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  • Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

    "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

    If one examines the kingdom of Satan we see that he goes to counterfeit God's kingdom as it will be a great deception. (City, King, Mark, 7 heads/angels, 12 tribes/12 horns and on and on).

    "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

    "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

    And one of these counterfeits is Satan having his own 144,000. What would a person claiming to be Christ be without them?

    The 12 horns

    I know most see the 10 horns of the beast however the second beast has the other two making a total of 12. In addition the 12 is divided to mimic the 10 northern tribes of Israel (first beast) and the southern division of the house of Judah (second beast) wherein the counterfeit lamb would originate. So what this is showing us is the the second beast is actually the false prophet king and the first beast is not an individual at all. Are there two kings of the kingdom? No.

    The 12 horns represent a false 144,000 which will align with the beast and be part of the deception of the world. The real 144,000 will not accept the mark of the beast and be killed.

  • #2
    Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

    If one examines the kingdom of Satan we see that he goes to counterfeit God's kingdom as it will be a great deception. (City, King, Mark, 7 heads/angels, 12 tribes/12 horns and on and on).

    "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

    "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

    And one of these counterfeits is Satan having his own 144,000. What would a person claiming to be Christ be without them?

    The 12 horns

    I know most see the 10 horns of the beast however the second beast has the other two making a total of 12. In addition the 12 is divided to mimic the 10 northern tribes of Israel (first beast) and the southern division of the house of Judah (second beast) wherein the counterfeit lamb would originate. So what this is showing us is the the second beast is actually the false prophet king and the first beast is not an individual at all. Are there two kings of the kingdom? No.

    The 12 horns represent a false 144,000 which will align with the beast and be part of the deception of the world. The real 144,000 will not accept the mark of the beast and be killed.
    Which 144,000 do you speak of? Those of Chapter 7 or Chapter 14.

    I assume that it is Chapter 7. If so, what think ye of the phrase in verse 3, "the servants of our God"? Can the language be plainer?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      Which 144,000 do you speak of? Those of Chapter 7 or Chapter 14.

      I assume that it is Chapter 7. If so, what think ye of the phrase in verse 3, "the servants of our God"? Can the language be plainer?
      Walls, what makes you think the 144.000 of chapter 7 are different from those of chapter 14?

      Aristarkos

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        Which 144,000 do you speak of? Those of Chapter 7 or Chapter 14.

        I assume that it is Chapter 7. If so, what think ye of the phrase in verse 3, "the servants of our God"? Can the language be plainer?
        Your missing the point. There are two sets of 144,000. There is a counterfeit 144,000 which aligns with Satan. Reason being is that to complete the deception Satan needs to appear to have Israel on his side.

        Those in Rev 7 and 14 are the true 144,000 which align with God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

          Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
          Walls, what makes you think the 144.000 of chapter 7 are different from those of chapter 14?

          Aristarkos
          Those of Chapter 7 are;
          • On earth where the sea is
          • Sealed
          • Sealed in their foreheads
          • Of Twelve Tribes which (1) take up so much of the Bible and (2) which the plain language says that they are of ISRAEL

          What we have here is the Remnant of Israel promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Romans 11. They receive a seal so that the angels pouring out God's wrath and making the earth inhabitable during the great Tribulation do not harm them. They are found going through the 1260 days in Revelation Chapter 12 - those "who keep the commandments of God (not Christ). Notice in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 the condition for Israel's recovery and restoration is that a Remnant turn back to what Moses was expounding on "that day" - the Law.

