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  • Scripture forbids mortals entering the new earth

    1 Corinthians 15:50-55 plainly declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    This reading is speaking about the change that occurs at the Second Coming. It is describing the change that is required to inherit the new earth. It is talking about an obligatory change that must happen in order for men to be able to inhabit the new earth. It is not just that our corruptible bodies will be changed; it is that they must be changed. Why? The kingdom that they are going to inherit is an incorrupt one. It has been purged by fire of all the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-23) thus restoring it back to its original state – pristine and perfect. It is not just that we are changed, but the earth is correspondingly and simultaneously changed.

    Premils talk about the millennial kingdom or simply the kingdom. Well, this kingdom is an incorrupt one. Every vestige of the fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. Plainly: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This eliminates the oft stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal will inhabit it. This is an absolute and must challenge the Premillennial thinking.

    1 Corinthians 15:42-44 makes clear: the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”

    It is plain to see, for man to be able to inherit the new glorified earth – which is totally free of the curse – he must be suitably fitted for it. His whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible man is not only changed, but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s Coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

    Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

    If the believer needs completely changed in order to make him fit to enter the new regenerated earth then how could the unbeliever enter the same without this change? How can unregenerate mortals inherit the incorruptible earth in their fallen nature, when believers need glorified to allow them entry? Such a notion is untenable. When Paul explains that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," he is demonstrating why the resurrection is necessary. Paul is showing why the resurrection is required in order for a person to enter that curse-free domain.

    No one could surely argue against the fact that this reading is talking about Christ's Coming. It is expressly outlining the conditions of entry for the new earth - no mortals are allowed. It says, "flesh and blood (or mortals humans) cannot inherit the kingdom of God (the final glorious kingdom that will come to earth); neither doth corruption (our current fallen state) inherit incorruption (the new glorified pristine earth). The reason being, the earth will be made incorrupt at His appearing. This creates a difficulty for man - he is sinful and corrupt. God then has to change him to make him worthy of the kingdom inhabitancy. This he does by changing us from corruption to incorruption - glorification.

    The whole context of 1 Corinthians 15 is the perfecting of the believer’s body by “the resurrection of the dead” where he is “raised in incorruption,” “raised in glory,” “raised in power” and “raised a spiritual body.” Why? Because “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The earth that the redeemed inherit is perfect. It is purged of every vestige of the fall by fire. It is wonderfully glorified and prepared for the equally glorified saints.

    In short, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 shows why glorification is necessary - "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." The new earth inhabitants must of necessity be immediately changed to enter the new glorified kingdom. As there was a commonality in the fall, so there will be a commonality in the glorification. The belief therefore amongst some Premils that the new glorified earth does not occur to the end of the Premillennial millennium makes this change premature – 1,000 yrs+ premature.

    The whole glorification process could be put on hold for 1,000 yrs until the second Premillennial new earth comes along, as the new millennial earth is corrupt, sinful and full of death and rebellion. It culminates in billions of millennial inhabitants rising up to surround Christ and the saints at the end. The Premil new earth is therefore little different from today. It is plagued by corruption. In essence what you have (despite what this passage explicitly says) is incorruption inheriting corruption; the glorified saints inheriting an unglorified earth.

    Some Premils argues it will be a purified new earth; however, the reality is it is no different than our own earth. Even if one accepted this Premil response, you have corruption (in the form of the supposed mortal millennial saints) inheriting incorruption (in the form of a glorified earth). This just doesn’t add up. Whatever way you look at this, it just doesn’t make sense. This is contrary to what Scripture is saying here. What will in fact be ushered in is an incorrupt kingdom. It is a purified new earth devoid of the bondage of corruption. Premillennial must reject this in the light of their interpretation of Revelation 20. In fact, take Revelation 20 out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing explicit to build its paradigm on.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  • #2
    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:50-55 plainly declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    This reading is speaking about the change that occurs at the Second Coming. It is describing the change that is required to inherit the new earth. It is talking about an obligatory change that must happen in order for men to be able to inhabit the new earth.


    The New Earth is not mentioned here. It is only talking about the Kingdom of God. THis scripture is dealing with the current condition, where no flesh or blood can inherit the Kingdom of God. Only those who are born again, believers, can inherit the Kingdom, and even then, our mortal bodies can not inherit the Kingdom. There is no mention of any earth, let alone the "New Earth", in this passage, and thus is irrelevant for the End Times discussion.

    It is not just that our corruptible bodies will be changed; it is that they must be changed. Why? The kingdom that they are going to inherit is an incorrupt one. It has been purged by fire of all the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-23) thus restoring it back to its original state – pristine and perfect. It is not just that we are changed, but the earth is correspondingly and simultaneously changed.[/quote]

    This was never in question. What is in question is the time in which the New Earth will appear, and according to Revelation, it does not happen until every last enemy of God is defeated and sent into the Lake.

    Premils talk about the millennial kingdom or simply the kingdom. Well, this kingdom is an incorrupt one. Every vestige of the fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. Plainly: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This eliminates the oft stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal will inhabit it. This is an absolute and must challenge the Premillennial thinking.


