic scripture they must be acknowledged as, at the very least, a possible fulfillment of prophecy. There have been several events that match so perfectly, in fact too perfectly to be mere coincidence, that the only reasonable conclusion is that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

              Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
              The 490 years are continuous. If it were not the Bible lied to you. It says 490 years and it means 490 years. 490 years had been decreed for your people, (the Jews), and your holy city, (Jerusalem).
              To finish transgression and sins (Romans 6:22)

              To make atonement for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)

              To seal up vision and prophecy (Romans 16:25-26 NASB)

              and to anoint the most holy. (Luke 17:20-21 NASB)
              It is simply wrong to say that the years MUST be continuous or else the Bible lies.
              No, if the years are not continuous it does NOT mean the Bible lied as the Bible does NOT state they are continuous.
              It is very simple to understand IF you actually take what is stated AS it is stated.
              This is confirmed by scripture.
              There are 7 weeks of years (49 years), 62 weeks of years (434 years) and 1 week of years (7 years).
              These are STATED as being single BLOCKS and therefore MUST be continuous. The TOTAL of the blocks must also equal 70 weeks of years (490 years), but this is NOT stated by the angel as being continuous and therefore we have NO requirement for them to be continuous.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                Let's try to make this as easy as we can. Since I have begun the count with the only certain date, the date the sanctuary was destroyed, and worked backward, the uncertain dates become assumed, but still match the prophecy.

                416 BC (assumed) Nehemiah’s "word" in his second term, between 431 to 401 BC, to restore the religious faith and temple practices.
                367 BC (assumed) The end of the seven weeks. No reason for this division is given.
                66 The end of the thirty-two weeks. "Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself." Josephus reports an army in the clouds over Jerusalem. The Jewish Revolt begins.
                67 the last seven begins with the meeting of Roman allies to squelch the Jewish Revolt
                70 The sanctuary is destroyed and the offerings and sacrifices are ended forever. The abomination that causes desolation.
                74 the final Jewish resistance ends at Masada. The last seven is complete.

                This is not to be confused with the earlier Antiochus IV desecration of the temple in 167 BC in which the sanctuary was cleansed.
                Actually what you have done is made up things NOT stated in scripture, nor noted in any tradition or history.
                When you start with CONTEXT - the reason for Daniel's prayer and understand the Law which was operating THEN you can start to get to grips with the prophecy.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                  Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                  Actually what you have done is made up things NOT stated in scripture, nor noted in any tradition or history.
                  When you start with CONTEXT - the reason for Daniel's prayer and understand the Law which was operating THEN you can start to get to grips with the prophecy.
                  No, I've reviewed this and it is accurate. The CONTEXT of this part of Daniel is to prophesy to his people of the time they have left in their city. Which was true and accurate, thereby proving God's word is true and God is true.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                    It is simply wrong to say that the years MUST be continuous or else the Bible lies.
                    No, if the years are not continuous it does NOT mean the Bible lied as the Bible does NOT state they are continuous.
                    It is very simple to understand IF you actually take what is stated AS it is stated.
                    This is confirmed by scripture.
                    There are 7 weeks of years (49 years), 62 weeks of years (434 years) and 1 week of years (7 years).
                    These are STATED as being single BLOCKS and therefore MUST be continuous. The TOTAL of the blocks must also equal 70 weeks of years (490 years), but this is NOT stated by the angel as being continuous and therefore we have NO requirement for them to be continuous.
                    So 490 years is not 490 years? Now who is making things up?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                      Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                      So 490 years is not 490 years? Now who is making things up?
                      Where did I say 490 years is NOT 490 years?
                      IF you take 49 years and add to it 434 years and then add to that 7 years you come to 490 years.
                      The fallacy is in claiming that they MUST be continuous, that is that it MUST be treated as a SINGLE block of 490 years, when the angel who gave the explanation SPECIFICALLY broke the years into 3 blocks.
                      If I ask how long will it take you to fix the door, you might answer "5 minutes". However if I ask how long for you to fix the door you may say "5 weeks". BOTH can be true at the same time. The one is speaking of the duration of the actual fixing of the door - it takes 5 minutes to put it right - yet the other speaks of it taking you 5 weeks before you come round to spend 5 minutes fixing it.

                      So I have NOT made anything up, nor have I added or removed anything from scripture!
                      What I have done is take what is ACTUALLY stated in the Hebrew and noted other scriptures which AFFIRM my understanding.
                      I do not rely on the KJV or any particular translation.

