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  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I disagree with everything you say, because I come at it from a different perspective. The 6 things in 9.24 indicate those things, which are Messianic things, are fulfilled by the end of the 70th Week. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary followed this, and was not a part of the 70th Week.

    The 70th Week was about the confirmation of God's covenant with the Jews, and about the death of Messiah. That was the 70th Week. What followed was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    But you're entitled to your opinion. There's nothing wrong with my "logic" at all. Many credible Christian scholars have held to the same position. And their logic is not invalid simply because you have a different point of view.
    You may have a different perspective. That is fine.
    I AGREE with you that ALL of the 6 things are fulfilled by the end of the 70th week.
    The city and sanctuary are NOT part of the 70 weeks, and we AGREE there also.

    Where we differ, and perhaps this is a good place to leave it, is that the 70th week was NOT about the confirmation of God's OLD covenant with the Jews. It is about God's FINAL solution for the Jews.
    It is about the problem Daniel was praying about, a people who were unrighteous and undeserving and who needed saving, yet who were UNDER the Law and the consequence of the Law was destruction.
    So God said there is 70 weeks for the Jews to be sorted, after which comes His kingdom and His righteousness, and the end to prophecy and vision.
    This ties in 100% to the other prophecy God gave to Daniel in Dan 7 and which Daniel explained to Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 2. Each prophecy ENDS (finds its completion) in the coming of the kingdom of God.
    Therefore there are ONLY two logical ways to understand ALL three prophecies.
    1) That they speak UP TO the time of the coming of the Messiah, and His Kingdom being introduced into the world.
    2) That they speak UP TO the time of the return of the Messiah, and His kingdom ruling the world.

    ALL your argumentation is disjointed as you have some of it about 1) and other points to 2).
    I hold that they ALL point to 2) the return of the Messiah.

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I was addressing the "logic" of your argument. I am however applying YOUR logic CONSISTENTLY, which you are NOT doing.


    Actually there is a REQUIREMENT for the desolator to be part of the 70th week, because verse 27 states it is the one week (which remains being the 70th week).
    Additionally the ENTIRE prophecy from verse 24 is about what happens in order for verse 24 to be fulfilled - it includes the statement of sealing the vision and prophet/prophecy. So verse 25 to verse 27 is ALL occurring BEFORE the 70th week is over.
    Further more the WHOLE prophecy of Dan 9 is WITHIN the CONTEXT of Daniel's prayer for his people, and this is God's answer for the final solution for Daniel's people.
    I disagree with everything you say, because I come at it from a different perspective. The 6 things in 9.24 indicate those things, which are Messianic things, are fulfilled by the end of the 70th Week. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary followed this, and was not a part of the 70th Week.

    The 70th Week was about the confirmation of God's covenant with the Jews, and about the death of Messiah. That was the 70th Week. What followed was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    But you're entitled to your opinion. There's nothing wrong with my "logic" at all. Many credible Christian scholars have held to the same position. And their logic is not invalid simply because you have a different point of view.

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    You're not addressing, however, the logic of my argument--just disagreeing with it. We should agree to disagree then?
    I was addressing the "logic" of your argument. I am however applying YOUR logic CONSISTENTLY, which you are NOT doing.

    My view is that the end of the desolator is *not* part of the 70th Week. It is not said in the passage to be so--you are just assuming it is so, or arguing that it is logical to assume so from your point of view.
    From my pov it is *not* logical to assume that the end of the desolator is part of the 70th Week. Nor is it automatic to assume that the coming of this "righteousness" requires an end to the age. I believe that this prophecy concerns the 1st Coming of Messiah to fulfill these 6 things mentioned in vs. 24. One of those things is the revelation of his eternal righteousness, which is necessary for our salvation.
    Please let's not get into this infernal "yes it is, no it isn't" scenario? I think we've made our arguments--let's let the chips fall where they may? You offer zero proof that the end of the desolator has a required placement within the 70th Week. Please don't purely *assert* it to be so!
    Actually there is a REQUIREMENT for the desolator to be part of the 70th week, because verse 27 states it is the one week (which remains being the 70th week).
    Additionally the ENTIRE prophecy from verse 24 is about what happens in order for verse 24 to be fulfilled - it includes the statement of sealing the vision and prophet/prophecy. So verse 25 to verse 27 is ALL occurring BEFORE the 70th week is over.
    Further more the WHOLE prophecy of Dan 9 is WITHIN the CONTEXT of Daniel's prayer for his people, and this is God's answer for the final solution for Daniel's people.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    There are 2 ways to look at the 70 Weeks of Daniel, as ending with the 1st Coming of Messiah, or as ending at the 2nd Coming of Messiah. Depending on your viewpoint, you will view the prophecies differently.

