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In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

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  • #61
    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    So, you are saying that the Ottoman empire was really a continuation of Rome? That's a stretch. Alexander's conquests were much the same. He fancied himself as the next Persian Emperor keeping Persian institutions and customs intact. He would have made Babylon his capital if it were not for his untimely death. Yet we all treat Greece as separate to the previous empire. I can't accept your construct DD.
    No problem, the concept of the Ottomans taking over the Roman Empire was never palatable to the west, and I am not expecting it to suddenly become palatable now. Nevertheless the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire continued to retain the title of Caesar of Rome, even though more well known by the title Sultan.

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    • #62
      Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
      I see. Thanks for explaining. So, Daniels 4th beast rose over 2000 years ago and still continues to exist up until the second coming when Christ defeats it? Hopefully I am closer to understanding your position.
      Each beast covers a longish period of time.
      The first beast covers a period of around 200 years (from Cyrus 559 BC to Alexander 325 BC)
      The second beast covers a longer period of time of around 2000 years (from the founding of the Republic of Rome in 510 BC to the end of Byzantium in 1453 AD)
      The third beast covers a period of around 300 years (from Philip uniting the Greek states in 338 BC to the end of the Ptolemaic kingdom in 31 BC)
      The 4th beast covers the period of the Caliphate for 1300 years (from 632 AD to 1924 AD)
      The horns of the 4th beast are yet to appear.
      This matches the Feet of Daniel 2 being the Caliphate, but the 10 toes are yet to come.

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      • #63
        Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

        Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
        I agree that beasts do have an association with demon kings, but they also have an association with kingdoms. When a kingdom falls, so does it's demon prince. Even the demons in the pigs were begging not to be sent to the abyss, I'm sure it has more than one inhabitant, not only Apollyon who is in that pit.

        In 70 AD Israel fell due to its disobedience, that demon prince most involved with leading Israel into disobedience would have fallen too. It is that demon pirnce that would have arisen in the end-times. Knowing that the final Israel will also be in sin, it is only logical that it would be under the influence of a demon prince, as in fact all countries are.

        And of all the countries in the world, which country's re-establishment would amaze only non-believers as per Rev 17:8
        The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

        Explain in your view, how the inhabitants of the earth will be amazed at the re-arising of Apollyon? What will unsaved Mrs smith see, that you as a believer won't be amazed about, but she will? How will she interpret an ancient Apollyon re-arisen, how did an ancient Apollyon even manifest?

        These are all questions my view clearly answers, a demon prince is expressed in a kingdom (4 kings, 4 princes in Daniel 7). A beast that disappears to re-arise
        is a kingdom that disappears to re-arise. And this is why only the unsaved are amazed according to v8 because the saved were expecting a certain kingdom to re-arise. We expect the antichrist to be revealed in Jerusalem, in Israel.
        I provided more than is sufficient in scripture to prove that the beast that was and is and is to come is not Israel. On the contrary, you are ignoring sound scripture in favour of conjecture. What you are missing is that the Beasts are kings and kingdoms that oppressed Daniel's people, not that Israel itself, as a "kingdom" is a beast!

        Ezekiel 37 described Israel's fate from AD70 to 1948 as "dry bones" not as a beast that was, is not and will come.

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        • #64
          Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          I provided more than is sufficient in scripture to prove that the beast that was and is and is to come is not Israel. On the contrary, you are ignoring sound scripture in favour of conjecture. What you are missing is that the Beasts are kings and kingdoms that oppressed Daniel's people, not that Israel itself, as a "kingdom" is a beast!

          Ezekiel 37 described Israel's fate from AD70 to 1948 as "dry bones" not as a beast that was, is not and will come.
          I certainly wouldn't associate the 1948 Israel as the dry bones coming to life. Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39 are pretty clear Israel needs to repent before the day of the Lord. So that verse isn't a clear proof verse, Israel has not got a high proportion of citizens that are saved and understand the truth, just like the Israel just prior to 70 AD. And God will send Gog against them just like he sent the Roman army.