    I see. Again, since you have been finding it difficult to rebuke Premil doctrine, you have to go into tangeants in order to prove what has been disproven in previous threads. How ironic. What premils consider is Revelation 20:4-10, where there is a period in time, as written, where the evil one is sealed away from the earth, and the world is under the DIRECT sugjugation of Lord Jesus. This Kingdom is the Lord's Kingdom, and He will reign in it until the New Earth is ready. When that happens, well, let scripture tell the tale.

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2

    As we see here, the new earth begins, with the old earth, this one, dead; hence the term, "passed away". This happens when? According to Revelation 20-21, it happens after Satan is imprisoned, after his release 1000 years later, after the last day rebellion, and after the GWT judgment, when ALL of the wicked are hurled into the Lake of eternal destruction. (Revelation 20:1-15).

    One other thing. Notice that New Jerusalem is hailed as the city prepared fro the bride, who has been married to Lord Jesus during His return, some 1000+ years earlier, in chapter 19? The New Jerusalem, the new city of God on the New earth, does not come into existence until the Lord has not only married Himself with the church, has ruled this current earth, and done away with all of the Lord's enemies at the GWT. According to Revelation 19:11-20:15, at least 1000 years pass between the marriage and the move to New Jerusalem.


    1 Corinthians 15:42-44 makes clear:
    the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”

    It is plain to see, for man to be able to inherit the new glorified earth – which is totally free of the curse – he must be suitably fitted for it. His whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible man is not only changed, but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s Coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

    Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

    If the believer needs completely changed in order to make him fit to enter the new regenerated earth then how could the unbeliever enter the same without this change? How can unregenerate mortals inherit the incorruptible earth in their fallen nature, when believers need glorified to allow them entry? Such a notion is untenable. When Paul explains that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," he is demonstrating why the resurrection is necessary. Paul is showing why the resurrection is required in order for a person to enter that curse-free domain.



    So, you write all of this in order to say that since the Righteous are resurrected to life when the Lord returns, that the wicked are resurrected to destruction at the same time? Revelation 19 debunks that notion. The Saints are with Lord Jesus in the air, (verse 11-12), and yet, the wicked are on the earth, awaiting their destruction. The Wicked are not resurrrected then, but killed. The Lord defeated all of the armies of the world, at one battle, in one place. This has nothing to do with your idea that because flesh is found during the MIllennium, that the Kingdom that will be present there is not the Kingdom of God.

    According to Daniel 7 and Revelation 20, the saints gain control of the earth. According ot Revelation 7, the saints who come out of the Great Tribulation are with Jesus perpetually, and if they are on the earth while the Lord is on it, even in their incorruptible bodies, they will represent the Lord's Kingdom, even as rulers over the heathen that are left.

    No one could surely argue against the fact that this reading is talking about Christ's Coming. It is expressly outlining the conditions of entry for the new earth - no mortals are allowed. It says, "flesh and blood (or mortals humans) cannot inherit the kingdom of God (the final glorious kingdom that will come to earth); neither doth corruption (our current fallen state) inherit incorruption (the new glorified pristine earth). The reason being, the earth will be made incorrupt at His appearing. This creates a difficulty for man - he is sinful and corrupt. God then has to change him to make him worthy of the kingdom inhabitancy. This he does by changing us from corruption to incorruption - glorification.

    The whole context of 1 Corinthians 15 is the perfecting of the believer’s body by “the resurrection of the dead” where he is “raised in incorruption,” “raised in glory,” “raised in power” and “raised a spiritual body.” Why? Because “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The earth that the redeemed inherit is perfect. It is purged of every vestige of the fall by fire. It is wonderfully glorified and prepared for the equally glorified saints.

    In short, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 shows why glorification is necessary - "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." The new earth inhabitants must of necessity be immediately changed to enter the new glorified kingdom. As there was a commonality in the fall, so there will be a commonality in the glorification. The belief therefore amongst some Premils that the new glorified earth does not occur to the end of the Premillennial millennium makes this change premature – 1,000 yrs+ premature.


    The changing of the saints do not change the facts. In Revelation 20:4-6, we see the immortal saints, ruling the earth during the millennium of Satan's imprisonment. This is not premil banter, but scripture. Again, you're achilles heel is the actual scriptures themselves. I didn't write them, I merely believe them.

    The whole glorification process could be put on hold for 1,000 yrs until the second Premillennial new earth comes along, as the new millennial earth is corrupt, sinful and full of death and rebellion. It culminates in billions of millennial inhabitants rising up to surround Christ and the saints at the end. The Premil new earth is therefore little different from today. It is plagued by corruption. In essence what you have (despite what Scripture explicitly says) is incorruption inheriting corruption; the glorified saints inheriting an unglorified earth.

    Premil argues it will be a purified new earth; however, the reality is it is no different than our own earth. Even if one accepted this Premil reponse, you have corruption (in the form of the supposed mortal millennial saints) inheriting incorruption (in the form of a glorified earth). This just doesn’t add up. Whatever way you look at this, it just doesn’t make sense. This is contrary to what Scripture is saying here. What will in fact be ushered in is an incorrupt kingdom. It is a purified new earth devoid of the bondage of corruption. Premillennial must reject this in the light of their interpretation of Revelation 20. In fact, take Revelation 20 out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing explicit to build its paradigm on.