    If you see the 70th Week as fulfilled in the 1st Coming of Messiah, then the mentioned destruction of "the city and the sanctuary" will follow *after* the 70th Week. But if you see the 70th Week as completing the NT age, at the 2nd Coming of Jesus, then everything, the "cutting off of the Anointed one," and the "desolation of the city and the sanctuary" must take place in or before the 70th Week.

    This last position, that the 70th Week completes the NT age, is utterly illogical to me. I therefore adhere to the position that the 70th Week was fulfilled in the 1st Coming of Christ. The desolation of the city and the sanctuary followed after the end of the 70th Week in the generation of Christ. It took place in 70 AD.
    Last edited by randyk; May 6th 2019, 02:14 PM.

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As the desolator ends IS in verse 27 and IS within the 70 weeks, so it IS pertinent to your argument. You seem to simply try to take it out as if it is NOT in the verse.
    The mission of the Messiah is NOT complete, as everlasting righteousness is YET TO BE brought in. This is what the 70 weeks speaks into. The END of the issues with Daniel's people, because everlasting righteousness is then the reality.
    You're not addressing, however, the logic of my argument--just disagreeing with it. We should agree to disagree then?

    My view is that the end of the desolator is *not* part of the 70th Week. It is not said in the passage to be so--you are just assuming it is so, or arguing that it is logical to assume so from your point of view.

    From my pov it is *not* logical to assume that the end of the desolator is part of the 70th Week. Nor is it automatic to assume that the coming of this "righteousness" requires an end to the age. I believe that this prophecy concerns the 1st Coming of Messiah to fulfill these 6 things mentioned in vs. 24. One of those things is the revelation of his eternal righteousness, which is necessary for our salvation.

    Please let's not get into this infernal "yes it is, no it isn't" scenario? I think we've made our arguments--let's let the chips fall where they may? You offer zero proof that the end of the desolator has a required placement within the 70th Week. Please don't purely *assert* it to be so!

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    The "end of the desolator" does not appear to have anything to do with my argument. You are simply asserting your belief that it "must be" part of the 70th Week, which of course I don't agree with.

    Bringing in "everlasting righteousness" has to do with the mission of Messiah, as I've stated elsewhere. It did not have to do with completion of the mission of saving national Israel. Rather, it had to do with displaying Messianic righteousness for their future salvation. We now have access to God's saving righteousness because Christ has already come and displayed his righteousness in the context of mercy.
    As the desolator ends IS in verse 27 and IS within the 70 weeks, so it IS pertinent to your argument. You seem to simply try to take it out as if it is NOT in the verse.
    The mission of the Messiah is NOT complete, as everlasting righteousness is YET TO BE brought in. This is what the 70 weeks speaks into. The END of the issues with Daniel's people, because everlasting righteousness is then the reality.

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I think this is going nowhere.
    As ALL of verse 27 occurs WITHIN the 70th week then this means ALL of verse 26 MUST occur WITHIN the 70th week.
    Yes, I told you that. And that's because you are just arguing your position vs. my position, instead of trying to prove my parallelism illogical. My position does *not* hold that all of vs. 26 must occur within the 70th week. In that verse we see...

    1) the Anointed One put to death, and
    2) the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple

    The Messiah was put to death in the 70th Week, completing the 6 things we are told must be completed in 9.24.
    The temple was destroyed in 70 AD, *after* the 70th Week.

    It then follows logically, if we are dealing with a parallelism, that the same order follows in verse 27.
    1) the Messiah confirms, through his death, God's covenant with the Jews in the 70th Week, and
    2) temple worship ends *after* the 70th Week, in 70 AD.

    Originally posted by ForHisglory
    Actually it does.
    Dan 9:27* And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.

    At the end of this is the end of the one week and the end of the 70 weeks. It includes the decreed end being poured out on the desolator, the one who makes desolate, which you tie into 70 AD, which would therefore make your desolator Titus, which means you have this occurring sometime around 81 AD.