          Those of Chapter 14 are;
          • Those which have the Father's NAME in their foreheads - not a seal. This is a fulfillment of Revelation 3:12 - made to the CHURCH
          • Before the throne. This must be heaven for the same audience of the 4 beats and 24 elders which are in heaven in Chapter 4. Only the CHURCH aspires to a rapture to the sky
          • Raptured, and the destination of sky is confirmed in the next verse for they are "redeemed FROM the earth"
          • They which are "NOT defiled with women" and "virgins". Only Christians are called "Virgins" (2nd Cor.11:2)
          • They which "follow the Lamb where He goes". They must be of the Church for neither Israel nor the nations follow the Lamb. They hate Him.
          • They are "redeemed from among men". Since the scene is in heaven and Christ is on the throne before the 4 beats and 24 elders, He has not yet descended and redeemed Israel. These in Chapter 14 can only be BELIEVERS
          • "Firstfruits". The only men who are called "firstfruits" in the Bible are Christ and Christians (1st Cor.15:20; Jas 1:18)
          • Those in whose "mouth is no guile". Even the Remnant of Israel still refuse Christ so guile is in their confession. These could only be very pious Christians
          • Those "without fault before the throne of God". According to Jude 1:24 only Christians can be presented "faultless before the PRESENCE of His glory"

          Here we have that portion of Christians who have lead exemplary lives - the Overcomers that God called out of the CHURCH in the first three Chapters of Revelation, and to whome were promised to miss the Great Tribulation and "stand before the Son of Man" (Lk.21:36; Rev.3:10). The DIFFERENCE between the two 144,000s is enormous.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            Your missing the point. There are two sets of 144,000. There is a counterfeit 144,000 which aligns with Satan. Reason being is that to complete the deception Satan needs to appear to have Israel on his side.

            Those in Rev 7 and 14 are the true 144,000 which align with God.
            OK, I understand. Sorry I missed the point. Why I asked is not that I don't, like you, think that Satan counterfeits everything of God, but that the number 144,000 is a special number. 12 is the number of God's people and 144,000 is 12 X 12 X 1,000, a number not only found in Chapters 7 (Remnant of Jews) and 14 (Overcomers of the Church), but in New Jerusalem in 21:16-17. To my knowledge (or lack of it) Satan cannot counterfeit this.

            However, I see your thesis.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              Those of Chapter 7 are;
              • On earth where the sea is
              • Sealed
              • Sealed in their foreheads
              • Of Twelve Tribes which (1) take up so much of the Bible and (2) which the plain language says that they are of ISRAEL

              What we have here is the Remnant of Israel promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Romans 11. They receive a seal so that the angels pouring out God's wrath and making the earth inhabitable during the great Tribulation do not harm them. They are found going through the 1260 days in Revelation Chapter 12 - those "who keep the commandments of God (not Christ). Notice in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 the condition for Israel's recovery and restoration is that a Remnant turn back to what Moses was expounding on "that day" - the Law.

              Those of Chapter 14 are;
              • Those which have the Father's NAME in their foreheads - not a seal. This is a fulfillment of Revelation 3:12 - made to the CHURCH
              • Before the throne. This must be heaven for the same audience of the 4 beats and 24 elders which are in heaven in Chapter 4. Only the CHURCH aspires to a rapture to the sky
              • Raptured, and the destination of sky is confirmed in the next verse for they are "redeemed FROM the earth"
              • They which are "NOT defiled with women" and "virgins". Only Christians are called "Virgins" (2nd Cor.11:2)
              • They which "follow the Lamb where He goes". They must be of the Church for neither Israel nor the nations follow the Lamb. They hate Him.
              • They are "redeemed from among men". Since the scene is in heaven and Christ is on the throne before the 4 beats and 24 elders, He has not yet descended and redeemed Israel. These in Chapter 14 can only be BELIEVERS
              • "Firstfruits". The only men who are called "firstfruits" in the Bible are Christ and Christians (1st Cor.15:20; Jas 1:18)
              • Those in whose "mouth is no guile". Even the Remnant of Israel still refuse Christ so guile is in their confession. These could only be very pious Christians
              • Those "without fault before the throne of God". According to Jude 1:24 only Christians can be presented "faultless before the PRESENCE of His glory"

