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  • Discussion Are they praying at the wrong place

    Could The Wailing Wall actually be part of a Roman fort known as Fort Antonia? Interesting read by Ernest L. Martin..

  • #2
    Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

    Originally posted by seeker_truth View Post
    Could The Wailing Wall actually be part of a Roman fort known as Fort Antonia? Interesting read by Ernest L. Martin..
    When I was there I was told it was the poor people's wall. It was the last remaining wall from ancient times. A lot of history there, though. Who knows?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

      Originally posted by seeker_truth View Post
      Could The Wailing Wall actually be part of a Roman fort known as Fort Antonia? Interesting read by Ernest L. Martin..
      There are two things involved concerning the so-called "Wailing Wall" of Jerusalem:
      (1)
      When Moses made the Tabernacle, and later Solomon the Temple, they were rather small and simple effigies. Later, the Second Temple was built as a copy of that of Solomon. All three consisted of a Tent in the case of the Tabernacle and a "House" in the case of the Temple. Outside of this was the "Outer Court" with the Laver and the Altar. Solomon's Temple had fallen into disrepair rather than been added to, and was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers. Zerubbabel's Temple was initially made like Solomon's Temple as there were old men involved in the building of the Second Temple, who were there when Solomon's still stood (Ezra 3:12). Then came Herod the Great, and for various reasons, he added huge amounts of real estate to the Temple including a 500 meter retaining wall around the rather small Temple.

      When Titus' soldiers burned Jerusalem and the Temple, the structure built by Zerubbabel was, as predicted by our Lord Jesus, completely destroyed. In the ensuing fire the gold of the Temple melted and ran down onto the ground under the rubble. The Romans, looking for spoil, turned over every stone where the Temple was built to get to the gold, and thus the prophecy of Matthew 24:2, "... verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down", was fulfilled in minute accuracy. But some of the retaining wall, built by Herod, and not part of the Temple that God required, survives to this day.

      It is ironic that the Jews, who worshiped idols, who swapped their God for the demon-gods of the heathen, who chose Caesar instead of Jesus when before Pontius Pilate, and who will eventually chose and worship the Beast - a Roman king, STILL PRAY AT A WALL BUILT BY A GENTILE!

      (2)
      The Lord Jesus came to build the House of God (Matt.16:18; Jn.2:19-21). This House is His Body and the Members of His Body are the Bodies of the individual Christians (1st Cor.6:15). And the Christians, just like the Tabernacle and the Temple, are made of three parts: (i) The Body is the Outer Court. The flesh must be washed (Laver) and put on the cross (Altar). (ii) The Soul is the Holy Place. It must be enlightened (Menorah), nourished by the Word of God (the showbread altar) and it formulates prayer that go up with Jesus (from the alter of incense). (iii) The Spirit of man is the Holy of Holies. It is here that God dwells. That which is born of the Holy Spirit is the spirit of a man (Jn.3:6). When our Lord Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman in John Chapter 4, the woman, in an attempt to duck the piercing questions of our Lord Jesus, turned the conversation to the correct PLACE of worship. The Samaritans, having only the Pentateuch, worshiped at Mount Gerizim. The woman then said that the Jews worshiped at Mount Moriah with its Temple. The answer of our Lord Jesus is direct and emphatic. These TWO PLACES were, since His arrival on earth, NOT VALID anymore. The TRUE and CORRECT PLACE for worshiping God is the human spirit. John 4:23-24 reads;
      23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
      24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


      Any man or woman, even a Christian, who worships God in a PLACE other than the human spirit, is outside of God's plan and desire. The Jews not only worship and pray at a Wall made by a heathen oppressor, but they worship in the totally wrong PLACE. Many Christian go to a BUILDING on various days of the week to worship THERE. It is all in vain.

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      • #4
        Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        It is ironic that the Jews, who worshiped idols, who swapped their God for the demon-gods of the heathen, who chose Caesar instead of Jesus when before Pontius Pilate, and who will eventually chose and worship the Beast - a Roman king, STILL PRAY AT A WALL BUILT BY A GENTILE!
        They're not praying TO the wall. Now that would be idolatry. They're praying to God AT the wall. 1 Kings 8 explains why.

        King Solomon prays:
        May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, ‘My Name shall be there,’ so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

        Wherever a Jew is in the world, they pray towards Jerusalem. When in Jerusalem, they pray towards the Temple Mount. The Western Wall is the closet one can come to the site of the Holy of Holies, so Jews will pray there. Facing the Temple Mount. Not praying TO the wall.