                      If you pay attention to what the angel says, we have:
                      Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

                      It is NOT about any decree of Man, but about the WORD of God going forth. When we search for Man's decree we find that NOT ONE decree fits time wise.
                      Yet when we look for the WORD of God THEN we find answers which fit.

                      Ezra confirms this:
                      Ezra 1:1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia

                      It is about the fulfillment of God's Word and NOT the fulfillment of Man's.

                      We are directed to Jeremiah very clearly in Daniel 9:2
                      I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet

                      Now Dan 9:2 uses the SAME word as found in Dan 9:25, which is found in Strong's 1697 - dabar, which is the SAME word found in Ezra 1:1.

                      Anyone can check these things and see I am not making anything up. Those who do NOT understand the connection between 70 years and 490 years, doesn't have a good grasp of the OT, in particular the Law and the consequences of disobedience. Jesus highlighted this too when He spoke of forgiving your brother 70 x 7 times.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                        Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                        No, I've reviewed this and it is accurate. The CONTEXT of this part of Daniel is to prophesy to his people of the time they have left in their city. Which was true and accurate, thereby proving God's word is true and God is true.
                        The CONTEXT was that the 70 years were soon up, but that was a prophecy given to Jeremiah. Daniel is NOT given a repeat of Jeremiah's prophecy but a NEW prophecy of how God was going to deal with His people in response to Daniel's prayer - also noted in Dan 9.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                          Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                          The CONTEXT was that the 70 years were soon up, but that was a prophecy given to Jeremiah. Daniel is NOT given a repeat of Jeremiah's prophecy but a NEW prophecy of how God was going to deal with His people in response to Daniel's prayer - also noted in Dan 9.
                          You lost me....

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                            Originally posted by svetasv View Post

                            The sections of time in chronological sequence are:
                            • The 1 week or 7 years (circa 67AD-74AD} roughly corresponds to the First Jewish–Roman War (circa 66AD–74AD); it has a midpoint at the destruction of temple in Jerusalem in the summer of 70AD.

                            Regarding the period of 1 week or 7 years, based on other scriptures in the bible, I cannot see how this period of time can be fulfilled in 70AD.

                            Below are references that indicate this is a time period at a minimal of 3-1/2 years prior to the end of time.

                            Point #1
                            By 70AD, the gospel of the kingdom had not been preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.
                            Matthew 24:14
                            And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


                            Point #2
                            Based on other passages by Jesus, as well as other apostles, Jesus was referring to a period of time near the end of time.
                            Matthew 24:15
                            When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


                            Point #3
                            Clearly Jesus was referring to the time of his 2nd coming and not 70AD. He also places the signs of his coming immediately after the tribulation of those days.
                            Matthew 24:
                            27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                            28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
                            29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                            30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                            31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


                            Point #4
                            Then Jesus concludes by say that this is (1) generation in which all will be fulfilled. And goes on to say that no man knows the day and the hour. Only God knows. Therefore, the time could not have been 70AD.
                            Matthew 24:
                            34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
                            36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


                            Point #5
                            Apostle Paul refers to the same event regarding the man of sin (son of perdition). And later states that the Lord will consume with the brightness of his coming.
                            2 Thessalonians 2:
                            3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                            8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                              There is a lot of material here, I'll do my best to keep it brief.
                              Point #1
                              What are "all the nations" and what is "all the world"? Acts 2:5 lists "every country in the world" as those in the eastern Mediterranean and middle east. Romans 1:8, "that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world." And Romans 10:18, "the habital world," and also Colossians 1:6. We may be contaminating ancient people with our modern definitions.
                              Point #2
                              What is the "end time"? It is also referred to as the "end of the age." There was a coming wrath of God, but the world is without end. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, John 18:36. And of Daniel's abominination? Well, Daniel does not say anything about a statue.
                              Point #3
                              Yes, Jesus was referring to his second coming. 27) He will come fast, 28) Vultures gathering is a sign of a carcass, so those signs point to the end of the age. 29) There will be eclipses 30) Jesus will physically be seen in the clouds, and he was. 31) Jesus in the cloud will call up his chosen, and I presume he did.
                              Point #4
                              Jesus said this in 30 AD, when it hadn't happened yet and no man knew when it would. When I say, "This generation does not read enough" do I mean a future generation does not read?
                              Point #5
                              There have been periods of falling away, and men of sin. Did the Lord consume with the spirit of his mouth and destroy? I suppose so.

                              The propensity to combine prophecy that does not necessarily relate to each other. It can produce a flurry of theory.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

                                Originally posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
                                You lost me....
                                Well if you don;t read the WHOLE chapter of Daniel 9 then you will be lost.

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