              Here we have that portion of Christians who have lead exemplary lives - the Overcomers that God called out of the CHURCH in the first three Chapters of Revelation, and to whome were promised to miss the Great Tribulation and "stand before the Son of Man" (Lk.21:36; Rev.3:10). The DIFFERENCE between the two 144,000s is enormous.
              I most say this is quite odd. According to dictionary.com the definition of a seal is this: an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity. A seal can therefore be a word, so the sealed have the name of the father sealed on their forehead which makes those of chapter 7 and 14 not different but the same. Second in chapter 14 it says: And I saw, and, lo, the Lamb standing on the mount Sion, and with Him THE (Greek text) hundred forty and four thousand, having His name and His father's name written upon their foreheads. (i.e. the seal from chapter 7). Third Revelation is not about the Christian Church but about Israel. The 144.000 (of the 12 tribes of Israel) stand with the Lord on mount Sion (Israel). Daniel and Revelation are closely tight together and Daniel is about Israel: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) ... and Revelation is about the last week and Israel's future after that, not gentile Christians.

              Aristarkos

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                I most say this is quite odd. According to dictionary.com the definition of a seal is this: an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity. A seal can therefore be a word, so the sealed have the name of the father sealed on their forehead which makes those of chapter 7 and 14 not different but the same. Second in chapter 14 it says: And I saw, and, lo, the Lamb standing on the mount Sion, and with Him THE (Greek text) hundred forty and four thousand, having His name and His father's name written upon their foreheads. (i.e. the seal from chapter 7). Third Revelation is not about the Christian Church but about Israel. The 144.000 (of the 12 tribes of Israel) stand with the Lord on mount Sion (Israel). Daniel and Revelation are closely tight together and Daniel is about Israel: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) ... and Revelation is about the last week and Israel's future after that, not gentile Christians.

                Aristarkos
                So close. It is about Israel, but it shows that Israel is ONE with the church. IOW the declaration that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, and the declaration that God has removed the dividing wall, is seen as a reality in Revelation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                  Why is it that people take the 144000 as a set number of people? Also do keep in mind when and how the book of revelation was added to the bible. Then also keep in Mind that lucifer is the KING of this earth for a time there for he has the power to change and twist any book even the bible . Now I'm not saying God can't over power him what I am saying is that the dark in this world only wants you to think you know how strong it is. Also keep in mind the names for Jesus used in revelation. They are all a different person. Lamb/Tec. This book is not easy to interpret the RIGHT way. It's hard to explain in person let alone over the internet. He'll this website is monitored by those that keep the people from seeing. Don't think that anything goes unnoticed. I don't know how to explain what I want to explain with out .Well carry on guys .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                    Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                    I most say this is quite odd. According to dictionary.com the definition of a seal is this: an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity. A seal can therefore be a word, so the sealed have the name of the father sealed on their forehead which makes those of chapter 7 and 14 not different but the same. Second in chapter 14 it says: And I saw, and, lo, the Lamb standing on the mount Sion, and with Him THE (Greek text) hundred forty and four thousand, having His name and His father's name written upon their foreheads. (i.e. the seal from chapter 7). Third Revelation is not about the Christian Church but about Israel. The 144.000 (of the 12 tribes of Israel) stand with the Lord on mount Sion (Israel). Daniel and Revelation are closely tight together and Daniel is about Israel: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) ... and Revelation is about the last week and Israel's future after that, not gentile Christians.

                    Aristarkos
                    I am always encourage when I receive an answer like this. You have gone to a great length to make the Greek word "sphragizo", which means, "to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literal or figurative); by implication to keep secret, to attest". (Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.), to mean the Name of God the Father. And by this doubtful objection, leave all the rest of my THIRTEEN proofs untouched.

                    The encouragement is twofold.
                    • If a fellow student of the Bible, and brother in good standing, has to resort to this form of objection, he has more or less validated my argument which in turn makes me more sure of my understanding
                    • You are on this Forum both because you love the Bible, and because you can give vent to your knowledge of scripture. This is good because if you are correct we all learn, and if you are wrong we still learn what it is not. I am pretty sure you will reconsider after this. I myself know what it feels like to have held a belief for a long time, only to have to revise it because the evidence to the contrary was overwhelming. I also know that one belief usually requires that other scriptures fall into place and so, over the years, an intricate building is built, the which would be in danger of collapsing if this belief is changed. Therefore, I am encouraged that you will have to re-look at this matter.

