Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

[tfcrew]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I stand corrected on the word there but in the context of the period involved, the church is not mentioned as being present. I think that is understood.

[ewq1938]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I stand corrected on the word there but in the context of the period involved, the church is not mentioned as being present. I think that is understood.

All passages that speak of the great tribulation like the gospels and Rev place the church ie: the saints and Christians as present during the GT. Some aren't gone while others remain...they all are present and remian through the entire GT. Many die, some do not and those that survive are called the ones that are "alive and remain" after that terrible time period.

[tfcrew]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I see that this is not a pre-trib rapture forum. That is OK. However, I would mention that the Lord warns that when he returns...it will be as a thief. Now...what do thieves do? Do they not steal things? Don't thieves take the most valuable items that they can find? What is the most valuable possession in this present world to God? Imagine the world without the believing Church...leaving the lukewarm and the hypocrites to figure it all out. Anyway that is what I believe. Take care all.

[ewq1938]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I see that this is not a pre-trib rapture forum. That is OK. However, I would mention that the Lord warns that when he returns...it will be as a thief.

Not for Christians.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

[tfcrew]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

That is exactly what I was saying.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

That is exactly what I was saying.

[ewq1938]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

That is exactly what I was saying.

That is exactly what I was saying.

The world will hate true Christians and won't be unhappy if Christ removes the church. Remember how they celebrate when the two prophets are killed. Either way, Christ returns as a thief to the world at the second coming which comes after the end of the trib.

[ForHisglory]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I stand corrected on the word there but in the context of the period involved, the church is not mentioned as being present. I think that is understood.

No, ONLY if you have a predisposition to ASSUME the church is not there.
In Galatians Paul only mentions the "church" once, and that is when he speaks of formerly persecuting it - yet no one thinks Paul was writing to anyone but the church.
In BOTH 1 and 2 Thessalonians Paul writes to the Church, and then there is no mention of the word "church" yet it is clear it is for the church and about the church.
No one would dispute that 1 Thess 4 rapture is about the "church" yet that word is not used.
It is basically an irrelevancy whether the word "church" is used or not. Revelation is SPECIFIED as being written to show His servants the things that must take place. WHo are His servants? Are you saying this is anyone other than the "church"?
The classic verse that pre-trib adherents point to as being the removal of the church:
Rev 4:1* After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”*

This makes NO mention of the "church". It is in fact address to John alone, yet somehow it is explained as being about the "church" without using the word "church". This shows that even in pre-trib thinking the word "church" is not necessarily needed to mean the church. In which case the whole basis for the argument falls apart.

[ForHisglory]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

I see that this is not a pre-trib rapture forum. That is OK. However, I would mention that the Lord warns that when he returns...it will be as a thief. Now...what do thieves do? Do they not steal things? Don't thieves take the most valuable items that they can find? What is the most valuable possession in this present world to God? Imagine the world without the believing Church...leaving the lukewarm and the hypocrites to figure it all out. Anyway that is what I believe. Take care all.

There are a few people who hold to pre-trib on this forum.
I used to, but it was working through my understanding that led me away from pre-trib to post-trib.
Yes Jesus does indeed warn, and we need to heed that warning. However we must understand what the purpose of the warning is, and who it is directed for.
The most valuable possession is not the church per se, but the lives of people who could become the church.
God is patient NOT WANTING anyone to perish.
When He comes as a thief it is NOT to take away the church but to destroy the ungodly.
For us, He comes not as a thief, for that would mean He does NOT have ownership of us, but as redeemer.
The picture of "like a thief" actually speaks of being at an unexpected time, which will NOT be unexpected by the Church, but unexpected by the World.

[tfcrew]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

A post-trib rapture disavows Jesus' imminent return which is what He meant when He said 'as a thief'. In other words, it [the rapture] could be today...it could be tomorrow or next week.
The Lord states...'watch' --- according to a post trib outlook there would be no need to until after the tribulation period is ending. It is like date setting because one can figure 42 months after the anti-christ declares himself God then the end comes as it is taught. The idea that thieves steal and that is what thieves do has been ignored. For this and dozens of other reasons...a post trib view is unsound.

[ewq1938]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

A post-trib rapture disavows Jesus' imminent return

Yes it does and that's because Paul said Christ cannot simply return at any moment and listed two major events that must happen first which means any "imminent return" is false doctrine.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[tfcrew]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

Yes it does and that's because Paul said Christ cannot simply return at any moment and listed two major events that must happen first which means any "imminent return" is false doctrine.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That is taken out of context. 'That day' does not refer to the rapture. It refers to the the day of Christ. In the OT it is called the day of the Lord. IOW the tribulation and the kingdom to come.
Explain how if the rapture does not come until the end of the tribulation...who will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth after the tribulation...why would a sheep and goats judgment be necessary?....Christians that die before the tribulation--must be the lucky ones? They won't have to go through the horror of it all?
What about...Revelation 3:10.... “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
1 Thessalonians 1:10 says that Jesus rescues believers from the wrath to come. " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
“And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26-30 [Ark=Rapture]

[ewq1938]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

That is taken out of context. 'That day' does not refer to the rapture. It refers to the the day of Christ.

All part of the same day. Jesus returns to the clouds and the living and raptured to meet him. None of that can happen until the falling away and revealing of the man of sin happen.