    No matter how you slice it, your debate is not with premils, but scripture. No matter how you try to evolutionize the scriptures, the scriptures speak for themselves. IF a spirit being is to be locked up and sealed away for 1000 years, and the immortal believers are to rule the world with Christ for not only that time, but until the end of the earth, (Daniel 7:22, 27; Revelation 20:4-10), then the glorification of the church has to happen 1000 years prior to the GWT judgment. Again, scripture speaks.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wpm View Post
      Some Premils argues it will be a purified new earth; however, the reality is it is no different than our own earth. Even if one accepted this Premil response, you have corruption (in the form of the supposed mortal millennial saints) inheriting incorruption (in the form of a glorified earth). This just doesn’t add up. Whatever way you look at this, it just doesn’t make sense. This is contrary to what Scripture is saying here. What will in fact be ushered in is an incorrupt kingdom. It is a purified new earth devoid of the bondage of corruption. Premillennial must reject this in the light of their interpretation of Revelation 20. In fact, take Revelation 20 out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing explicit to build its paradigm on.
      wpm, the following verses indicate that the whole earth will NOT be destroyed at the second coming. Each verse either indicates that some nations will survive (normally in the context of a disciplined rule under the iron rod), or that some regions will survive:

      Zechariah 12/13 , Zephaniah , Joel 3, Ezekiel 38/39 , Isaiah 2, Rev 19:15, Jeremiah 4:27 , Isaiah 25, Daniel 7, Rev 11:15, Zechariah 8, Isaiah 34, Isaiah 61, Zechariah 14, Psalm 2

      I believe it would be very difficult to explain each one of these verses as being represented in a spiritual manner by the current church age. To me these speak about a literal age of Messianic rule on this earth that has never happened yet.

      Here's a thought, in the OT the Jews were concerned about Mount Zion, Jerusalem and the future physical destiny of Israel. They received prophecies concerning a future period of peace on this earth, after their Messiah established His rule with a rod of iron, and Israel becomes the blessed nation as always prophesied from the beginning of the Israelites as a nation.

      Then in the NT we are more concerned with spiritual salvation, knowing the truth of the cross. The receiving of our resurrection bodies and our eternal destiny at the Second Coming is of paramount importance rather than a focus on the future physical destiny of Israel. We are told again and again to be prepared and to keep our faith to the end, when Jesus comes. So the prophecies are mainly concerned with our destiny following the second coming, either eternal life or eternal damnation, life with Christ or the lake of fire. Whether we are in the camp of the saints (Rev 20) for 1000 years or in the heavenly Jerusalem or the New Earth is less significant to us as Christians, whichever way we reign with Christ forever and have our resurrection bodies. Rev 20 explains the sequence in more detail, explaining how the period of Messianic rule fits into this post second-coming period, but our destiny as Christians is sealed at the second coming, what follows the second coming does not affect us at all, we have our full blessing with Christ.
      Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 9th 2008, 10:30 AM. Reason: Edit

      Comment


      • #4
        third hero,

        The New Earth is not mentioned here. It is only talking about the Kingdom of God.
        Please definition what "kingdom of God" means?

        Secondly, please definition, 'you must be born again, or cannot enter the "kingdom of God" - John 3:3,5 what Christ was talking about?

        In Revelation 20:4-6, we see the immortal saints, ruling the earth during the millennium of Satan's imprisonment
        Immortal saints beyond Christs' 'coming'? Isn't Rev. 20:4-6 conflicts with 1 Cor. 15:51-54 clearly telling us that all saints' mortal bodies will put away and changed into immortal at Christ's coming?

        Notice Rev. 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

        This verse tells us, John saw saints' souls are now in heaven after they were killed for keeping their testimony in ther life. Because, they had overcame the world of their faith in life.

        Notice Rev. 20:6 says:

        "Blessed and holy is he that [B]hath part in 'the first resurrection': on such 'the second death' hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

        This verse speaks of saints' destiny that, anyone who did overcame the world in the life at their death, now they have their part of "the first resurrection" which speaks of have eternal life with Christ is the picture of salvation.

        So, that the "the second death" cannot overcome saints' souls after they already died, which it speaks of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire separate from God.

        Therefore, the scene of Rev. 20:4-6 speaking of overcomers who already died in their testimony of life, that they already overcame the world in the faith, NOW their souls are in the heaven, reigning with Christ for a thousand years, that is called, "the first resurrection". Thousands or millions of Christians who already died, and their souls are in heaven are reigning with Christ for nearly 2,000 years now since Christ became the firstfruits of the resurreaction at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

        DurbanDue,

        the following verses indicate that the whole earth will NOT be destroyed at the second coming

        In 2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, Peter and Christians are earnest looking forward for new heavens and a new new earth that, will be follow at the Day of the Lord come. We are earnest looking for Lord's coming that, the present heavens and present old earth will be destroyed with fire, so, we are looking for new heavens and a new earth will be created same time.

        2 Peter 3:10-13 did not saying that we will have to wait for another one thousand years after His 'coming' to see new heavens and a new earth to be created. This passage clearly telling us, this present old earth will be burned with fire at His coming same time so, so we will looking for new heavens and a new earth will be create right after his coming, not wait another one thousand years later after His coming.