                    So take your time and consider the DIFFERENCES between the earthly 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 - those of Israel who are faced with going through Jacob's Trouble of 3 years, and need to be sealed from those things which could hurt them, and those of Chapter 14 - those who, by the rebirth, have a Father in God, who stand in heaven before the throne, and who, because of an exemplary Christian life, miss the Great Tribulation. For they are "redeemed FROM the earth". The revelation of these 144,000 should be both an warning and an encouragement that NOT ALL Christians will have this privilege - for not all are judged by the Holy Spirit, "... to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 1:24).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                      Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                      So close. It is about Israel, but it shows that Israel is ONE with the church. IOW the declaration that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, and the declaration that God has removed the dividing wall, is seen as a reality in Revelation.
                      But within your statement you have contradicted yourself. You have made the condition of no ethnicity by being "IN Christ". But ...
                      • Israel refused Christ and are NOT IN Christ
                      • You have named Israel as the one party and then declared that there is, "NO JEW"

                      Take time to consider this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                        Originally posted by Miyael View Post
                        Why is it that people take the 144000 as a set number of people? Also do keep in mind when and how the book of revelation was added to the bible. Then also keep in Mind that lucifer is the KING of this earth for a time there for he has the power to change and twist any book even the bible . Now I'm not saying God can't over power him what I am saying is that the dark in this world only wants you to think you know how strong it is. Also keep in mind the names for Jesus used in revelation. They are all a different person. Lamb/Tec. This book is not easy to interpret the RIGHT way. It's hard to explain in person let alone over the internet. He'll this website is monitored by those that keep the people from seeing. Don't think that anything goes unnoticed. I don't know how to explain what I want to explain with out .Well carry on guys .
                        Up until now, if I am correct, nobody has said that the number 144,000 is literal. I mentioned above that 144,000 is a number of New Jerusalem. Any use of this "symbolic" number elsewhere is to show that these are connected to New Jerusalem. This twice used 144,000, once for an Israelite Remnant and once for Overcoming Christians, shows by it targeted use, that it most likely not a literal number. In the rest of the Bible, when God shows His people who are doing His will, the number is exact. In the grand Book of Ezra, as a faithful Remnant struggle with adversity to rebuild the Second Temple to establish a presence for God on earth, the numbers are precise:
                        • Ezra 2:3; "The children of Parosh, two thousand an hundred seventy and two."
                        • Ezra 2:6; "The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve."
                        • Ezra 2:7; "The children of Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four."

                        ... and so on.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          I am always encourage when I receive an answer like this. You have gone to a great length to make the Greek word "sphragizo", which means, "to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literal or figurative); by implication to keep secret, to attest". (Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.), to mean the Name of God the Father. And by this doubtful objection, leave all the rest of my THIRTEEN proofs untouched.
                          I don't understand the doubtfulness that the seal and the name of the father can be the same thing on the 144.000. You are correct about the Greek word sphragizo which indeed means a stamp (or a seal) which can be an image, word or words, or a combination of both. So to me it still is the same medal but the other side of it.

                          The encouragement is twofold.
                          • If a fellow student of the Bible, and brother in good standing, has to resort to this form of objection, he has more or less validated my argument which in turn makes me more sure of my understanding
                          • You are on this Forum to both because you love the Bible, and because you can give vent to your knowledge of scripture. I am pretty sure you will reconsider after this. I myself know what it feels like to have held a belief for a long time, only to have to revise it because the evidence to the contrary was overwhelming. I also know that one belief usually requires that other scriptures fall into place and so, over the years, an intricate building is built, the which would be in danger of collapsing if this belief is changed. Therefore, I am encouraged that you will have to re-look at tis matter.
                          I don't know how to explain this to you, so maybe with an example: To get from point A to B you have to keep a certain angle. To me you don't even start at point A and you've got the angle wrong as well. So you could have provided another 50 points they're all invalid because of your erroneous starting point.