          As for your other proof verses, I'm curious why Apollyon would torture his own followers, any ideas?

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          • #65
            Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

            Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
            The problem with that is Daniel's 4th beast is the last beast. There isn't a fifth beast. It's destroyed by fire after a day of judgment which matches Rev 19 where the beast is also destroyed by fire at the same timeframe.

            The problem with that is Daniel's 4th beast is the last beast. There isn't a fifth beast. It's destroyed by fire after a day of judgment which matches Rev 19 where the beast is also destroyed by fire at the same timeframe.
            No problemo. I agree.

            Daniel's 4th beast IS the last beast. There isn't a fifth beast. It's destroyed by fire after a day of judgment which matches Rev 19 where the beast is also destroyed by fire...

            But that same beast which kept Martin Luther and the Waldensians on the run during the Foxe Book Days never died. It got very weak after it's nearly mortal head wound in 1798, but it started getting back on it's feet again in 1929 with the help of Benito Mussolini during the Lateran treaty and has been building momentum every since. The composite beast just took a quick 131 or so year intermission:
            "Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

            The composite beast is here again now, represented by the governments and religions of the world. And we are the woman's offspring that the dragon makes war with. The crowns have shifted to the horns, to the governments. The dragon has influenced the many nations and peoples and tongues to vote the thing in. This is how it has risen from the sea of many peoples and nations. The dragon gives it his power and his throne and his great authority. Then in return it opens it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. Saying unheard of things against the God of gods.

            The many nations and peoples around the world represent and bring with them their seven main religious belief systems. These are the seven heads, the seven mountains, with blasphemous names written on their heads. Every single person alive on the Earth can trace a connection to one of these heads, no exceptions.

            Five were fallen, proved false, in AD95 by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. They are still all here with us today but are fallen. Like how a fallen woman, a fallen church, would have fell from grace or have been proved as a false belief system. I don't know why that's so hard to explain. I got to find a better way to word it. "I've fallen and I can't get up.

            Cycberseeker should be able to see it, or at least has a better chance to see it. But it IS a pretty elaborate picture to attempt to paint in a forum note. The identification of that "head" that was healed from the mortal wound received in 1798, would be a hint that the other six have to be something of the same kind. A religion, or a belief system.

            1) The Netherlands (2000)
            2) Belgium (2003)
            3) Canada (2005)
            4) Spain (2005)
            5) South Africa (2006)
            6) Norway (2009)
            7) Sweden (2009)
            8) Argentina (2010)
            9) Iceland (2010)
            10) Portugal (2010)
            11) Denmark (2012)
            12) Brazil (2013)
            13) England and Wales (2013)
            14) France (2013)
            15) New Zealand (2013)
            16) Uruguay (2013)
            17) Luxembourg (2014)
            18) Scotland (2014)
            19) Finland: (signed 2015, effective 2017)
            20) Ireland: (2015)
            21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 Days------->Sun/Moon
            21) United States: (2015)<-------1290 Days------->EofW

            https://www.christianpost.com/news/b...man-a-man.html

            http://www.christianpost.com/voice/f...le-a-male.html

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            • #66
              Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

              Originally posted by Dave Watchman View Post
              every single person alive on the Earth can trace a connection to one of these heads, no exceptions.
              The heads are mountains not people. The only individuals mentioned in Rev 13 and 17 are the ten kings that have ten kingdoms within those 7 mountains, the FP who is the AC, and then Rev 17 mentions 7 consecutive kings, many that had fallen by Johns time. Those guys aren't mountains of the last beast because the mountains aren't people and they aren't consecutive and none have fallen in the past.

              Originally posted by Dave Watchman View Post
              every single person alive on the Earth can trace a connection to one of these heads, no exceptions.
              The heads are mountains not people. The only individuals mentioned in Rev 13 and 17 are the ten kings that have ten kingdoms within those 7 mountains, the FP who is the AC, and then Rev 17 mentions 7 consecutive kings, many that had fallen by Johns time. Those guys aren't mountains of the last beast because the mountains aren't people and they aren't consecutive and none have fallen in the past.
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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              • #67
                Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                [QUOTE]
                Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                I certainly wouldn't associate the 1948 Israel as the dry bones coming to life.
                Agree however could the dry bones be the lost tribes found? The man child, a nation being born in a day?