        In Christ
        Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DeafPosttrib View Post
          third hero,



          Please definition what "kingdom of God" means?

          Secondly, please definition, 'you must be born again, or cannot enter the "kingdom of God" - John 3:3,5 what Christ was talking about?
          Is the New Earth the Kingdom of God? If this is so, then the Kingdom of God does not exist yet, for it can not exist until this earth is destroyed. And so no, the Kingdom of God does NOT ean the new earth.

          What is the Kingdom of God? Is it not the believers? Is it not the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, who has paid the price for all of our sins? If this is the case, and it is, then how can you redefine what the Bible has clearly defined? The Kingdom of God is not relegated to a location, but rather to a person. The Kingdom of God is related to Lord Jesus, and wherever He goes, the Kingdom goes with Him. This is what it means when the Father said to the Lord, "you are my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

          You see, if Lord Jesus ends up taking over the world, and rules it from Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God will have come to this earth. When the Lord returns, He brings the Kingdom with Him. When the Lord goes to the New Earth, the Kingdom will go with Him. His Kingdom is perpetual, with no end. It is not tied to New Jerusalem, the New Earth, or even this one. It is tied to God's Son, a fact that I feel is being severely overlooked.

          Immortal saints beyond Christs' 'coming'? Isn't Rev. 20:4-6 conflicts with 1 Cor. 15:51-54 clearly telling us that all saints' mortal bodies will put away and changed into immortal at Christ's coming?
          Come on, this is false if ever there is a false statement out there. There is no contradiction between 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20. The contradiction lies in the Amil doctrine, stating that the Lord will destroy everything when He returns, when according to both 1 corinthians and Revelation 20, the saints are raised from the dead. And although Revelation 20 does not specifically mention the saints that live through the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7 does. And so, the whole group of people who have come out of the Great Tribulation, both the ones who lost their heads, and the ones who were rescued, are changed into immortals, as described in 1 Corinthian 15.

          Notice Rev. 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they LIVED and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

          This verse tells us, John saw saints' souls are now in heaven after they were killed for keeping their testimony in ther life. Because, they had overcame the world of their faith in life.
          Sorry about that, but you are incorrect. The souls are those who are mentioned in Revelation 15, aka those who have lost their heads because of their testimonies. These are not the souls who are now in heaven, aka the souls under the altar.

          Notice Rev. 20:6 says:

          "Blessed and holy is he that [b]hath part in 'the first resurrection': on such 'the second death' hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

          This verse speaks of saints' destiny that, anyone who did overcame the world in the life at their death, now they have their part of "the first resurrection" which speaks of have eternal life with Christ is the picture of salvation.

          So, that the "the second death" cannot overcome saints' souls after they already died, which it speaks of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire separate from God.

          Therefore, the scene of Rev. 20:4-6 speaking of overcomers who already died in their testimony of life, that they already overcame the world in the faith, NOW their souls are in the heaven, reigning with Christ for a thousand years, that is called, "the first resurrection". Thousands or millions of Christians who already died, and their souls are in heaven are reigning with Christ for nearly 2,000 years now since Christ became the firstfruits of the resurreaction at His resurrection 2000 years ago.
          Although it is true that those who are a part of the first resurrrection will not have to worry about the second death, it is not true as to whom Revelation 20:4-6 are talking about. By reading Revelation 14-20, we find that chapter 15 shows the souls of the Tribulation saints who overcome the enemy. These are not the same as those who have died from the point of Christ's resurrection to today. Those souls are under the altar in heaven, singing a song about the Lord taking vengeance upon the earth.

          Again, the only contradiction is the amil doctrine in comparison to Revelation 20, and other scriptures that support it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Are there any other verses that prove this point or just one?

            Because if we're going with the "one verse establishes doctrine" point, then the one mention (six times) of the "1000 years" seems way more clear in establishing an end-times context than this verse from 1 Cor. 15 which doesn't say what's being presented here nearly as straightforward as Rev. 20.

            Just sayin'
            The Rookie

            Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by third hero View Post

              The New Earth is not mentioned here. It is only talking about the Kingdom of God. THis scripture is dealing with the current condition, where no flesh or blood can inherit the Kingdom of God. Only those who are born again, believers, can inherit the Kingdom, and even then, our mortal bodies can not inherit the Kingdom. There is no mention of any earth, let alone the "New Earth", in this passage, and thus is irrelevant for the End Times discussion.

              It is not just that our corruptible bodies will be changed; it is that they must be changed. Why? The kingdom that they are going to inherit is an incorrupt one. It has been purged by fire of all the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-23) thus restoring it back to its original state – pristine and perfect. It is not just that we are changed, but the earth is correspondingly and simultaneously changed.

              This was never in question. What is in question is the time in which the New Earth will appear, and according to Revelation, it does not happen until every last enemy of God is defeated and sent into the Lake.

              I see. Again, since you have been finding it difficult to rebuke Premil doctrine, you have to go into tangeants in order to prove what has been disproven in previous threads. How ironic. What premils consider is Revelation 20:4-10, where there is a period in time, as written, where the evil one is sealed away from the earth, and the world is under the DIRECT sugjugation of Lord Jesus. This Kingdom is the Lord's Kingdom, and He will reign in it until the New Earth is ready. When that happens, well, let scripture tell the tale.