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        • #5
          Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

          Yeah. Only country western singers talk to walls.

          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            Many Christian go to a BUILDING on various days of the week to worship THERE. It is all in vain.
            Context brother... there IS a reason for gathering together and worshiping together at a location: Matthew 18:20. So... it's not vain to do as God says to do. Sure, we can pray/worship one on one with God... but He DOES want us to gather in worship to Him.
            --
            Slug1--out

            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

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            • #7
              Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              Context brother... there IS a reason for gathering together and worshiping together at a location: Matthew 18:20. So... it's not vain to do as God says to do. Sure, we can pray/worship one on one with God... but He DOES want us to gather in worship to Him.
              I saw a cool monk there actually. Wearing the robe and everything. Praying with the Jews. So that was interesting.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                They're not praying TO the wall. Now that would be idolatry. They're praying to God AT the wall. 1 Kings 8 explains why.

                King Solomon prays:
                May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, ‘My Name shall be there,’ so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

                Wherever a Jew is in the world, they pray towards Jerusalem. When in Jerusalem, they pray towards the Temple Mount. The Western Wall is the closet one can come to the site of the Holy of Holies, so Jews will pray there. Facing the Temple Mount. Not praying TO the wall.
                First, my observations are correct. They are hurtful for a Jew - but correct.

                Second, my posting did not say "TO". "AT" is what I said - like you. Let's then forget that objection.

                Third, in your verse above, according to the grammar, "THIS PLACE" is the "TEMPLE". The "Temple" was also the context of the discourse. 1st Kings 8:27-33, in ...
                • verse 27 ".... how much less this house that I have builded?"
                • verse 29 "That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place ... ."
                • verse 30 "... when they shall pray toward this place: ... thy dwelling place: ... ."
                • verse 31 "... and the oath come before thine altar in this house."
                • verse 33 "... and make supplication unto thee in this house."

                Herod's Wall might be near "that place - the Temple", but it is not part of it, is not part of God's building instructions, and was built by a Gentile ruler. A Gentile ruler is a curse upon Israel according to the Law of Moses (Lev.26:17 etc.). I am aware that this hurts, but God warned Israel, wrote it in their Law - and it came to pass. The "Wailing Wall" is an unlawful Wall built by a Gentile oppressor. If I was a Jew I would shun that Wall. It is a sign of a broken Covenant with my God.

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                • #9
                  Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Context brother... there IS a reason for gathering together and worshiping together at a location: Matthew 18:20. So... it's not vain to do as God says to do. Sure, we can pray/worship one on one with God... but He DOES want us to gather in worship to Him.
                  By Wall's reasoning, the Upper Room was all in vain....
                  Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    First, my observations are correct. They are hurtful for a Jew - but correct.
                    One of the churches in our town is in an old K-Mart. By your analogy, those members are idolaters also?

                    As to the Western Wall - it's not "hurtful" only for a Jew....many Christians have left prayers there also.

                    So you're basically insulting both Christians and Jews.
                    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                      Context brother... there IS a reason for gathering together and worshiping together at a location: Matthew 18:20. So... it's not vain to do as God says to do. Sure, we can pray/worship one on one with God... but He DOES want us to gather in worship to Him.
                      Here is the test then brother. Listen to the grammar your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
                      • "We are going to Church on Sunday to worship". By "Church" they mean the building
                      • "So-and-so is 'Worship Leader' in the Church". By "Church" they mean the building, and what on earth (or in the Bible) is "Worship Leader"? Has our Lord Jesus Christ, Who builds His Church (and I don't mean the building), forgotten something? Or have we ignored our Lord's instructions and made ourselves a non-scriptural entertainment for the soul?

                      I'm sure if you asked them to show you the "Worship Leader" in this verse, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                        Originally posted by keck553 View Post
                        One of the churches in our town is in an old K-Mart. By your analogy, those members are idolaters also?

                        As to the Western Wall - it's not "hurtful" only for a Jew....many Christians have left prayers there also.

                        So you're basically insulting both Christians and Jews.
                        That, my friend, is a poor counter-argument. Either my observations are correct, and you must agree with me, or you must show them to be incorrect. If they are correct and someone is offended - am I to blame? Am I to blame that a Gentile king over Judah is a curse of the Law? And am I to blame if he used Jewish taxes to build an effigy that God did not require for His House? And is it given to the Gentile oppressors of Israel to build God's House? Who then can be offended if it is the truth?