                As for your other proof verses, I'm curious why Apollyon would torture his own followers, any ideas?
                The spirits which ascend in Rev 9 do torture people in the sense of an evil spirit entering a man. However the end game is for control. As the people indwelled with the evil spirit become Satan army and march against God. Like robots.

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                • #68
                  Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                  [QUOTE]
                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The heads are mountains not people. The only individuals mentioned in Rev 13 and 17 are the ten kings that have ten kingdoms within those 7 mountains, the FP who is the AC, and then Rev 17 mentions 7 consecutive kings, many that had fallen by Johns time. Those guys aren't mountains of the last beast because the mountains aren't people and they aren't consecutive and none have fallen in the past.
                  The 7 mountains are the parallel to God's 7 churches. The 7 kings to the 7 angels.

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                  • #69
                    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                    The 7 mountains are the parallel to God's 7 churches. The 7 kings to the 7 angels.
                    No, the heads are mountains. Candlesticks represent churches. Angels are stars. Kings are horns. You can't mix these things without error.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      No, the heads are mountains. Candlesticks represent churches. Angels are stars. Kings are horns. You can't mix these things without error.
                      There are 7 heads AND 7 mountains Satan's kingdom
                      There are 7 churches (candlesticks) and 7 angels (stars) God's kingdom

                      The 7 heads and 7 mountains are the equivalent to the 7 churches and 7 angels.

                      Satan's kingdom has churches (followers) and leaders of those churches.

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                      • #71
                        Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        There are 7 heads AND 7 mountains Satan's kingdom
                        Nope. The beast rises with 7 heads and we are told later that those represent mountains.


                        The 7 heads and 7 mountains are the equivalent to the 7 churches and 7 angels.
                        There is not two separate groups of heads and mountains.

                        Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                          This is a very serious issue the Church has failed to understand.

                          First, notice that the horn speaks blasphemy, just like the false prophet of Revelation 13 that speaks as a dragon.

                          These two are the same. Secondly, the horns are not the "AC" (antichrist). The antichrist is misnomer, rather the "mystery of lawlessness" is a spirit of man-worship which rises from within (the midst) at the end times.

                          The false prophet ... is a horn, with a mouth, and uproots 3 horns. Knowing that the nation of Israel is a false prophecy, and that in fact, Israel is the manifestation of Gog and the surrounding nations occupying God's holy land as impostors.... We then know that the 3 horns uprooted are:


                          Egypt
                          Jordan (Ammon)
                          Syria
                          [1948]
                          As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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                          • #73
                            Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                            Originally posted by Aijalon View Post

                            The false prophet ... is a horn, with a mouth, and uproots 3 horns.
                            The FP is mentioned in Rev. Nowhere in Rev does the FP uproot any horns. All ten horns remain firmly planted throughout the entire trib.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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                            • #74
                              Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                              Originally posted by Aijalon
                              .... We then know that the 3 horns uprooted are:


                              Egypt
                              Jordan (Ammon)
                              Syria
                              [1948]
                              Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didnít include Jordan within its boundaries, so youíll need to replace that option.
                              "Your name and renown
                              is the desire of our hearts."
                              (Isaiah 26:8)

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

                                Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                                Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didn’t include Jordan within its boundaries, so you’ll need to replace that option.
                                They don't arise from the previous beast. They are part of the beast:

                                Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

                                It's a current beast not a previous beast the ten horn arise from. It's exactly the same with the final empire beast in Rev 13:1.

                                Originally posted by Cyberseeker View Post
                                Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didnít include Jordan within its boundaries, so youíll need to replace that option.
                                They don't arise from the previous beast. They are part of the beast:

                                Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

                                It's a current beast not a previous beast the ten horn arise from. It's exactly the same with the final empire beast in Rev 13:1.
                                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                                Comment

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