                          So take your time and consider the DIFFERENCES between the earthly 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 - those of Israel who are faced with going through Jacob's Trouble of 3 years, and need to be sealed from those things which could hurt them, and those of Chapter 14 - those who, by the rebirth, have a Father in God, who stand in heaven before the throne, and who, because of an exemplary Christian life, miss the Great Tribulation. For they are "redeemed FROM the earth". The revelation of these 144,000 should be both an warning and an encouragement that NOT ALL Christians will have this privilege - for not all are judged by the Holy Spirit, "... to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 1:24)
                          I simply can't follow you here, Paul says in Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable (logikos) service. . If we keep that in mind and let Scripture explain Scripture lets look where in Scripture the number 144.000 occurs. Only in Revelation, it is good practice to find meaning of things mentioned in certain Bible books first in said Bible book itself. The only way we can conclude these are different groups is because somewhere along the line our doctrine applied to us what is said about Israel, because we cannot believe about 85% of Scripture is about that nation. This is also the case with Revelation, it is not about gentile Christians but about Israel.

                          On a side note for those who think they might as well toss their Bible in the bin when 85% is not about them: To understand the 15% (in Paul's last 7 letters) we have to understand all what has been said about Israel, so it may not be about us, but most certainly is for us as the basis to walk with Paul the whole road of salvation to the adult man of Eph.:

                          Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full grown, i.e. adult) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

                          Aristarkos

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                            Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post
                            I don't understand the doubtfulness that the seal and the name of the father can be the same thing on the 144.000. You are correct about the Greek word sphragizo which indeed means a stamp (or a seal) which can be an image, word or words, or a combination of both. So to me it still is the same medal but the other side of it.



                            I don't know how to explain this to you, so maybe with an example: To get from point A to B you have to keep a certain angle. To me you don't even start at point A and you've got the angle wrong as well. So you could have provided another 50 points they're all invalid because of your erroneous starting point.



                            I simply can't follow you here, Paul says in Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable (logikos) service. . If we keep that in mind and let Scripture explain Scripture lets look where in Scripture the number 144.000 occurs. Only in Revelation, it is good practice to find meaning of things mentioned in certain Bible books first in said Bible book itself. The only way we can conclude these are different groups is because somewhere along the line our doctrine applied to us what is said about Israel, because we cannot believe about 85% of Scripture is about that nation. This is also the case with Revelation, it is not about gentile Christians but about Israel.

                            On a side note for those who think they might as well toss their Bible in the bin when 85% is not about them: To understand the 15% (in Paul's last 7 letters) we have to understand all what has been said about Israel, so it may not be about us, but most certainly is for us as the basis to walk with Paul the whole road of salvation to the adult man of Eph.:

                            Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full grown, i.e. adult) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

                            Aristarkos
                            OK. Thanks for your reply. It is read and noted. God bless.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Pseudo 144,000 - The 12 horns of the beast

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              But within your statement you have contradicted yourself. You have made the condition of no ethnicity by being "IN Christ". But ...
                              • Israel refused Christ and are NOT IN Christ
                              • You have named Israel as the one party and then declared that there is, "NO JEW"

                              Take time to consider this.
                              No contradiction at all. I think it is your interpretation which introduces the contradiction.
                              I didn't say that people have no ethnicity in Christ. I was highlighting that ethnicity doesn't not separate us from being His children.
                              My next point is that 144,000 are not Israel who refused Christ. Instead it is Israel who HAVE accepted Christ.
                              There is ONE Olive tree into which all are grafted in. Some are of another olive tree, but that is not the view about the 144,000.

                              One other point both Rev 7 and 14 is on earth.

                              Comment

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