              And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2

              As we see here, the new earth begins, with the old earth, this one, dead; hence the term, "passed away". This happens when? According to Revelation 20-21, it happens after Satan is imprisoned, after his release 1000 years later, after the last day rebellion, and after the GWT judgment, when ALL of the wicked are hurled into the Lake of eternal destruction. (Revelation 20:1-15).

              One other thing. Notice that New Jerusalem is hailed as the city prepared fro the bride, who has been married to Lord Jesus during His return, some 1000+ years earlier, in chapter 19? The New Jerusalem, the new city of God on the New earth, does not come into existence until the Lord has not only married Himself with the church, has ruled this current earth, and done away with all of the Lord's enemies at the GWT. According to Revelation 19:11-20:15, at least 1000 years pass between the marriage and the move to New Jerusalem.

              So, you write all of this in order to say that since the Righteous are resurrected to life when the Lord returns, that the wicked are resurrected to destruction at the same time? Revelation 19 debunks that notion. The Saints are with Lord Jesus in the air, (verse 11-12), and yet, the wicked are on the earth, awaiting their destruction. The Wicked are not resurrrected then, but killed. The Lord defeated all of the armies of the world, at one battle, in one place. This has nothing to do with your idea that because flesh is found during the MIllennium, that the Kingdom that will be present there is not the Kingdom of God.

              According to Daniel 7 and Revelation 20, the saints gain control of the earth. According ot Revelation 7, the saints who come out of the Great Tribulation are with Jesus perpetually, and if they are on the earth while the Lord is on it, even in their incorruptible bodies, they will represent the Lord's Kingdom, even as rulers over the heathen that are left.

              The changing of the saints do not change the facts. In Revelation 20:4-6, we see the immortal saints, ruling the earth during the millennium of Satan's imprisonment. This is not premil banter, but scripture. Again, you're achilles heel is the actual scriptures themselves. I didn't write them, I merely believe them.

              No matter how you slice it, your debate is not with premils, but scripture. No matter how you try to evolutionize the scriptures, the scriptures speak for themselves. IF a spirit being is to be locked up and sealed away for 1000 years, and the immortal believers are to rule the world with Christ for not only that time, but until the end of the earth, (Daniel 7:22, 27; Revelation 20:4-10), then the glorification of the church has to happen 1000 years prior to the GWT judgment. Again, scripture speaks.

              There is nothing here that you present which is a direct rebuttal of my points. You are just saying: 'I disagree, and this is what Rev 20 says'. Please address what I am saying. Forget about Rev 20 for one minute. It seems like it doesn't matter what clear and explicit passage Premils bring up the debate always gravitates toward Rev 20. This is one major difficulty Amils and Postmils have with Premil - it is depentant upon their opinion of one lone chapter. Look at the Matthew 25 discussion. You won't directly address the problems Premils face with that clear reading. I am still getting you to answer one simple question: are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?
              We have had countless discussions on Rev 20, I have repeatedly showed you Rev 20 is the beginning of the 7th recapitulation in Revelation. That Jesus is the first resurrection. Satan has been spiritually bound by the earthly mission of Christ. The new earth does not arrive until the end of the millennium (not the start as you claim). So I would appreciate it if you please address my several points here and keep it on topic.

              I have one question on your comments: I thought you locate Isa 65 describing the new heavens and new earth at the beginning of the millennium not the end? Am I correct? Please clarify this.
              Last edited by wpm; Dec 9th 2008, 06:31 PM.
              "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

              http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

              WPM

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                wpm, the following verses indicate that the whole earth will NOT be destroyed at the second coming. Each verse either indicates that some nations will survive (normally in the context of a disciplined rule under the iron rod), or that some regions will survive:

                Zechariah 12/13 , Zephaniah , Joel 3, Ezekiel 38/39 , Isaiah 2, Rev 19:15, Jeremiah 4:27 , Isaiah 25, Daniel 7, Rev 11:15, Zechariah 8, Isaiah 34, Isaiah 61, Zechariah 14, Psalm 2

                I believe it would be very difficult to explain each one of these verses as being represented in a spiritual manner by the current church age. To me these speak about a literal age of Messianic rule on this earth that has never happened yet.

                Here's a thought, in the OT the Jews were concerned about Mount Zion, Jerusalem and the future physical destiny of Israel. They received prophecies concerning a future period of peace on this earth, after their Messiah established His rule with a rod of iron, and Israel becomes the blessed nation as always prophesied from the beginning of the Israelites as a nation.