                        In John 2:16 our Lord Jesus called the Temple, "My Father's House". But then comes that utterly devastating and damning statement in Matthew 23:38 and Luke 13:35:

                        "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

                        God had removed Himself AND His Emmanuel - Jesus, from the Temple, and it was now an EMPTY EFFIGY BELONGING TO THE JEWS. God has forsaken His House and left it over to a REJECT NATION with whom He had nothing more to do except apply the curses of the Law on them for the next two thousand years. Is this offensive? I think not. It is the cutting truth, which, if Israel had acted on it, they would be the leading nation on earth for these two thousand years.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          Here is the test then brother. Listen to the grammar your brothers and sisters in the Lord. [LIST][*]"We are going to Church on Sunday to worship". By "Church" they mean the building
                          No they don't. It's just an idiom. I say "I'm going to Church" all the time. You're being legalistic here.

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          [*]"So-and-so is 'Worship Leader' in the Church". By "Church" they mean the building, and what on earth (or in the Bible) is "Worship Leader"?
                          In Psalm's that person is called "the music leader" (if that is what you are referring to). So yes, it is Biblical to use that phrase.

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          Has our Lord Jesus Christ, Who builds His Church (and I don't mean the building), forgotten something? Or have we ignored our Lord's instructions and made ourselves a non-scriptural entertainment for the soul?
                          God invented music, so no He hasn't forgotten anything. Just because it is not a 'office' like 'congregation leader' (also a Biblical term) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post

                          I'm sure if you asked them to show you the "Worship Leader" in this verse, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
                          So we are not allowed to worship God in truth and spirit in song?

                          Take a look at:

                          Psalm 95
                          Ephesians 5:19
                          Hebrews 2:12
                          Psalm 71
                          Exodus 15:1
                          Psalm 105
                          Psalm 49
                          Psalm 101
                          Psalm 150
                          Colossians 3:16
                          Psalm 98
                          Revelation 14:3-4
                          Psalm 135
                          Amos 6:5
                          Psalm 57
                          2 Chronicles 5:13
                          Psalm 40

                          And many other places. God is about freedom to express our love to Him. God is about living, breathing and exhaling praise to Him. God is about joy and dancing and being alive.

                          Joy. Life. Shalom. Dancing before Him! Shout to the LORD! THAT is what worshipping in spirit and in truth is about, among other things.

                          God is not about worshipping Him as if we are attending a funeral.
                          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            That, my friend, is a poor counter-argument. Either my observations are correct, and you must agree with me, or you must show them to be incorrect.
                            I don't have to agree with you, and I don't need a reason that satisfies you. If you don't accept it, that's on you, not me. Please don't attempt that manipulation with me, it won't work.
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            If they are correct and someone is offended - am I to blame? Am I to blame that a Gentile king over Judah is a curse of the Law? And am I to blame if he used Jewish taxes to build an effigy that God did not require for His House? And is it given to the Gentile oppressors of Israel to build God's House? Who then can be offended if it is the truth?
                            I didn't say anyone was offended. I said you insulted them. They probably don't care if you insult them (I don't). So don't give your accusations more relevance than they deserve.
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            In John 2:16 our Lord Jesus called the Temple, "My Father's House". But then comes that utterly devastating and damning statement in Matthew 23:38 and Luke 13:35:
                            Context actually means something in the Bible.

                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
                            Again, context actually means something in the Bible. Otherwise the Apostles (including Paul) wouldn't be going to the Temple regularly after Pentecost.
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            God had removed Himself AND His Emmanuel - Jesus, from the Temple, and it was now an EMPTY EFFIGY BELONGING TO THE JEWS. God has forsaken His House and left it over to a REJECT NATION with whom He had nothing more to do except apply the curses of the Law on them for the next two thousand years. Is this offensive? I think not. It is the cutting truth, which, if Israel had acted on it, they would be the leading nation on earth for these two thousand years.
                            You might want to heed a warning Paul gave to this lofty attitude:

                            If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

                            22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
                            Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Are they praying at the wrong place

                              After i became a believer i wondered to whom those at the wall were praying to..

                              John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


                              Jude
                              A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

                              ~ Smith Wigglesworth

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