[ForHisglory]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

A post-trib rapture disavows Jesus' imminent return which is what He meant when He said 'as a thief'. In other words, it [the rapture] could be today...it could be tomorrow or next week.
The Lord states...'watch' --- according to a post trib outlook there would be no need to until after the tribulation period is ending. It is like date setting because one can figure 42 months after the anti-christ declares himself God then the end comes as it is taught. The idea that thieves steal and that is what thieves do has been ignored. For this and dozens of other reasons...a post trib view is unsound.

I 100% disavow Jesus' imminent return.
This is a Doctrine of Pre-Trib.
When you realise it is false then you are forced to also bin Pre-Trib as a valid Doctrine.
The Rapture CANNOT come today. It CANNOT come tomorrow. It CANNOT come UNTIL the things which we are told will happen first have happened.
There are MANY things which we are told will happen first.
One is the gospel being preached in all the world. Has that happened yet? If NOT then the Rapture can not happen.
Another one is that the man of sin must sit in the Temple of God declaring himself as god. Has that happened yet? Some argue against a literal fulfillment, even those who generally claim they believe in literal fulfillment of prophecy. Yet Paul explicitly told those who thought that they had missed the rapture that they hadn't because this had not happened.
As you work through scripture and connect the various prophecies together you find that Jesus TELLS us when He is coming. It will be at the End of the Feast of Booths.
Until we see other signs fulfilled we CANNOT claim to know which year this will be.
When the AC makes a strong agreement with many - the start of the final 7 years, then we can KNOW when Jesus will return, but not even then will we be certain. There are many agreements made by many different nations. The greatest certainty will come when the Two Witnesses start their ministry, but even then some will say these people are sending plagues and death, and this is NOT the love of God which we preach and so will reject this sign.

Watch simply means being in the right view, aligning our view with His. Not walking in darkness.
Mat 24:45* “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?*
Mat 24:46* Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.*
Mat 24:47* Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.*
Mat 24:48* But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’*
Mat 24:49* and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,*
Mat 24:50* the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know*

Notice the CONTRAST - the one who walks in the light is the faithful and wise servant, who gives food at the proper time.
The one who chooses to walk in darkness is the one who will be caught out, along with the world.

[ForHisglory]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

That is taken out of context. 'That day' does not refer to the rapture. It refers to the the day of Christ. In the OT it is called the day of the Lord. IOW the tribulation and the kingdom to come.

The Day of the Rapture is indeed one of the Days of Christ.
Have you not read this:
Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

Notice Jesus states there are more than one day which is His. Some think this only refers to past days, yet Jesus projects this into the future.
Also note that this is NOT the day of the Rapture. We know this for a FACT because Jesus say flee!
Now when we are raptured there is NO fleeing, for we are caught up to Him in the clouds, we cannot flee that.

Explain how if the rapture does not come until the end of the tribulation...who will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth after the tribulation

Those who are alive at His coming

...why would a sheep and goats judgment be necessary?

This is NOT a judgement of Christians, but of those who are alive at His coming.

....Christians that die before the tribulation--must be the lucky ones? They won't have to go through the horror of it all?

Yes, and no. Paul took it as a honour to share in Christ's sufferings. This should be our attitude also.

What about...Revelation 3:10.... “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

Who was that portion written to?
Rev 3:7* “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.*
Rev 3:8* “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.*
Rev 3:9* Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

This was for the Church in Philadelphia ONLY. Not the churches of Laodicea or Thyatira, but ONLY this one church. Why? Because they have ALREADY patiently endured.
This church no longer exists. This happened in Roman times.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 says that Jesus rescues believers from the wrath to come. " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
“And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26-30 [Ark=Rapture]

The wrath to come is NOT speaking of the GT but of he Lake of Fire.
However as some who is not only post-trib but also post-wrath (meaning the trumpets and vials), I would highlight certain statements made in Revelation which show hat the saints are then when the vials are poured out:
Rev 16:15* (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)*

This verse very clearly shows that Jesus has still NOT come as a Thief in the Night! He is COMING. Yet this is stated AFTER the 6th vial has been poured out. One more vial remains and THEN He comes.

Rev 16:2* So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Note here that this vial ONLY afflicts those who bear the Mark of the Beast. This is NOT everybody. IOW God's wrath is TARGETED.
We can read the same with the Trumpets:
Rev 9:4* They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Here those who are NOT God's people are tormented, but God's people are NOT!

These show that God's people will be there on earth AT THIS TIME. 1 Thess 1:10 is a statement for ALL God's people.

Now notice this:
Rev 18:4* Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;*

So God's people ARE in Babylon at this time, but called out or suffer the consequences. This picture matches that of Lot who was in Sodom.

Finally we have the events those in Israel went through when in Egypt where God spared those of Israel though they were living in the same land.

[David Taylor]

Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

In Revelation 2 and 3 the church and the churches are mentioned several times. After Rev 3, the word church is not seen again. Only-- "come up hither" ..Rev 4:1
That is the rapture.

Tfcrew
If usage of the word ‘church’ in a verse denotes the presence of the church, and lack of use of the word ‘church’ denotes it’s absence, we are in a lot of trouble using that kind of faulty logic.

The word ‘church’ isn’t used any between Revelation 4:1 thru Rev 22:15.
Not on earth.
Not in Heaven.
Not one time.

So applying your logic. Every member of the church in Heaven and Earth must be obliterated out of existence before 4:1.

Likewise, the word church is not found in 99.86% of all NT verses.
(‘Church’ is missing from 7,886 of 8,000 verses).

So who were the 99.86% of NT verses written to that do not mention the ‘church’?

See how silly and illogical now the premise is of ‘the church is missing’ from Rev 4-22?