                Then in the NT we are more concerned with spiritual salvation, knowing the truth of the cross. The receiving of our resurrection bodies and our eternal destiny at the Second Coming is of paramount importance rather than a focus on the future physical destiny of Israel. We are told again and again to be prepared and to keep our faith to the end, when Jesus comes. So the prophecies are mainly concerned with our destiny following the second coming, either eternal life or eternal damnation, life with Christ or the lake of fire. Whether we are in the camp of the saints (Rev 20) for 1000 years or in the heavenly Jerusalem or the New Earth is less significant to us as Christians, whichever way we reign with Christ forever and have our resurrection bodies. Rev 20 explains the sequence in more detail, explaining how the period of Messianic rule fits into this post second-coming period, but our destiny as Christians is sealed at the second coming, what follows the second coming does not affect us at all, we have our full blessing with Christ.
                Again, like 3H you have failed to address the passages/arguments in view. It seems to me that Premil always wants to change the debate to Rev 20. I must insist on us staying on subject. I feel that is the only pay I can pin a passage down. I am not going to sidetrack until we have dealt with this passage that I feel challenges the Premil paradigm. I want to see explanations.
                Last edited by wpm; Dec 9th 2008, 06:32 PM.
                "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                WPM

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                  Are there any other verses that prove this point or just one?

                  Because if we're going with the "one verse establishes doctrine" point, then the one mention (six times) of the "1000 years" seems way more clear in establishing an end-times context than this verse from 1 Cor. 15 which doesn't say what's being presented here nearly as straightforward as Rev. 20.

                  Just sayin'
                  As you know, I have many passages that rebut the Premil belief, I am just trying (unsucessfully I admit) to get Premil to address other Scripture outside of Rev 20.

                  I have much Scripture to corroborate what I am saying here. I thought I had enough meat here to digest for the moment before moving on.
                  "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                  http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                  WPM

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What if...*gasp*...what if.... we could find 1 point to agree on? Then maybe another one. *shudder*
                    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                    Not second or third, but first.
                    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                    when He is the source of all hope,
                    when His love is received and freely given,
                    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                    will all other things be added unto to you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wpm View Post
                      We have had countless discussions on Rev 20, I have repeatedly showed you Rev 20 is the beginning of the 7th recapitulation in Revelation. That Jesus is the first resurrection. Satan has been spiritually bound by the earthly mission of Christ. The new earth does not arrive until the end of the millennium (not the start as you claim). So I would appreciate it if you please address my several points here and keep it on topic.


                      As many times as we have had discussions on Revelation 20, you have failed to show how the details written in that book are figurative. You claim that God can not have an angel bind a spirit being (Satan), in chains, and seal him away in the bottomless pit for 1000 year, and you base that claim on the fact that the enemy is a spirit being. I hqave disproved that, countering with the FACT that the Angel is a spirit being, the chain is a real chain made from material in the heavenlies that are capable of binding a spirit being, and the Lord is VERY capable of locking away the enemy. I have not read any sort of satisfactory response to that point.

                      I have one question on your comments: I thought you locate Isa 65 describing the new heavens and new earth at the beginning of the millennium not the end? Am I correct? Please clarify this.
                      The New Heaven and earth, as described in Revelation 21, is devoid of death. Death is clearly present in Isaiah 65:19-20. Therefore, this passage has to fit another time period, a period where although death is weakened, it is still present. And so, by combining scripture from 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Revelation 20:1-10, Zechariah 14, and Psalm 2, I have found that the Bible clearly talks about a time when The Lor4d rules this earth, and not just the one in the future.

                      And then I have found that in Revelation 16:17-20, the earth, this one, is changed forever. The mountains fall and the islands disappear, due to a massive earthquake that is the seventh vial of God's wrath. What i have deduced is this.

                      The Lord sometimes shows prophets glimpses of the future in visions. If Isaiah seen a world devoid of mountains except for Mount Moriah, and a perpetual peace that is not found in this earth, then it would be easy for him to say that this is a new earth, which it would be. If any of us would live to see the Millennium, we would not be able to recognize this planet, because all of the mountains and islands would be gone. It may not be new in it's truest word, but it would be new to just about everyone who has lived in this planet.

                      Therefore, Isaiah 65 fits into the Millennium, because of the fact that the Old Order, including sin and death, would be extinguished when the New Earth is created, after this earth passes away. Verse 19-20 explains it all.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wpm View Post
                        As you know, I have many passages that rebut the Premil belief, I am just trying (unsucessfully I admit) to get Premil to address other Scripture outside of Rev 20.

                        I have much Scripture to corroborate what I am saying here. I thought I had enough meat here to digest for the moment before moving on.
                        Here is what I compare what you are attempting to do, the 2007 New England Patriots.

                        You see, until a virtual unknown receiver caught a 4th down and long pass in the Super Bowl, the Paztriots were undefeated. However, the catch happened, and then the NY Giants won the super bowl. Like the patriots, you say, "well let's look outside of Revelation 20, while premils stand on the fact that Revelation 20 exists. Therefore, like the NE Patriots, you have to accept that reality. I know you do not like that reality, much like the almost undefeated Patriots don't like the results of that Super Bowl, but you are going to have to accept it.

                        Most of the Premils here, myself included, accept the scripture as written, and because of that, you will not be able to turn anyone against what is actually written there. It says that Satan will be bound in the Abyss for 1000 years. It says that the Tribulation saints are going to rule this world with Christ for that entire time. It says that Satan will be released, and it also says that he will attempt a coup to take back the earth from the Lord. It also says that Our Heavenly Father will destroy all of the wicked by fire. Then, after all of that, the Lord announces judgment against all mankind, and heaven and earth disappear. We then see the judgment of mankind, including all of the dead. After alll of that, we see the New Earth come into being, with the city of God that wass promied the believers.