    Yet verse 24 states clearly that the END of the prophecy is also the time when everlasting righteousness is brought in - so did that occur in 81 AD?

    You through in prophetic parallelism as if it were a reality, and then ignore the actually clear picture given within Dan 9 whereby ALL is complete at the end of the 70 weeks, EXACTLY in line with Daniel's prayer at the START of the passage.
    The "end of the desolator" does not appear to have anything to do with my argument. You are simply asserting your belief that it "must be" part of the 70th Week, which of course I don't agree with.

    Bringing in "everlasting righteousness" has to do with the mission of Messiah, as I've stated elsewhere. It did not have to do with completion of the mission of saving national Israel. Rather, it had to do with displaying Messianic righteousness for their future salvation. We now have access to God's saving righteousness because Christ has already come and displayed his righteousness in the context of mercy.

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  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    You were arguing my parallelism in vss. 26-27 didn't work. You haven't shown that. If vs. 27 is a parallel of vs. 26, then *both* refer to the 70th Week and to a period following, in which the temple is destroyed. You are just arguing *your own position,* and not disproving my proposed parallelism!
    I think this is going nowhere.
    As ALL of verse 27 occurs WITHIN the 70th week then this means ALL of verse 26 MUST occur WITHIN the 70th week.

    There is *nothing* in vs. 27 that prohibits a period of time *following the 70th Week,* if indeed we are comparing the events of vs. 27 with the events of vs. 26. In vs. 26 we have the Messiah's death *within the 70th Week,* and we also have the fall of Jerusalem, which *follows the 70th Week.*
    Actually it does.
    Dan 9:27* And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    At the end of this is the end of the one week and the end of the 70 weeks. It includes the decreed end being poured out on the desolator, the one who makes desolate, which you tie into 70 AD, which would therefore make your desolator Titus, which means you have this occurring sometime around 81 AD.

    Yet verse 24 states clearly that the END of the prophecy is also the time when everlasting righteousness is brought in - so did that occur in 81 AD?

    You through in prophetic parallelism as if it were a reality, and then ignore the actually clear picture given within Dan 9 whereby ALL is complete at the end of the 70 weeks, EXACTLY in line with Daniel's prayer at the START of the passage.

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  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes Randy on the same page

    70 weeks is about redemption and anointing the most Holy place so we can boldly approach the throne of grace.
    To boldly go where no man has gone before thanks to the blood of Jesus.
    Life is in some ways stranger than Science Fiction!

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffweeder
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, and I would argue that the same thing is said twice, once in vs. 26 and again in vs. 27. This is a common form in biblical literature--a parallelism.

    1) Jesus dies. The temple is destroyed. This is in vs. 26.
    2) Jesus confirms a covenant with the Jews, and because of vs 26 we know that it is through his death. And then the temple is destroyed by the Abomination of Desolation, a Roman Army. This is in vs. 27.

    Both verses repeat the same things, adding details. Do you see it this way too, Jeff? We seem to be in agreement on much of this.
    Yes Randy on the same page

    70 weeks is about redemption and anointing the most Holy place so we can boldly approach the throne of grace.
    To boldly go where no man has gone before thanks to the blood of Jesus.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Correct. Jesus anointed the most Holy place when the veil was rent.
    Destroying the sanctuary is another thing altogether though, and came about through their rejection of Messiah decades later.
    Yes, and I would argue that the same thing is said twice, once in vs. 26 and again in vs. 27. This is a common form in biblical literature--a parallelism.

    1) Jesus dies. The temple is destroyed. This is in vs. 26.
    2) Jesus confirms a covenant with the Jews, and because of vs 26 we know that it is through his death. And then the temple is destroyed by the Abomination of Desolation, a Roman Army. This is in vs. 27.

    Both verses repeat the same things, adding details. Do you see it this way too, Jeff? We seem to be in agreement on much of this.

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry but verse 27 ends with the end of the 70th week. The prophecy is COMPLETELY fulfilled at the end of the 70 weeks:
    Dan 9:24* Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

    Very simple - 70 weeks are given. Now IF you accept that there is MORE than 70 weeks, THEN your claim that the 70 weeks is contiguous is nonsense.
    You were arguing my parallelism in vss. 26-27 didn't work. You haven't shown that. If vs. 27 is a parallel of vs. 26, then *both* refer to the 70th Week and to a period following, in which the temple is destroyed. You are just arguing *your own position,* and not disproving my proposed parallelism!