                        This is what we see in those scriptures, and this is what we believe. Like it or not, the scriptures state all of this. Therefore, no matter how much you want to deviate the discussion concerning the Millennium away from Revelation 20, Premils will continue to bring that back up, since it is scripture.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by third hero View Post
                          [/size][/font]

                          As many times as we have had discussions on Revelation 20, you have failed to show how the details written in that book are figurative. You claim that God can not have an angel bind a spirit being (Satan), in chains, and seal him away in the bottomless pit for 1000 year, and you base that claim on the fact that the enemy is a spirit being. I hqave disproved that, countering with the FACT that the Angel is a spirit being, the chain is a real chain made from material in the heavenlies that are capable of binding a spirit being, and the Lord is VERY capable of locking away the enemy. I have not read any sort of satisfactory response to that point.

                          The New Heaven and earth, as described in Revelation 21, is devoid of death. Death is clearly present in Isaiah 65:19-20. Therefore, this passage has to fit another time period, a period where although death is weakened, it is still present. And so, by combining scripture from 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Revelation 20:1-10, Zechariah 14, and Psalm 2, I have found that the Bible clearly talks about a time when The Lor4d rules this earth, and not just the one in the future.

                          And then I have found that in Revelation 16:17-20, the earth, this one, is changed forever. The mountains fall and the islands disappear, due to a massive earthquake that is the seventh vial of God's wrath. What i have deduced is this.

                          The Lord sometimes shows prophets glimpses of the future in visions. If Isaiah seen a world devoid of mountains except for Mount Moriah, and a perpetual peace that is not found in this earth, then it would be easy for him to say that this is a new earth, which it would be. If any of us would live to see the Millennium, we would not be able to recognize this planet, because all of the mountains and islands would be gone. It may not be new in it's truest word, but it would be new to just about everyone who has lived in this planet.

                          Therefore, Isaiah 65 fits into the Millennium, because of the fact that the Old Order, including sin and death, would be extinguished when the New Earth is created, after this earth passes away. Verse 19-20 explains it all.
                          Revelation 20

                          You seem determined to side-track this thread unto Rev 20. I will say by way of closure on this diversion on this thread: no one has addressed your views on Rev 20 in more detail than myself. I feel I have (1) rebutted your position directly and repeteadly, and (2) have corroborated the Amil position with much biblical support, yet you simply dismiss it. I honestly believe that Amil is the only Mill position with corroboartion on Rev 20.

                          I have showed you repeated Scripture that shows Christ the first resurrection Colossians 1:18, Acts 26:23. 1 Corinthians 15:20, Revelation 1:5, Revelation 20:6). I have showed you that the binding is spiritual because Satan and His minions are spiritual. The demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6). Likewise, Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the Second Coming for a short season. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

                          Isaiah 65

                          I have addressed this countless time. You just refuse to accept the location of this. It is not the millennial period but the “new heavens and a new earth.” I will try again. Isaiah 65:17-21 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

                          The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate.

                          The first line of the debated Isaiah 65:20 in the original says:

                          Yaamiym `uwl `owd mishaam yihªyeh Lo'- yaamaayw et-yªmalee'

                          Literally:

                          Days babe more thence become not days even full

                          What is this telling us? Basically, in eternity, there will be no more dying for babies. The TLB says, “"No longer will babies die when only a few days old.” The TEV says, “Babies will no longer die in infancy.” The NLT says, “No longer will babies die when only a few days old.” This is good news for mankind and a situation that could only happen in the eternal state. This is an age to look forward to. The KJV simply says: "There shall be no more thence an infant of days."

                          It continues:

                          lo'- 'ªsher wªzaaqeen yaamuwt shaanaah mee'aah ben-

                          Literally:

                          not that an old man die a hundred yrs old

                          Here is more good news– now for older people: No longer will old men be dying at a hundred. So, whether one is really young or really old there will be no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown.

                          Death was the awful result of the fall. The curse brought death and decay upon every living organism – including all human life. The good news for man is that the introduction of the new heavens and new earth will witness the elimination of the curse. It will see the final downfall of death on earth. Only the wicked remain in a perpetual state of death – eternal death (the second death) – in the Lake of Fire. Our participation with Christ in His death, burial, and glorious resurrection lifts us from the power, pain and penalty of sin and the second death.

                          This reading tries in some way to impress the glory and splendour of the eternal existence within the new heavens and new earth upon the finite human mind. It reinforces the great truth that the curse will be removed. That is hard for us that have been subject to it in this life to fully comprehend.

                          The Holy Spirit then succinctly continues:

                          hana`ar Kiy shaanaah mee'aah ben-

                          Literally:

                          Child for a hundred yrs old

                          This is articulating in mere human terms what eternity is like for the believer. It is like an infant being an infant for a hundred years. This is what it is like. Man can in a small way relate to such an analogy, as it is done in language that he can in some way comprehend. As excellent as the KJV is, the original does not actually say or intimate (as it does) that “the child shall die an hundred years old”

                          This verse is simply trying to transmit a deeper meaning than what can be ordinarily conveyed in normal every-day phraseology. Isaiah was simply putting eternity in comprehendible human terms. Since we can’t really fully grasp eternity, the prophet chose an earthly way to explain it that the reader could better understand. Whether the Holy Spirit employed a hundred or a million years to convey this truth is not important, it is simply that eternity will be far removed from the here-and-now in time and character. We will not age like we do now. A hundred year old man will be like a child in eternity.