    There is *nothing* in vs. 27 that prohibits a period of time *following the 70th Week,* if indeed we are comparing the events of vs. 27 with the events of vs. 26. In vs. 26 we have the Messiah's death *within the 70th Week,* and we also have the fall of Jerusalem, which *follows the 70th Week.*

    A logical parallelism would have vs. 27 saying the same thing as that expressed in vs. 26, both the death of Christ in the 70th Weeks and the destruction of the temple *following* the 70th Week. But you're back to attacking my position--not arguing the logic of it as a parallelism.

    Originally posted by ForHisglory
    Dan 9:27* And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.

    Here we have the decreed end in verse 27 which fits the 70 weeks that are decreed.
    Now this is a very simple thing done in the prophecy. It tells you the beginning, middle and end. The end of the 70 weeks is the end of the prophecy, and the end of the desolator.
    Note that you have the abomination and desolation as being part of this final week.

    Are you saying that verse 27 is NOT about the last week of the 70?
    Yes, I'm arguing, and I thought we *both* were arguing, the legitimacy of a possible parallelism between the two verses? Vs. 27 is about the confirming of a covenant by Messiah in the 70th Week, and also about the period following, in which the temple is destroyed. The AoD, in my view, is all about the destruction of the temple in the generation of Christ, but *not* in the last Week.

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  • jeffweeder
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry but verse 27 ends with the end of the 70th week. The prophecy is COMPLETELY fulfilled at the end of the 70 weeks:
    Dan 9:24* “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
    Correct. Jesus anointed the most Holy place when the veil was rent.
    Destroying the sanctuary is another thing altogether though, and came about through their rejection of Messiah decades later.

    Leave a comment:


  • ForHisglory
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I have no idea why you think the AoD has to be fulfilled by the end of the 70th Week, according to vs 27? I certainly don't believe that. And it's not my position.

    In vs 26 Messiah dies, and the temple is destroyed. Messiah dies in the 70th Week, and the temple is destroyed *after* the 70th Week.

    It's the same thing in vs 27. Messiah confirms his covenant with the Jewish People--he does that by dying. And then the temple is destroyed by an abominable army standing in the vicinity of the temple. Messiah dies during the 70th Week. And the destruction of the temple follows *after* the 70th Week, in the same generation as the Messiah's death. This is just how the Olivet Discourse presents it.
    Sorry but verse 27 ends with the end of the 70th week. The prophecy is COMPLETELY fulfilled at the end of the 70 weeks:
    Dan 9:24* “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

    Very simple - 70 weeks are given. Now IF you accept that there is MORE than 70 weeks, THEN your claim that the 70 weeks is contiguous is nonsense.

    Dan 9:27* And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Here we have the decreed end in verse 27 which fits the 70 weeks that are decreed.
    Now this is a very simple thing done in the prophecy. It tells you the beginning, middle and end. The end of the 70 weeks is the end of the prophecy, and the end of the desolator.
    Note that you have the abomination and desolation as being part of this final week.

    Are you saying that verse 27 is NOT about the last week of the 70?

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: holy ground in the NT?

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IF you see them as parallel then I am NOT misrepresenting your view. I am HIGHLIGHTING the ABSURDITY in your view, which you are UNWILLING to deal with.

    Problem which you still are missing.
    In verse 27 point 2 - this happens DURING the 70th week according to THAT verse.
    The fulfillment of the WHOLE prophecy you claim has happened, and Daniel was told it would ALL be fulfilled by the END of the 70th week.

    Your other point, debated elsewhere is that you claim that the 70 weeks MUST be contiguous, and I have noted there is no such requirement, only a possibility.
    I have no idea why you think the AoD has to be fulfilled by the end of the 70th Week, according to vs 27? I certainly don't believe that. And it's not my position.

    In vs 26 Messiah dies, and the temple is destroyed. Messiah dies in the 70th Week, and the temple is destroyed *after* the 70th Week.

    It's the same thing in vs 27. Messiah confirms his covenant with the Jewish People--he does that by dying. And then the temple is destroyed by an abominable army standing in the vicinity of the temple. Messiah dies during the 70th Week. And the destruction of the temple follows *after* the 70th Week, in the same generation as the Messiah's death. This is just how the Olivet Discourse presents it.

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