                          The reading concludes this thought by making a solemn passing allusion to the wicked and their lot in eternity:

                          wªhachowTe yªqulaa

                          Literally:

                          [but] the sinner [will be] accursed

                          The result of the fall and the damage of the curse continue on, however, not on the new heavens and new earth. The wicked have their own eternal abode – the Lake of Fire. The wicked will remain in the awful ongoing reality of the curse for time and for eternity. This is too terrible to even contemplate. This text is definitely not saying there will be mortal sinners on the new earth after the Coming of Christ, as some argue. It is just saying sinners will remain accursed (even a hundred years after the appearing of the new heavens and earth). It could easily have said a thousand years or a million years. In short: They will remain accursed for all eternity.

                          This correlates beautifully with Rev 21.

                          So, let us now move to 1 Corintians 15.
                          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                          WPM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by third hero View Post
                            Here is what I compare what you are attempting to do, the 2007 New England Patriots.

                            You see, until a virtual unknown receiver caught a 4th down and long pass in the Super Bowl, the Paztriots were undefeated. However, the catch happened, and then the NY Giants won the super bowl. Like the patriots, you say, "well let's look outside of Revelation 20, while premils stand on the fact that Revelation 20 exists. Therefore, like the NE Patriots, you have to accept that reality. I know you do not like that reality, much like the almost undefeated Patriots don't like the results of that Super Bowl, but you are going to have to accept it.

                            Most of the Premils here, myself included, accept the scripture as written, and because of that, you will not be able to turn anyone against what is actually written there. It says that Satan will be bound in the Abyss for 1000 years. It says that the Tribulation saints are going to rule this world with Christ for that entire time. It says that Satan will be released, and it also says that he will attempt a coup to take back the earth from the Lord. It also says that Our Heavenly Father will destroy all of the wicked by fire. Then, after all of that, the Lord announces judgment against all mankind, and heaven and earth disappear. We then see the judgment of mankind, including all of the dead. After alll of that, we see the New Earth come into being, with the city of God that wass promied the believers.

                            This is what we see in those scriptures, and this is what we believe. Like it or not, the scriptures state all of this. Therefore, no matter how much you want to deviate the discussion concerning the Millennium away from Revelation 20, Premils will continue to bring that back up, since it is scripture.
                            So will you now address 1 Cor 15 (which is the subject of this thread), which I believe rebuts the Premil position? Stop derailing it. We should build our theology on what Paul said in Romans 4:3 "what saith the scripture?," not what saith Premils on Rev 20. I am trying to get you to look at other Scripture on end-times that give us more explanation on the book of Revelation. In my opinion, people make revelation say anything, yet they circumvent the many clear passages in Scripture that describe the climactic last day.
                            "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                            http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                            WPM

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am trying to get you to look at other Scripture on end-times that give us more explanation on the book of Revelation. In my opinion, people make revelation say anything, yet they circumvent the many clear passages in Scripture that describe the climactic last day.
                              There are many scriptures outside rev that give you an almost complete picture of whats going to happen on the last day ,and what Christ is going to do when he comes again.
                              I believe the premill view of rev 20 turns that picture into a indistinguishable, blurry mess.

                              Paul wrote sometime in 50's AD, that no need for anything more to be written to you, because you know full well that the lord is going to come like a thief.
                              He is coming, so that we can put off this old flesh and blood existence and inherit the place he has gone to prepare --the new Heaven and the new Earth--in the Fathers house.
                              We know from Peter and Jesus that God has a day in store like he did in Noahs day, only this time the heavens as well as the earth will be destroyed, leaving only those who believed.
                              Peter urges his congregation to be people worthy, as they look to the new Heaven and the new Earth, looking for and hastening the day when Christ comes to destroy the old.

                              As soon as Christ comes the last day, fate is sealed. (God is patient , not slow in coming, but all are called to repent now ,before he comes)
                              We either are like him for we see him as he is,(ressurected- glorified) or we are judged, because they rejected him and his message.-Jn 12.





                              "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
                              25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
                              26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
                              27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
                              "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
                              13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


                              14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
                              15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
                              See the picture emerging of when Christ comes;

                              The last day to either glorify or judge.
                              The heavens/earth being nomore-,passing away
                              He renders to everone accordingly
                              seperates sheep from goats
                              harvests the wheat, and burns the tares at harvest time.
                              comes to afflict those,who afflicted his people, with everlasting seperation--on the same day as we are glorified and marvel at him.


                              For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
                              7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
                              8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
                              9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction
                              , away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
                              10 [U]when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

                              conclusion--today is the day to get saved, tomorrow maybe to late.


                              All these events of Christs second coming, which involves -,
                              the last day,-ressurection
                              Judgement,
                              hev and earth passing away,
                              eternal seperation from God...........and marveling at God

                              are all post Millenium events according to Rev.

                              Those who believe and are born again, partake of the first Ressurection, we are saved from this awful last day and the second death will not touch us...thanks be to Jesus Christ forever and ever
                              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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